As we all start moving forward into store championship season, people will be looking to modify fleets. How do you think the meta has shifted as far as being able to pull off a last first? How many activations are required to do it? It seems that 3 and 4 ship fleets are coming to the fore, but a Strategic Advisor turns those into faked 4 and 5 activations. What are your thoughts and feelings on the matter?

Tabling is a thing again. Keep that on mind.

2-7 activations is the major answer. 2 if you're going Imp super heavy into activation quality, 7 if you're running MSU. With Pryce and Bail existing, though, keep in mind they can screw with your plan to last-first someone.

Generally, bog standard activations is 4-5. So aim for 6-7 if you desperately need to Last-first someone.... But keep in mind you still might not get your chance to do so.

To reliably last first most of the time you need 6 activations because 5 ship fleets are a common sight. Also you should sacrifice to Cuthulhu the great old one to insure that you don't run into Bail or Pryce. Six ship fleets happen occasionally and 7 ship fleets are a viable option but rare.
So I settled for six (5+SA) personally.

I've settled on 5+SA as well. Really mitigates the weaknesses of going second, and is usually enough to last-first someone.

It's no longer at all reliable and fleets depending solely on last+first(which were never that strong against better players anyways) are running into even more problems against Pryce and Bail as well as fleets that can pop flotillas and corvettes from downtown to bleed activations early (specifically Vader Cymoons but to some extent Ackbar). There's also Raddus, who is happy to drop his best ship somewhere your last+first wrecking ball isn't going to be able to get it.

This is coming from someone who enjoys playing MSU and played it at Worlds. It's still a workable archetype, but you need to build it carefully and you can't rely on getting the last+first. There's a lot of big bidder fleets out there focusing on large ships nowadays.

Well, I’m looking at running a HIE Raider and ACM Kuat with Screed. I can reliably dummy 6 activations, which seems like a lot for a fully loaded Kuat. A HIE double tap from a Raider followed by a Kuat is about as effective for whaling as it gets

2 minutes ago, sweeper678 said:

Well, I’m looking at running a HIE Raider and ACM Kuat with Screed. I can reliably dummy 6 activations, which seems like a lot for a fully loaded Kuat. A HIE double tap from a Raider followed by a Kuat is about as effective for whaling as it gets

It's okay? It's relying on an enemy fleet that has a juicy target for the combo and for the combo to go off (did the Raider die? is the Kuat not at short range? did the target slip away somewhere inbetween?) and for you to have more activations (usually) and for you to be first player. So... it's fragile.

I think there's also a huge difference between "I activation padded the bejesus out of my fleet with a large ship, Strategic Adviser, 2 flotillas, and 2 light combat ships" activation heavy fleet versus a "true" MSU fleet where you get a similar number of activations but less puff. The former is usually based around delivering a super ship or some kind of combo. The latter is generally more flexible because the number of activations serves the entire fleet rather than a combo or a specific ship that can be more easily disrupted.

18 minutes ago, sweeper678 said:

Well, I’m looking at running a HIE Raider and ACM Kuat with Screed. I can reliably dummy 6 activations, which seems like a lot for a fully loaded Kuat. A HIE double tap from a Raider followed by a Kuat is about as effective for whaling as it gets

Watch those raiders closely. I've tried countless Pulse Tap fleets with similar intentions and nothing spells ruin for those fleets like a raider or two going *POP* too soon. A raider is a very risky way to issue blue crit effects.

The only advantage I'd say you have is the damage the HIEs deals doesn't get refreshed at the end of the round like defense tokens do for OverloadPulse, so it may be easier to make work.

I am pretty much in these camps for list building for the new meta this year. Either a list with 4/5 activations+Bail or 5 activations+SA. Oh, and also pretty much building for second player....

On 7/13/2018 at 11:12 AM, sweeper678 said:

Well, I’m looking at running a HIE Raider and ACM Kuat with Screed. I can reliably dummy 6 activations, which seems like a lot for a fully loaded Kuat. A HIE double tap from a Raider followed by a Kuat is about as effective for whaling as it gets

HIE is an exhaust isn't it so you can't double tap with it unless you mean two raiders

4 hours ago, chr335 said:

HIE is an exhaust isn't it so you can't double tap with it unless you mean two raiders

You last first with it to double tap. Then you last first an ACM Kuat to kill something dead

I've been doing reasonably well with a 5+S build, though I have considered dropping the S for an alternate officer, maybe DCO with how prevalent HIEs and APTs are in my meta these days...

Activation advantage is huge in my local meta. Nobody really expects MSU, and those that bring 4-5 activations are astonished when I bring six including two MC-30s and first-last them 4 times in a single game.

I think the best counter to MSU and first/lasting is a G-8 + Targeting Scrambler Interdictor and a Tractor Beam ISD II. Doubl slowing a single ship all but guarantees they can't leap behind an ISD, and their shots bounce off a Targeting Scrambler protected ISD. It's done work for me, especially with a Sloane/Avenger combo thrown into the mix for anti-whale teching.

I've been playing with only 2 ships. Rebs and Imps, Bail/Pryce makes it happen. Break all the rules.

34 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

I've been playing with only 2 ships. Rebs and Imps, Bail/Pryce makes it happen. Break all the rules.

Yeah. But you crazy. ?

Did someone say two Raiders? Love the dual Raider HIEs. But you better have a flexible heavy hitter to follow up with. I don’t like to get too fancy so Vader Cymoon works just fine. ?

1 hour ago, BrobaFett said:

I've been playing with only 2 ships. Rebs and Imps, Bail/Pryce makes it happen. Break all the rules.

Yeah, but a Vader boarding team kinda kicks those to the curb.

1 hour ago, sweeper678 said:

Yeah, but a Vader boarding team kinda kicks those to the curb.

Ummm....this is not even an argument that makes sense. If you can vader either of them before they are used your opponent has horrifically misplayed his fleet and you won anyway. Vader literally does nothing against bail/pryce because you have to activate at close range, and both of the officer effects should have resolved before you get a chance to do that.

1 hour ago, BrobaFett said:

Ummm....this is not even an argument that makes sense. If you can vader either of them before they are used your opponent has horrifically misplayed his fleet and you won anyway. Vader literally does nothing against bail/pryce because you have to activate at close range, and both of the officer effects should have resolved before you get a chance to do that.

Not necessarily. For example, a Darth Dart like CaribbeanNinja used at Worlds creates a credible threat that can be used to impact that. They are nimble, and cheap. Depending on the situation, potentially forfeiting 50 points to eliminate a Bail or Price on Turn 3 is well worth it.

36 minutes ago, sweeper678 said:

Not necessarily. For example, a Darth Dart like CaribbeanNinja used at Worlds creates a credible threat that can be used to impact that. They are nimble, and cheap. Depending on the situation, potentially forfeiting 50 points to eliminate a Bail or Price on Turn 3 is well worth it.

That’s assuming that little raider made it in past the horde of squadrons that make up the hardest hitting part of the fleet