On 7/13/2018 at 2:41 AM, Magnus Grendel said:

The Lightweight Frame thing is a wash - it's nice now in 1.0, because 3 green dice and 6 hit points is a bugger to kill when you're only getting 20 points for achieving it. --- If anyone remembers when bombers first came out, they were surprisingly effective just with their primary weapons as a mob of 6 because they took so much bloody killing (in fact they require more damage cards than there are in a standard damage deck....)

They have one key problem - they still need to acquire target locks for most ordnance, which is and always has been hard if your target is higher Pilot Skill Initiative than you are; you move, target is not within range 3, you cannot lock them, they move into range 3 and lock you, then next turn they are into range 1 and under your minimum range.

---

There are four options I've seen to deal with this:

• Higher Initiative pilots. Fortunately, we've kept all four TIE bomber unique pilots and they are all really, really good, and hopefully we don't have to pay an inexplicably massive surcharge for Major Rhymer anymore.
• Grand Moff Tarkin. He needs a bit of infrastructure to support him because few Imperial crew-carrying ships can target lock, meaning either a Decimator (expensive) or the Tarkin/Krennic road-trip buddy comedy, but the ability to mass-lock on one target before you move allows you to Koiogran turn behind people and shove missiles where the sun doth not shine.
• Range 1 or Range 1-2 missiles. Advanced Proton Torpedos and Cluster Missiles let you move into range to acquire a target lock, and then your opponent's move will (hopefully) carry them into closer range where you can shoot.
  • Cluster Missiles aren't amazing, but they're still a 3-dice attack which a TIE bomber doesn't normally get. Nothing forces you to use the 'scatter-fire' option, and if you don't, you've got 4 turns of X-wing level firepower at range 2 without needing a reload action. Captain Jonus, particularly, will be brutal with these things against close-packed enemies.
  • Advanced Proton Torpedoes remain range 1 but are 'whole arc' unlike heavy laser cannons and proton rockets, and still have proton torpedoes automatic hit-to-crit modification. The fact that you don't need target lock and focus to make them effective anymore makes them a scary option for a large group of bombers because it only takes one of them to get a shot off to really, really inconvenience even an intact fighter. Yes, you only get one shot but that means they shouldn't be extortionately expensive and you can always reload.
• Focus-triggered missiles. Proton Rockets and Barrage Rockets both don't actually need a lock to be effective.
  • Proton Rockets are going to be best with...something. Range 1-2 bull's-eye isn't bad, but either you need them en masse (to create a 'crossfire' of lethal bull's-eye arcs, or you need ion pulse missiles or similar tools to restrict your opponent's movement options, or you need to be hunting easier-to-hit large base ships. Lining up the shot (and still having a focus to fire the things) isn't easy - TIE advanced (with barrel roll/link/focus) might have an easier time, but even then, it's far from guaranteed because a barrel roll can easily carry your bull's-eye clean across a small base and off the other side.
  • Barrage Rockets are probably the best 'basic' armament for the TIE bomber if you're trying to turn it into a heavy swarm combatant. They give you 3 dice at range 2-3, matching rebel letter-wings and scum scrabble-tray-fighter, at range 1 you get 3 dice naturally with your primary weapons, focus is a nice, flexible action, they still benefit from Jonus' ability (unlike contemporary unguided rockets), and 5 shots (the most of any ordnance) should last you most of the game unless you're burning them on the bull's-eye ability and netting focus/reroll/no range defence bonus attacks, which is pretty darn skippy on a cheap generic in and of itself. Or - for elites - Saturation Salvo. Unloading a TIE bomber's entire rocket load in one attack is feasible, but that is a three dice attack with focus, and four dice - either red or green rerolled as the Imperial player sees fit, which is a painful concept to be on the receiving end of....

I hadn't heard that, and don't see why they should be (what prompted that comment?). Given that conversion sets are being released at the same time as the core set, why shouldn't they be legal? The Gencon event is wave 1 only, but that's fair enough as it's a pre-release event played with the stuff in the box.

True. But it's not unreasonable to assume they've done their best to 'spend up' to that limit - the pre-built Black Squadron Ace is a good example - coming with stuff strapped to him you would never (in 1.0, admittedly) bother paying for as gear for a lowly TIE fighter generic.

