6 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

Firstly, the Y-Wing is not that cumbersome. You can see from the films that it's basically up there with the X-Wing and TIE Fighter in terms of speed, and it's maneuverable enough to keep with the X-Wings and A-Wings in the DSII tunnel. Indeed, the only ship we see crash in those tunnels is a TIE Fighter. The ILM production chart for how to film the different ships in RotJ shows the Y-Wing, X-Wing and TIE Fighter as all being basically equal in terms of maneuverablity and speed.

People keep bringing that chart up, as justification for making the Y-wing and X-wing fly as good as a TIE. I don't think this is conclusive to discussion, because:
- I could bring up sources that contradict this, actually way more than you can. This might have been the case at the time of shooting, but has been OBVIOUSLY retconned since. Most sources talk about how much faster imperial craft are.

The Y-wing is said to be an old BOMBER craft that was saved from the scrapyards. Outdated, scavenged, jury rigged ships that are by design not terribly great at moving. How is that equal to the maneuverability of a brand new, state of the art space superiority fighter (X-Wing), and a light interceptor (TIE)?

Yeah, you can say that there is a source that justifies this position (as if that matters in a universe that is pretty much made from contradicting source materials), but you can surely see that it doesn't make sense... right?

Also... please don't bring up the stupid plotarmor of the rebels as a legitimate argument for how good or bad the craft is... FFG is doing that job just fine.

6 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

The key thing here is gameplay. It doesn't take a genius to realise that, in almost all cases, the ships that got left behind in 1e are the ones that completely lacked any reposition action, because the ability to tweak you maneuver after gaining some or all of the board state information, as well as have the option to trigger or not, and some options about direction is huge.

FFG realised this, and they came up with what I think is a very clever means of offering some of those reposition benefits to almost all ships without making all ships the same - the red action. As I said before, the level of granularity it brings is fantastic. Y-Wings have gained the ability to tweak their firing arcs or position better around obstacles, and I think it's going to make them so much more relevant than any changes to ordnance or turrets. But that access comes with a cost that not every ship has, and it makes it a choice.

Yup. And for precisely that reason is why I think FFG made a mistake by not giving the Advanced a red boost. Gameplay.

I said it before. I don't care about the Y-Wing. It's just the same justifications don't seem to apply to imperial ships when designing them.

Vader will rarely take focus (because of the Force) and only change locks when he killed his target. The way they limited the Advanced is just unacceptable. The best pilot, in a crappy ship, once again.

Just out of curiosity... How would rebels feel if the Falcon was a worse Decimator? Higher PS, sure. Better pilot ability... It can even have +1 agi.

Because that's what we got. Again.

The Advanced in 1.0 was just a bad ship (except vader). Overpriced, weak, lacking options. I cant speak for the pricing, but the options are even more limited now, and it just got weaker.

The Y-wing in 1.0 was just a bad ship (except tlt). It got better in every way. It has more options. It can double tap ffs.

3 hours ago, chervorlovesu said:

If it's legal and too op cant they just make them 41 points? Isn't this the whole deal with 2.0?

The same reason why they didn't change Sabine or Miranda after years of negative meta influence. Because they don't want to. Because they want the rebels to dominate the game.

Palpatine was nerfed, and one can argue that he was less cancerous than Sabine. There was NOTHING preventing them from changing Sabine or Miranda. They didn't have the problem of Dengar... They could have just changed the text. There were many solutions. They CHOSE to do nothing.

And they haven't convinced me that they won't be like that.

4 hours ago, Praetorate of the Empire said:

I really hope they stay away from 0 point Upgrades. I think it just takes away from properly choosing one's Upgrades. The choice goes from "What does this add to my list" to "Meh, I don't have room for anything else, might as well bring 'Crack Shot'".

I think they should and will try to make things less auto-include throughout the design process.

