7 hours ago, Albertese said:

"Cheese" may not be the right word. But Star Wars was always meant to be mythic and operatic. Luke for instance, who barely reacts to the death of his family but is broken up by Ben's death. Then once they arrive at Yavin the Rebels plop him into one of their fighter jets on little more than Biggs enthusiasm. Not exactly realistic.

I'm with Derrault - there's a big difference between knowing the uncle you've been at loggerheads with is probably dead and getting it confirmed after a drive of some length, and seeing the person who's been acting as a father figure and mentor get cut down in front of your eyes. As far as him flying, we don't see everything that happens between their arrival at Yavin IV and the ships taking off...but compare it even to Independence Day. "We have planes, we are definitely going to die if we don't stop the juggernaut coming for us, so anyone who assures us they can fly a plane gets one." What do they have to lose by giving him an X-Wing that no one else was using? The Death Star is blowing them up anyway. Works for me within the normal level of suspension of disbelief I have for movies.

Even if you want to think those events are not completely realistic or logical, I don't see that they compare to the completely unbelievable-from-a-human "Noooo!"

@Turan I take your point regarregarding the Rebels having nothing to lose giving Luke an X-Wing, but disagree about the other point. Ben had been his "father figure and mentor" for two hours by the time he died. When he tells Uncle Owen that he wonders if the Obi-Wan Kenobi the droid mentioned was related to Old Ben, it seems more like someone he knows mostly by reputation. When Ben scares off the Sandpeople, it's clear that he and Luke have met before, but I never saw it as if they have a prior friendship, really.

And I have a hard time saying that the original trilogy had much better dialog than the Prequels. Harrison Ford famously told George, "you can type this stuff but you can't say it." Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher made similar comments. The prequels are deeply flawed films, don't get me wrong, but I think we sometimes give them less credit than they deserve. And conversely, give the OT more credit than is fair. Nostalgia is a big factor.

Recently I listened to “From a certain point of view”, and a lot of the old gaps started to be filled in for me, storywise...

12 hours ago, Turan said:

Examples? I grant Ewoks. Aside from that, what intentional cheesiness (not humor, but cheesiness) is there in the original trilogy? Not the special editions that Lucas wrote on the same crack as the prequels, but the original trilogy.

I don’t know that “cheese” is the right word, but the OT wasn’t above poking fun at itself or its characters.

Han stunting on the radio during the Death Star infiltration. Han chasing Stormies down the hall screaming, only to derp and 180 when he runs into reinforcements. Leia calling Chewie a walking carpet. Leia riffing on Luke for being short. Most of Threepio’s dialogue. Yoda clowning on Luke when he first shows up on Dagobah. Ewoks. Luke convincing the Ewoks that Threepio is a god. Boba Fett’s death.

That’s not to say that Star Wars isn’t also serious. But it spends as much time being light hearted as it does being more “serious.”

13 minutes ago, KalEl814 said:

That’s not to say that Star Wars isn’t also serious. But it spends as much time being light hearted as it does being more “serious.”

You're not contradicting anything I said. I acknowledge and appreciate the humor in the original trilogy, but it isn't the same as what was added in the special editions and is present in the sequel movies - cheesy, childish, use whatever word feels most appropriate to you.

3 hours ago, Albertese said:

Ben had been his "father figure and mentor" for two hours by the time he died.

And in that time he gave Luke everything he'd been denied by Owen - information about his real father and past (even if couched in misdirection), encouragement to take the life path he wanted to take, and an introduction into the world of the Force he never even knew about. It's okay if that doesn't work for you, and you feel his emotional reactions to the various deaths in the original trilogy are inappropriately skewed. I'm not trying to justify anything as being perfectly written, just stating my opinion (which is a fairly common one) that there's a huge difference in quality when looking at the prequels. If you don't see it and can't understand it...that's okay for you.

Personally I think the main issue is how Leia loses her entire planet, her family, everything she knows and loves yet soldiers on while Luke pines for old Ben who he doesn’t know well. Lol.

Leia was made of sterner stuff!

1 hour ago, Sith Lord Revan said:

Personally I think the main issue is how Leia loses her entire planet, her family, everything she knows and loves yet soldiers on while Luke pines for old Ben who he doesn’t know well. Lol.

Leia was made of sterner stuff!