I've been hearing on the Mynock Squadron Podcast that it could be Wave I only for some OP. They, of course, could be referring to GenCon, since I think at least one of the casters is going. I could very well [happily] be wrong, that's just something I've heard out there.

I am psyched to try out the assortment of new Imperial officers in support ships. I'm feeling more and more inspired to get the Reaper now that its becoming more clear that at least some of the Imperial crew could be doing some cool stuff.

Barrage Rockets should be great for low-PS Bombers, like you said. A well-modified attack should be doable with Jonus, I agree I think I'll reserve some of the fancier missiles for my Ace-y ordinance carriers.

I think I'm going to end up trying Prockets on the Punisher at least once. I think Deathrain will have an easier time at getting things done with her bonus action after dropping/launching a device. I think Focus during the System phase, then Boost for a shot. Finish dropping bombs, get out, reload, get back in. Maybe even put a few different kinds of ordinance on her to see what she can really do.

Welp. It is now confirmed to be 8 TIEs at most, and no special abilities for them in any way shape or form. They don't even have TIE only upgrades.

I was really hoping they would throw us a bone. I should have listened to my commissar:

Hope is the first step on a road towards disappointment.

7 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Welp. It is now confirmed to be 8 TIEs at most, and no special abilities for them in any way shape or form. They don't even have TIE only upgrades.

I was really hoping they would throw us a bone. I should have listened to my commissar:

Hope is the first step on a road towards disappointment.

Don’t worry, everything else has become more maneuverable vs the TIEs.

43 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Welp. It is now confirmed to be 8 TIEs at most, and no special abilities for them in any way shape or form. They don't even have TIE only upgrades.

I was really hoping they would throw us a bone. I should have listened to my commissar:

Hope is the first step on a road towards disappointment.

Leave Hope to the pathetic Rebels!

36 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Don’t worry, everything else has become less maneuverable vs the TIEs.

Is that what you meant?

13 minutes ago, Sir Orrin said:

Is that what you meant?

Nope. Most every other ship in the game got an improved dial and/or more repositioning actions. The TIE/ln got nothing. It is less maneuverable in comparison.

3 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Nope. Most every other ship in the game got an improved dial and/or more repositioning actions. The TIE/ln got nothing. It is less maneuverable in comparison.

Sure, a lot of other star-fighters got better dials, but large base ships are getting significantly more balanced dials. As a long time TIE swarm player I am confidant in saying that Large Base ships were always more threatening to me.

Guys there’s literally no way on earth they’ll let 5 X-wings in a list. XXXXX is currently running up against the most broken things in 1.0 and coming out on top. This represents the peak of the insane power creep of first edition. They’re only letting us fly 5 so we can get used to the handling of single-arced ships in preparation for 2e, and to make X-wing more enticing in The meantime for people who like X-wings.

Calling it now: cheapest generic T-65 is 43 points. Enough to buff a little, but you’ll be facing down two academy pilots EACH, with 8 points of upgrades between them

45 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Guys there’s literally no way on earth they’ll let 5 X-wings in a list. XXXXX is currently running up against the most broken things in 1.0 and coming out on top. This represents the peak of the insane power creep of first edition. They’re only letting us fly 5 so we can get used to the handling of single-arced ships in preparation for 2e, and to make X-wing more enticing in The meantime for people who like X-wings.

Calling it now: cheapest generic T-65 is 43 points. Enough to buff a little, but you’ll be facing down two academy pilots EACH, with 8 points of upgrades between them

Wanna bet?

9 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Wanna bet?

Remember that it won't matter for long? If 5 X-Wings are the new OP hotness, they can just tweak point costs on ANYTHING. Calling points now is kinda silly because they can - and likely will - be changed.

To be completely honest, though, I have faith that whatever ends up happening, things'll get figured out and the game will maintain some semblance of balance.

35 minutes ago, Praetorate of the Empire said:

Remember that it won't matter for long? If 5 X-Wings are the new OP hotness, they can just tweak point costs on ANYTHING. Calling points now is kinda silly because they can - and likely will - be changed.