They could, of course, somehow design Upgrades so that they cost less from ship to ship or give certain ships Titles that reduce the cost of Upgrades again, but that seems a little clunky for 2.0. Probably more doable with an app, though.

There's no auto-include 0 cost upgrade if there's a viable array to choose from

Since crackshot is bullseye only, it's hardly the optimal choice in every scenario. At the very least, it'd be competing with Marksmanship, Trickshot, and Ruthlessness (all of which should imo be 0)

This alleviate the burden of mid I generics (in that they often get nothing for their points, due to the all-or-noyhing nature of ps mechanics, other than an upgrade slot) and give them some flavor to boot

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

There's no auto-include 0 cost upgrade if there's a viable array to choose from

Since crackshot is bullseye only, it's hardly the optimal choice in every scenario. At the very least, it'd be competing with Marksmanship, Trickshot, and Ruthlessness (all of which should imo be 0)

This alleviate the burden of mid I generics (in that they often get nothing for their points, due to the all-or-noyhing nature of ps mechanics, other than an upgrade slot) and give them some flavor to boot

I suppose you could consider it opportunity cost...

I guess I don't mind the idea. I just don't want to see auto-include.

I could get behind Trick Shot and Ruthless being 0, but I think the payout on Marksmanship outweighs the restriction to BEA. It's a passive mod, A Black Sq. Ace swarm with Marksmanship could be rampant devastation against Medium and Large bases, especially.

This makes me wonder if threat cards were meant to interact with real 200 point lists or if they were supposed to be their own self-contained ecosystem type of thing. I wonder if threat cards will be legal in 200 point tournaments as an alternative form of list building? It makes sense if they were legal, since the whole idea is to give new players a foothold to play against established players without having to understand list building.

Reminds of me of something that happened in MTG a few years back, where they had to ban a card but only after they had put it into a prefab tournament deck for beginners, and only allowed the banned card to be used if it was in the exact same configuration as the prefabricated decklist. Could be similar here where something like 5 X-Wings is too strong for tournament play but is still allowed as long as it's still in its out-of-the-box format.

14 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

This makes me wonder if threat cards were meant to interact with real 200 point lists or if they were supposed to be their own self-contained ecosystem type of thing. I wonder if threat cards will be legal in 200 point tournaments as an alternative form of list building? It makes sense if they were legal, since the whole idea is to give new players a foothold to play against established players without having to understand list building.

Reminds of me of something that happened in MTG a few years back, where they had to ban a card but only after they had put it into a prefab tournament deck for beginners, and only allowed the banned card to be used if it was in the exact same configuration as the prefabricated decklist. Could be similar here where something like 5 X-Wings is too strong for tournament play but is still allowed as long as it's still in its out-of-the-box format.

5 Xwings is not possible with threat cards, since they are loaded with upgrades.

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

People keep bringing that chart up, as justification for making the Y-wing and X-wing fly as good as a TIE. I don't think this is conclusive to discussion, because:

"Your primary source doesn't agree with my argument, so I'm just going to completely discount it.

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

I could bring up sources that contradict this, actually way more than you can.

"I have so many sources, the best sources. People tell me all the time that my sources are the best. I have more sources than anyone here, and they're the best"

Steady on, Donald.

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

The Y-wing is said to be an old BOMBER craft that was saved from the scrapyards. Outdated, scavenged, jury rigged ships that are by design not terribly great at moving. How is that equal to the maneuverability of a brand new, state of the art space superiority fighter (X-Wing), and a light interceptor (TIE)? 

The Y-Wing is a fighter bomber, obviously. If you're attempting to imply that the Y-Wing is somehow the Lancaster to the X-Wing's Spitfire, then I think you're way off base. The Y-Wing quite apparently doesn't move like a big, weighty dedicated bomber in the movies. Not even Rogue One, which was made much later and theoretically could have taken into account all the material that came between saying it was 'slow.