Well Leia withstood hours of interrogation/torture and still gave the Empire jack squat, I bet if Luke at that point was interrogated by Vader he'd squeal in five to ten minutes.

Theres a reason Leia is a leader in every starwars story shes in.

Quite frankly, Luke should be an operative not a commander. He never called any shots for the whole rebellion or even just a small squad, he obeyed them or did his own thing.

6 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Theres a reason Leia is a leader in every starwars story shes in.

Quite frankly, Luke should be an operative not a commander. He never called any shots for the whole rebellion or even just a small squad, he obeyed them or did his own thing.

As Red 5 he was a section leader, and Biggs even remarked how well Luke "Took charge and lead them" rather than just doing his own thing.

... before he exploded, of course.

2 hours ago, Turan said:

You're not contradicting anything I said. I acknowledge and appreciate the humor in the original trilogy, but it isn't the same as what was added in the special editions and is present in the sequel movies - cheesy, childish, use whatever word feels most appropriate to you.

There’s nothing in OT or the ST that’s as goofy as the Gungans or battle droids, there’s no way around that. But I’d say that the OT and the ST are equivalently “childish.” Han’s prank call isn’t more serious than Poe’s, BB8 isn’t goofier than Artoo, Porgs aren’t goofier than Ewoks, etc. Empire is easily the most “serious” of the OT and even that features Yoda putting on an act where he’s poking a droid with a stick as they fight over a lamp, along with the usual amount of Threepio hijinx. And let’s also not ignore that the OT / pre-special edition / pre-PT timeframe is where we got the Ewok movies and Christmas special. Mark Hamill showed up on the Muppets.

This tone is as much a part of Star Wars as droids and lightsabers.

52 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

Well Leia withstood hours of interrogation/torture and still gave the Empire jack squat, I bet if Luke at that point was interrogated by Vader he'd squeal in five to ten minutes.

Plus let’s not forget that Leia strangled Jabba to death . . . And led Han and Luke out of the trap they dug for themselves on the Death Star, and threatened Jabba with a detonator. Leia is easily one of the greats of Star Wars.

Luke on the other hand got strangled by some tentacle in the trash compactor, jumped at shadows under a tree, got his hand chopped off, ended up losing to the emperor etc etc. Plus he almost ended up as Ewok food unlike Leia!

34 minutes ago, KalEl814 said:

There’s nothing in OT or the ST that’s as goofy as the Gungans or battle droids, there’s no way around that. But I’d say that the OT and the ST are equivalently “childish.” Han’s prank call isn’t more serious than Poe’s, BB8 isn’t goofier than Artoo, Porgs aren’t goofier than Ewoks, etc. Empire is easily the most “serious” of the OT and even that features Yoda putting on an act where he’s poking a droid with a stick as they fight over a lamp, along with the usual amount of Threepio hijinx. And let’s also not ignore that the OT / pre-special edition / pre-PT timeframe is where we got the Ewok movies and Christmas special. Mark Hamill showed up on the Muppets.

No, Luke Skywalker AND Mark Hamill showed up on the Muppets.

45 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

As Red 5 he was a section leader, and Biggs even remarked how well Luke "Took charge and lead them" rather than just doing his own thing.

... before he exploded, of course.

Which still would fit the Operative rank better than Commander. Being a good leader at the unit level doesn't necessarily translate to being good on a tactical and strategic level.

IE: Luke is a good frontline combatant with the ability to inspire the troops to greatness. He's not necessarily good at planning out objectives and such. Heck, Han seemed better at that sort of thing while also being a charismatic front line leader.

Luke was never given the title of General IIRC, something Solo and Lando became. So technically both of them would be Luke's superiors in terms of actual authority. Though being a Jedi would always come with the role of being an advisor.

It would actually be interesting for Luke to become cheaper and an Operative while you have Lando take his place as a Commander.

Maybe make Luke 130ish points and change his command cards to be,

My ally is the Force: Luke. When Luke is assigned an order token, choose up to 2 friendly Troopers at range 1-2. Luke and the chosen trooper units each gain 1 dodge token.

Son of Skywalker: No change.

Return of the Jedi: Only change is only Luke gains an Order token.

18 hours ago, Turan said:

Examples? I grant Ewoks. Aside from that, what intentional cheesiness (not humor, but cheesiness) is there in the original trilogy? Not the special editions that Lucas wrote on the same crack as the prequels, but the original trilogy.