To be completely honest, though, I have faith that whatever ends up happening, things'll get figured out and the game will maintain some semblance of balance.

Historically speaking FFG isn't great at nerfing rebels, even if they have tools available. They could have fixed Miranda or Sabine any time. They chose not to.

I'm not convinced that changed. I guess we will see.

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

Wanna bet?

I don’t bet money on principle. But bragging rights? I’ll give you 2:1

3 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Guys there’s literally no way on earth they’ll let 5 X-wings in a list. XXXXX is currently running up against the most broken things in 1.0 and coming out on top. This represents the peak of the insane power creep of first edition. They’re only letting us fly 5 so we can get used to the handling of single-arced ships in preparation for 2e, and to make X-wing more enticing in The meantime for people who like X-wings.

Calling it now: cheapest generic T-65 is 43 points. Enough to buff a little, but you’ll be facing down two academy pilots EACH, with 8 points of upgrades between them

You can field four of them with torps and R3 using the threat system. The question is do you think that a blue squad escort costs more or less than four proton torps + four R3 astromechs?

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I don’t bet money on principle. But bragging rights? I’ll give you 2:1

Good enough for me.

You're gonna be so out of bragging rights, that even your grandchildren can't brag about anything!

1 hour ago, HolySorcerer said:

You can field four of them with torps and R3 using the threat system. The question is do you think that a blue squad escort costs more or less than four proton torps + four R3 astromechs?

1. I'd like to say more. R3 should be fairly cheap (though torps are admittedly quite good). But My hopes aren't that high...

2. The threat system isn't that precise. For the same threat cost you could get a Black Squadron Ace with Outmaneuver and Shield Upgrade. Please tell me that's not 50 points. I'm sure it won't be after the first revision or two.

Edit: Not that it doesn't make sense that they did that. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be right to let you fly 8 Black Squadron Aces, and they probably couldn't put much more on them with their slots (though Juke would have been nicer I guess). They just don't fit into the threat system nicely. It's already generous of them to let us fly 8 obsidians (though I prefer Academies anyway).

10 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

1. I'd like to say more. R3 should be fairly cheap (though torps are admittedly quite good). But My hopes aren't that high...

2. The threat system isn't that precise. For the same threat cost you could get a Black Squadron Ace with Outmaneuver and Shield Upgrade. Please tell me that's not 50 points. I'm sure it won't be after the first revision or two.

Except it is actual a Black Squadron Ace, with Outmaneuver, Shield upgrade AND Afterburners.

Which, if we assume that Afterburners has equivalent cost to EU, in 1.0 costs it is:

14+4+4+3, which is 25. Exactly 50 in 2.0 costs.

Just now, Commander Kaine said:

Except it is actual a Black Squadron Ace, with Outmaneuver, Shield upgrade AND Afterburners.

Ah, I forgot about Afterburners. Sort of like a toothless TIE Interceptor Ace with a shield then? Not too bad. Honestly 4 of those might might stand up to 4 generic X-Wings.

But why if you can take all four Infernos ?

Just now, ClassicalMoser said:

Ah, I forgot about Afterburners. Sort of like a toothless TIE Interceptor Ace with a shield then? Not too bad. Honestly 4 of those might might stand up to 4 generic X-Wings.

But why if you can take all four Infernos ?

4 X-wings yes. Not 5. Which seems like a possibility.

15 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

4 X-wings yes. Not 5. Which seems like a possibility.

1. Not with threat builds

2. If you're not using threat, you can do a lot more interesting things with your swarm, and/or use Sloane. IDK

3. Points are still conjecture. Here's hoping we get something at GenCon!

4 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

1. Not with threat builds

2. If you're not using threat, you can do a lot more interesting things with your swarm, and/or use Sloane. IDK

3. Points are still conjecture. Here's hoping we get something at GenCon!

Your bragging rights shall be mine!!!

10 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

You can field four of them with torps and R3 using the threat system. The question is do you think that a blue squad escort costs more or less than four proton torps + four R3 astromechs?

There is absolutely no reason for threat cards to be balanced around the same metric as competitive points. They are meant for entirely different purposes.