The Y-Wing is more like an A-6 Intruder or F-105 to the X-Wing's F-14. The X-Wing is newer, nimbler and better in the superiority role but that's no reason to assume the Y-Wing is a slouch.

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Yeah, you can say that there is a source that justifies this position (as if that matters in a universe that is pretty much made from contradicting source materials)

So what the **** is the basis for your argument? If any source can be discounted because they all contradict, then why are the things backing up your claim that it's old and slow okay? You know that most of the material that got into technical detail on these things has been made non-canon anyway, right?

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Also... please don't bring up the stupid plotarmor of the rebels as a legitimate argument for how good or bad the craft is... FFG is doing that job just fine.

This is where I start to have real doubts about whether discussing anything with you is worth it or not.

'Stupid plot armour' for the good guys in a schlocky 70s/80s space fantasy movie inspired by Flash Gordon and made for kids. Do you ever wonder why you so heavily seem to sympathise with a faction who are almost literally Nazis in space to the point that the heroic characters surviving is 'stupid plot armour' to you? You seem to think it's unfair for the Rebels to win and the Empire to lose and I really have to question the weird victim complex that seem to come with that.

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Yup. And for precisely that reason is why I think FFG made a mistake by not giving the Advanced a red boost. Gameplay.

Which I agreed with?

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

I don't care about the Y-Wing

Evidently...

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

It's just the same justifications don't seem to apply to imperial ships when designing them.

Except for all those Imperial ships that got buffed, of course. The Bomber, the Punisher, the Defender, the Interceptor, the Lambda. Even the Gunboat got a very slight buff via the changes to its title (no more cost limitation on the cannon, for example).

The only Imperial ship that needed a buff and didn't get one (except for the improvements to its dial and the ability of its main pilot and ATC being in-built) is the TIE Advanced, and I already agreed with you that it's still lacking something when you compare it with its nearest equivalent, the X-Wing.

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Just out of curiosity... How would rebels feel if the Falcon was a worse Decimator? Higher PS, sure. Better pilot ability... It can even have +1 agi. 

Because that's what we got. Again.

Literally no idea what you're trying to say here.

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

It has more options. It can double tap ffs. 

It could in 1e, and it could do that with TLT. That still didn't make it good.

Yes, it can double tap without being limited to only firing forward in 2e, but only if you spend an action to rotate the turret forward and lose mods, or keep the turret locked forward like 1e anyway. And you can only do it ion cannon turret and dorsal turret which both, points depending of course, kinda suck. Also it will definitely be paying points for that double tap this time round. VTG is not going to be a cheap upgrade.

This is what I've been saying this whole time, why I chose it as an example. The Y-Wing will almost certainly be paying for these improvements with a points increase over 1e.

The TIE Fighter hasn't been improved (except for all those much improved pilot skills and relative high Initiative values) , but we also know it's the same cost.

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

The same reason why they didn't change Sabine or Miranda after years of negative meta influence. Because they don't want to. Because they want the rebels to dominate the game.

Palpatine was nerfed, and one can argue that he was less cancerous than Sabine. There was NOTHING preventing them from changing Sabine or Miranda. They didn't have the problem of Dengar... They could have just changed the text. There were many solutions. They CHOSE to do nothing.

And they haven't convinced me that they won't be like that.

If you don't see why the situation is different now, I can't help you.

The difference is the one thing they were never able to change before in 1e was point cost. All the convoluted errata, all the nerfing of elements of a broken build instead of the build itself were all artefacts of the limited way FFG could patch problems.

Yes, they let Miranda and Sabine go on too long in comparison with Palpatine and Jumpmasters, and I don't know why that was. But part of me wonders if they felt they went too far with Palp and the JM5k (because they clearly did) and weren't sure how to change those two cards to make them less dominant, but without wiping them from the game the way they did Palp and Dengaroo and without breaking the intent of the cards.