The Bith Shuffle ie cantina song (try listening to the entire piece not just what was included in the film, btw). Everything in the Cantina. Chewbacca. The title of the movie (Star Wars - just think about that as if you hadn’t grown up with it - it’s cheesy AF). Every interaction involving C3PO and R2D2, Mynocks, Ugnaughts, Lando Calrissian, the fact that there are princesses in space, Darth Vader (which is German for “dark father”), Yoda, the Saarlac pit, Jabba the Hutt, Gammoreans, the Mon Calamari, The asteroid monster that they land the Falcon in, Luke as a completely untrained Jedi making the shot that destroys the Death Star, the rebels letting Luke walk in off the street and fly a star fighter with no training. “Yeeeeeeehaaaaaaaw!!! Now blow this thing so we can go home!” The coronation room scene. “Boba Fett? Where?” Boba Fett’s death. Jabba’s Death. R2D2 zapping Salacious Crumb on the sail barge. The name “Salacious Crumb.” The character of Salacious Crumb” “Bantha poodo” (not invented in the trilogy). Max Reebo and the Reebo band (pre-special edition). The Emporer - dude sits in a dark robe on a space throne surrounded by red robed “guards” and of course has a wrinkly face and rotted teeth. Building a giant moon sized space base to destroy planets. Building a second giant moon sized base to destroy planets. Including a giant explosive device at the center of it hidden behind a maze.

Tell me what part of the original trilogy ISN’T cheesy? Keep in mind I love all these things. The only difference between cheese and awesome is in the eye of the beholder.

EDIT: just as an aside, I find it absolutely fascinating that so many fans are devoted to the idea that the prequels and the SE are fundamentally different than the original trilogy because Lucas became a completely different person between age 33 and 63, rather than that we, the fans, have a completely altered perspective based on what we saw at 7 compared to what we saw at 37. I’m watching the sequel trilogy with my kids who are about the age I was when I saw the original trilogy and they will tell you in a heartbeat that the new movies are better.

Well there are some fundamental differences between the Original Trilogy and the Prequels.

With the Original Trilogy, Lucas had a lot of people in control over the script and at higher rank than he was. People who were actually competent film makers who could write scripts. And that is Lucas's main weakness, he can't write a freaking script.

The Prequels on the other hand, Lucas had become famous and was in total control over those films. The main issue with the scripts was that George can't write good scripts nor is he a good director. He's maybe an Ok producer, and an amazing special effects guy. Which is where the Prequels fell apart. Lousy script and direction, which led to painful dialogue.

Literally if you just reshot the prequels in terms of dialogue and script, they would have been good movies. Hayden isn't a great actor, but that isn't as crucial as having a good director. A decent director and script writer could have gotten good performances out of him. But sadly we had Lucas's trash directing and script writing, and even an amazing actor is going to have trouble delivering lines like "I hate sand..."

4 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Which still would fit the Operative rank better than Commander. Being a good leader at the unit level doesn't necessarily translate to being good on a tactical and strategic level.

IE: Luke is a good frontline combatant with the ability to inspire the troops to greatness. He's not necessarily good at planning out objectives and such. Heck, Han seemed better at that sort of thing while also being a charismatic front line leader.

Luke was never given the title of General IIRC, something Solo and Lando became. So technically both of them would be Luke's superiors in terms of actual authority. Though being a Jedi would always come with the role of being an advisor.

It would actually be interesting for Luke to become cheaper and an Operative while you have Lando take his place as a Commander.

Maybe make Luke 130ish points and change his command cards to be,

My ally is the Force: Luke. When Luke is assigned an order token, choose up to 2 friendly Troopers at range 1-2. Luke and the chosen trooper units each gain 1 dodge token.

Son of Skywalker: No change.

Return of the Jedi: Only change is only Luke gains an Order token.

Now, I'm not sure if it was in the OT or in the EU but I do know he was called Commander Skywalker somewhere. If not, he did at least lead Rogue Squadron on film.

1 hour ago, BadMotivator said:

Well there are some fundamental differences between the Original Trilogy and the Prequels.

With the Original Trilogy, Lucas had a lot of people in control over the script and at higher rank than he was. People who were actually competent film makers who could write scripts. And that is Lucas's main weakness, he can't write a freaking script.