Points will be used for competitive games like store tournaments and the big events. Threat cards are supposed to be quick build options for casual play so that people can use lists immediately out of the expansion packs without having to worry about intricate list building.

Threat cards are going to be balanced around what's fun, not on the knife edge of competition.

I think it's extremely telling that there is no threat card build that lets you take 5 X-Wings. Yes, you can take four with some upgrades but that's because more upgrades are fun. The X-Wing expansion comes with proton torpedoes and astros, so their quick build cards feature torps and astros. It's so that you get to use more things out of the box.

FFG evidently felt that four naked Blues wasn't fun enough, and three upgraded Blues wasn't quite balanced right, so they built the threat card around taking four Blues with some fun upgrades.

15 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Nope. Most every other ship in the game got an improved dial and/or more repositioning actions.

That's a rather incomplete way of looking at it, IMO.

The X-Wing got a buff to its dial and both repositioning options via s-foils. That's huge relative to the TIE Fighter, no question. But the X-Wing needed it. Nothing else has been changed to quite that extent. The Y-Wing gets blue banks and a barrel roll, but again it's dial was a product of conservative early 1e design and needed a rethink. The barrel roll is red and I think that's a huge distinction. Yes it's 'more repositioning actions', but it's not really all that different from giving it 1e Expert Handling and on EPT Y-Wings like Kavil, I don't think it was ever considered worth it. Did you complain that the TIE Fighter got less maneuverable in relative terms when Vectored Thrusters was released as an upgrade? Presumably not, because that had a points cost associated with it. Are you assuming the Y-Wing has not received a small uptick in cost?

Beyond that, most of the ships that have received changes are ships that either needed a buff, or ships that have been refocused into a more specific niche.

The E-Wing has got a better dial and gained boost, but that's because the 1e E-Wing was a mess that only saw play because of one particularly broken combo. The E-Wing has been retailored to be a Rebel TIE Defender with more focus on range, and you can bet it's going to be costed appropriately. The TIE Defender's own buffs (lest we make the mistake of thinking only Rebels have benefited from these changes) are a similar attempt to make the chassis even better, but restrict it to a more expensive ship.

Almost all of the changes are a response to particular 1e builds and why they were popular. It's an attempt to make more variety possible by making the optimisations of certain builds available to more pilot abilities and initiatives. The A-Wing gets barrel roll because VI Jake was easily the best A-Wing. The E-Wing gets boost because it was practically mandatory to give Corran Engine Upgrade anyway.

I assume you're not unhappy with other ships getting access to workable dials and repositioning, just that the TIE Fighter didn't get similar changes, right? If so, what would you have given the TIE Fighter that keeps it at the same relative manoeuvrability without significantly changing it's role? Giving it boost seems too much, it already has access to most maneuvers, giving it the 4 straight green starts to move it into Interceptor territory and I think giving it more 1 speed maneuevers would make it far too good as a cheap blocker.

Would you have been happy with 3 speed red s-loops? Because thinking about it, it does seem a little unfair that the X-Wing and TIE Advanced get new turnaround maneuvers and the old reliable TIE doesn't.

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

There is absolutely no reason for threat cards to be balanced around the same metric as competitive points. They are meant for entirely different purposes.

Points will be used for competitive games like store tournaments and the big events. Threat cards are supposed to be quick build options for casual play so that people can use lists immediately out of the expansion packs without having to worry about intricate list building.

Threat cards are going to be balanced around what's fun, not on the knife edge of competition.

I think it's extremely telling that there is no threat card build that lets you take 5 X-Wings. Yes, you can take four with some upgrades but that's because more upgrades are fun. The X-Wing expansion comes with proton torpedoes and astros, so their quick build cards feature torps and astros. It's so that you get to use more things out of the box.

FFG evidently felt that four naked Blues wasn't fun enough, and three upgraded Blues wasn't quite balanced right, so they built the threat card around taking four Blues with some fun upgrades.

That's a rather incomplete way of looking at it, IMO.