But they have an entirely different option, now. They don't have to change the text on problem cards, they don't have to consolidate the changes in a document, they don't have to publish that document to their site, make everyone aware and insist that everyone use the changes in a tournament. Now they change the cost, and update a database that powers an app they want everyone playing the game to be using.

I understand that skepticism requires proof to satisfy, so I know this won't change your mind yet.

But I guarantee you that balancing will be easier in 2e, and it will happen much sooner after problems are identified. Especially when the problem is not to do with wording of an upgrade or ability, but is a simple matter of how many of a ship it is balanced to fit on a table.

48 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Steady on, Donald.

1. Don't... just don't.

48 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

'Stupid plot armour' for the good guys in a schlocky 70s/80s space fantasy movie inspired by Flash Gordon and made for kids. Do you ever wonder why you so heavily seem to sympathise with a faction who are almost literally Nazis in space to the point that the heroic characters surviving is 'stupid plot armour' to you? You seem to think it's unfair for the Rebels to win and the Empire to lose and I really have to question the weird victim complex that seem to come with that.

2. Do you have to question that? If I like nazis in fiction, it means I like nazis in real life? Are you sure it has nothing to do with bad writing? I know it is like that by design, and I see it as an artistic choice. It's fine for the movies, but I don't necessarily think that all SW media has to follow that. An RPG game like that probably wouldn't be too much fun, for example, because there are few consequences.

By the way. I've beaten up several nazis, for being nazis. My act here on the forums is just that. An act. I am quite clear about that. I don't actually believe that the Empire did nothing wrong. (but it didn't).

What is bothering, is that you are not the first one who thinks I might be an actual nazi, from nothing but my opinion of a plastic spaceship game. You guys need to chill out, and take life (or at least these forums) less seriously. Not everyone you dislike is nazi. And people are definitely not nazis, just because they think a galaxy wide spanning empire shouldn't be defeated by a rag-tag group of ill equipped insurgents realistically.

48 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Except for all those Imperial ships that got buffed, of course. The Bomber, the Punisher, the Defender, the Interceptor, the Lambda. Even the Gunboat got a very slight buff via the changes to its title (no more cost limitation on the cannon, for example).

The only Imperial ship that needed a buff and didn't get one (except for the improvements to its dial and the ability of its main pilot and ATC being in-built) is the TIE Advanced, and I already agreed with you that it's still lacking something when you compare it with its nearest equivalent, the X-Wing.

Aggressor didn't get buffed (which was also seen as a ship without any remarkable features. At best it was the equivalent of the Y-wing, which got buffs, the aggressor didn't. And it lost LWF). We don't know about the Defender. If the rumors are true, and you can only fit a maximum of 2 in the list, I'd say they were nerfed. (Especially since you can bring 3 naked IG-s at IN4). They don't have a double tap anymore. Gunboats get stressed after slamming and can only reload 1 ordnance per round, and they lost a lot of the cannons. But Ions are nice.
I'd argue that the TIE needed a buff in late 1.0, with 5 X-wings being a thing, and at least some evidence shows that being the case in 2.0, I'd say that situation could be present in 2.0 as well... And they didn't get a buff either. The Reaper got nerfed, Jamming is useless (it didn't even keep the in arc range 2, which is very fair)

But yeah, the rest is awesome, and I made posts about some of those as well.

48 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

But I guarantee you that balancing will be easier in 2e, and it will happen much sooner after problems are identified. Especially when the problem is not to do with wording of an upgrade or ability, but is a simple matter of how many of a ship it is balanced to fit on a table.

Don't, because you can't. You HOPE that it will be that way.

48 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Yes, they let Miranda and Sabine go on too long in comparison with Palpatine and Jumpmasters, and I don't know why that was. But part of me wonders if they felt they went too far with Palp and the JM5k (because they clearly did) and weren't sure how to change those two cards to make them less dominant, but without wiping them from the game the way they did Palp and Dengaroo and without breaking the intent of the cards.