The Prequels on the other hand, Lucas had become famous and was in total control over those films. The main issue with the scripts was that George can't write good scripts nor is he a good director. He's maybe an Ok producer, and an amazing special effects guy. Which is where the Prequels fell apart. Lousy script and direction, which led to painful dialogue.

Literally if you just reshot the prequels in terms of dialogue and script, they would have been good movies. Hayden isn't a great actor, but that isn't as crucial as having a good director. A decent director and script writer could have gotten good performances out of him. But sadly we had Lucas's trash directing and script writing, and even an amazing actor is going to have trouble delivering lines like "I hate sand..."

Lucas is a decent director, he just is complete crap at directing people with his only real direction generally being 'faster and more intense'. He is a terrific idea guy, he just needs people to funnel those ideas to get them as best as possible. Still, what I can say for the PT is that it is a good story it just has poor execution.

21 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

Now, I'm not sure if it was in the OT or in the EU but I do know he was called Commander Skywalker somewhere. If not, he did at least lead Rogue Squadron on film.

I believe he was called Commander Skywalker on Hoth

18 hours ago, BigBadAndy said:

Lots of stuff

You and I have very different definitions of what constitutes cheesy. And I'm not sure what you mean when you say "'Bantha poodo' (not invented in the trilogy)," but that was not a part of the original films.

16 hours ago, jcmonson said:

I believe he was called Commander Skywalker on Hoth

Correct - he was identified as Commander Skywalker during the search and rescue as Rogue 2 calls for him on the comm.

22 hours ago, BigBadAndy said:

....

“Bantha poodo” (not invented in the trilogy).

....

3 hours ago, Turan said:

.... And I'm not sure what you mean when you say "'Bantha poodo' (not invented in the trilogy)," but that was not a part of the original films.

"Bantha poodoo" definitely was on the original trilogy. Jabba throws this particular description at Han in his throne room. It means "Bantha fodder" meaning that Han is only worth being fed to Banthas, yet it's use by Sebulba in Phantom Menace suggests that maybe George Lucas thinks "fodder" is feces.

It isn't.

Yet.

On 7/18/2018 at 1:01 PM, Turan said:

You and I have very different definitions of what constitutes cheesy. And I'm not sure what you mean when you say "'Bantha poodo' (not invented in the trilogy)," but that was not a part of the original films.

It sure was part of the original trilogy.

On 7/18/2018 at 4:46 PM, Albertese said:

Bantha poodoo" definitely was on the original trilogy. Jabba throws this particular description at Han in his throne room. It means "Bantha fodder" meaning that Han is only worth being fed to Banthas, yet it's use by Sebulba in Phantom Menace suggests that maybe George Lucas thinks "fodder" is feces.

I actually think we are meant to understand that “poodo” is being deliberately mistranslated and fodder is a euphemism.

1 hour ago, BigBadAndy said:

I actually think we are meant to understand that “poodo” is being deliberately mistranslated and fodder is a euphemism.

Huh. Maybe.

Back on topic, I think the main reason why I don't like Palp is that he is just too expensive, for the next commander. It would have been nice for the Imperials to get a less expensive Commander so they could take two commanders and something along with it. Palp will see the table, but I don't think one will see both Palp and Vader too often.

However I think the Rebels can mix and match their commanders.

3 hours ago, Bohemian73 said:

Back on topic, I think the main reason why I don't like Palp is that he is just too expensive, for the next commander. It would have been nice for the Imperials to get a less expensive Commander so they could take two commanders and something along with it. Palp will see the table, but I don't think one will see both Palp and Vader too often.

However I think the Rebels can mix and match their commanders.

Yeah I'm stoked for the Emperor but I'll be even more excited when the Empire gets a commander that falls between Veers and Vader in cost. Maybe the Grand Inquisitor?

On 7/21/2018 at 10:02 PM, Bohemian73 said:

Back on topic, I think the main reason why I don't like Palp is that he is just too expensive, for the next commander. It would have been nice for the Imperials to get a less expensive Commander so they could take two commanders and something along with it. Palp will see the table, but I don't think one will see both Palp and Vader too often.

I was expecting a 120 pt Thrawn or Krennic with a bit more prowess. I don't understand the movement 1 for so many of the Imperial figures. They want us to actually play the game right and use the rules they've created and changed, etc. Movement 1 makes for one faction just sitting still while the other runs around and sees if they can steal the objectives. It becomes way more dice dependent than strategy.