A 2.0-like Miranda could have been implemented, limiting the regen and bonus dice to primary only, with 1 word, and no significant loss of identity. It is easy to do, works great, and was suggested on the forums like a billion times. They could have done it, if they only chose to do so. There was no reason not to do it, aside from not wanting it to happen. I'd say they are bad designers, but clearly not, since this issue was solved elegantly in 2.0, so clearly they COULD do it. They just didn't.

Whoa hold on a second. The Empire aren’t space nazis, the First Order are space nazis. The Empire are space brits.

7 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Whoa hold on a second. The Empire aren’t space nazis, the First Order are space nazis. The Empire are space brits.

Eh... they're both pretty fashy.

8 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Whoa hold on a second. The Empire aren’t space nazis, the First Order are space nazis. The Empire are space brits.

No British person would ever say something like this.

6 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

The Y-Wing is a fighter bomber, obviously. If you're attempting to imply that the Y-Wing is somehow the Lancaster to the X-Wing's Spitfire, then I think you're way off base. The Y-Wing quite apparently doesn't move like a big, weighty dedicated bomber in the movies. Not even Rogue One, which was made much later and theoretically could have taken into account all the material that came between saying it was 'slow.

The Y-Wing is more like an A-6 Intruder or F-105 to the X-Wing's F-14. The X-Wing is newer, nimbler and better in the superiority role but that's no reason to assume the Y-Wing is a slouch.

So what the **** is the basis for your argument? If any source can be discounted because they all contradict, then why are the things backing up your claim that it's old and slow okay? You know that most of the material that got into technical detail on these things has been made non-canon anyway, right?

A lot of the technical specifications for the Y-Wing actually come from Clone Wars era sources (mainly due to the TV series and its accompanying guide books). That iteration of the Y-Wing was, with the exception of highly modified ant expensive ace craft, incredibly, outrageously slow. Rebels essentially stripped ALL the armur off of them, among other things, to make them more agile in a dogfight. Of course, even highly modified Y-wings were shot down by a couple of TIE fighters (and an Advanced) that managed to catch up to them extremely easy in ANH. It's really, really obvious that Y-wings are a lot slower than TIEs - they really should have a lambda-esque dial in comparison, but only didn't for game mechanics reasons.

Of course, @Commander Kaine has already won the argument, because he hasn't resorted to outlandish insults and strawmen arguments.

6 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

'Stupid plot armour' for the good guys in a schlocky 70s/80s space fantasy movie inspired by Flash Gordon and made for kids. Do you ever wonder why you so heavily seem to sympathise with a faction who are almost literally Nazis in space to the point that the heroic characters surviving is 'stupid plot armour' to you? You seem to think it's unfair for the Rebels to win and the Empire to lose and I really have to question the weird victim complex that seem to come with that.

A New Hope really wasn't a kids movie. In a modern context, it's easily a teen/adoult movie. Sure, kids can enjoy it too, because that's how awesome it is, but the whole thing is aimed at a much more mature audience than those who enjoy SW Rebels.

As for the rebels winning, it's really no contest. Imagine the entire world's military against the security force of a small strip mall. Then, the strip mall guards win. That's about the scale of hopelessness the rebels were facing. All they had was a magical space wizard with undeniable plot armour. That's why they won.

5 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

No British person would ever say something like this.

Vader is clearly American, which is why he is always so irritated with the stuffy, formal officers. He only cares about results, not ceremony.

The Empire very much resembles the old British empire at the height of colonialism.

33 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Vader is clearly American, which is why he is always so irritated with the stuffy, formal officers. He only cares about results, not ceremony.

The Empire very much resembles the old British empire at the height of colonialism.

They seek him here,

They seek him there.

Those rebels seek him everywhere.

Is he on Coruscant, or he is he on the forest moon of Endor?

That damned elusive Emperor.

3 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Vader is clearly American, which is why he is always so irritated with the stuffy, formal officers. He only cares about results, not ceremony.

The Empire very much resembles the old British empire at the height of colonialism.

To be fair, watch any clone wars episode with both Anakin and Yularen on screen together and you can pretty much hear the Admiral counting to ten under his breath every other scene.

14 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

My act here on the forums is just that. An act

Why though?

15 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

This is where I start to have real doubts about whether discussing anything with you is worth it or not.

Narrator: It isn‘t.

8 hours ago, Astech said:

Of course, @Commander Kaine has already won the argument, because he hasn't resorted to outlandish insults and strawmen arguments.

This is, funnily enough, the fallacy fallacy. You can‘t dismiss everything because of a (presumed) fallacy.

10 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

They seek him here,

They seek him there.

Those rebels seek him everywhere.

Is he on Coruscant, or he is he on the forest moon of Endor?

That damned elusive Emperor.

I can’t tell you how happy I am to see someone who appreciates this movie.

20 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I can’t tell you how happy I am to see someone who appreciates this movie.

It is a treasure.

8 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

To be fair, watch any clone wars episode ...

No

I think the only thing I'm really holding my breath for is a Talent slot on nightbeast

Easy access to focus + evade + juke? Might actually fly that bugger

10 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

This is, funnily enough, the fallacy fallacy. You can‘t dismiss everything because of a (presumed) fallacy.

Any insult in any kind of discussion is, by definition, a straw man argument. You're trying to develop a separate argument from the established topic to distract someone from their own arguments. Falsely claiming a fallacy is also a straw man argument, among other things.

5 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

I think the only thing I'm really holding my breath for is a Talent slot on nightbeast

Easy access to focus + evade + juke? Might actually fly that bugger

I'm anticipating Juke being the EPT of choice for early Defender builds, but it Night Beast can deliver at an affordable price, that's going to be seriously nice filler.

6 hours ago, Astech said:

Any insult in any kind of discussion is, by definition, a straw man argument. You're trying to develop a separate argument from the established topic to distract someone from their own arguments. Falsely claiming a fallacy is also a straw man argument, among other things.

You might want to look up what straw man means. Insults have nothing to do with misrepresenting an argument. Maybe you are thinking about ad hominem, which is not the same as insulting. (Note that I am now asking for clarification - that’s also different from a straw man).

Distraction is also not the same as a straw man argument, even if it were distraction. But the sequence was: 1. Guac made some good points. 2. You chimed in declaring Kaine the winner because of a presumed straw man. 3. I chimed in calling that false as calling a fallacy does not refute the whole argument, plus you‘d have to demonstrate the fallacy. If anything this would reemphasize the points Guac made as they should not be dismissed as flippantly as you tried.

11 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

I think the only thing I'm really holding my breath for is a Talent slot on nightbeast

Easy access to focus + evade + juke? Might actually fly that bugger

The guy who's not in there anymore?

But Valen Rudor essentially has the same ability, to be fair; if he or his mate is shot at, you can evade as well as your normal focus action, turning him into a reasonably effective jukebox.

10 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

The guy who's not in there anymore?

But Valen Rudor essentially has the same ability, to be fair; if he or his mate is shot at, you can evade as well as your normal focus action, turning him into a reasonably effective jukebox.

Night Beast is in the core set. It’s Backstabber, Dark Curse, Chaser, Gundark, and Youngster that were dropped I believe

The 5 X-Wings with 6 hits versus 8 Ties with 3 hits, worries me as well. If Ties are THAT bad, then we’re going to need a lot more of them. But then there is a thought... What if the most basic PS 1 Tie-Fighter ends up at 20pts?

29 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

The 5 X-Wings with 6 hits versus 8 Ties with 3 hits, worries me as well. If Ties are THAT bad, then we’re going to need a lot more of them. But then there is a thought... What if the most basic PS 1 Tie-Fighter ends up at 20pts?

Maybe in the future, but right now the AP is 24 points.