The X-Wing got a buff to its dial and both repositioning options via s-foils. That's huge relative to the TIE Fighter, no question. But the X-Wing needed it. Nothing else has been changed to quite that extent. The Y-Wing gets blue banks and a barrel roll, but again it's dial was a product of conservative early 1e design and needed a rethink. The barrel roll is red and I think that's a huge distinction. Yes it's 'more repositioning actions', but it's not really all that different from giving it 1e Expert Handling and on EPT Y-Wings like Kavil, I don't think it was ever considered worth it. Did you complain that the TIE Fighter got less maneuverable in relative terms when Vectored Thrusters was released as an upgrade? Presumably not, because that had a points cost associated with it. Are you assuming the Y-Wing has not received a small uptick in cost?

Beyond that, most of the ships that have received changes are ships that either needed a buff, or ships that have been refocused into a more specific niche.

The E-Wing has got a better dial and gained boost, but that's because the 1e E-Wing was a mess that only saw play because of one particularly broken combo. The E-Wing has been retailored to be a Rebel TIE Defender with more focus on range, and you can bet it's going to be costed appropriately. The TIE Defender's own buffs (lest we make the mistake of thinking only Rebels have benefited from these changes) are a similar attempt to make the chassis even better, but restrict it to a more expensive ship.

Almost all of the changes are a response to particular 1e builds and why they were popular. It's an attempt to make more variety possible by making the optimisations of certain builds available to more pilot abilities and initiatives. The A-Wing gets barrel roll because VI Jake was easily the best A-Wing. The E-Wing gets boost because it was practically mandatory to give Corran Engine Upgrade anyway.

I assume you're not unhappy with other ships getting access to workable dials and repositioning, just that the TIE Fighter didn't get similar changes, right? If so, what would you have given the TIE Fighter that keeps it at the same relative manoeuvrability without significantly changing it's role? Giving it boost seems too much, it already has access to most maneuvers, giving it the 4 straight green starts to move it into Interceptor territory and I think giving it more 1 speed maneuevers would make it far too good as a cheap blocker.

Would you have been happy with 3 speed red s-loops? Because thinking about it, it does seem a little unfair that the X-Wing and TIE Advanced get new turnaround maneuvers and the old reliable TIE doesn't.

I didn't have time to type all this thanks.

2 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

Would you have been happy with 3 speed red s-loops? Because thinking about it, it does seem a little unfair that the X-Wing and TIE Advanced get new turnaround maneuvers and the old reliable TIE doesn't.

The TIE fighter has always had multiple speed K-turns, but yes, a choice of off-axis turnabout moves would have been nice.

4 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

There is absolutely no reason for threat cards to be balanced around the same metric as competitive points. They are meant for entirely different purposes.

Points will be used for competitive games like store tournaments and the big events. Threat cards are supposed to be quick build options for casual play so that people can use lists immediately out of the expansion packs without having to worry about intricate list building.

Threat cards are going to be balanced around what's fun, not on the knife edge of competition.

I think it's extremely telling that there is no threat card build that lets you take 5 X-Wings. Yes, you can take four with some upgrades but that's because more upgrades are fun. The X-Wing expansion comes with proton torpedoes and astros, so their quick build cards feature torps and astros. It's so that you get to use more things out of the box.

FFG evidently felt that four naked Blues wasn't fun enough, and three upgraded Blues wasn't quite balanced right, so they built the threat card around taking four Blues with some fun upgrades.

That's a rather incomplete way of looking at it, IMO.

The X-Wing got a buff to its dial and both repositioning options via s-foils. That's huge relative to the TIE Fighter, no question. But the X-Wing needed it. Nothing else has been changed to quite that extent. The Y-Wing gets blue banks and a barrel roll, but again it's dial was a product of conservative early 1e design and needed a rethink. The barrel roll is red and I think that's a huge distinction. Yes it's 'more repositioning actions', but it's not really all that different from giving it 1e Expert Handling and on EPT Y-Wings like Kavil, I don't think it was ever considered worth it. Did you complain that the TIE Fighter got less maneuverable in relative terms when Vectored Thrusters was released as an upgrade? Presumably not, because that had a points cost associated with it. Are you assuming the Y-Wing has not received a small uptick in cost?

Beyond that, most of the ships that have received changes are ships that either needed a buff, or ships that have been refocused into a more specific niche.

The E-Wing has got a better dial and gained boost, but that's because the 1e E-Wing was a mess that only saw play because of one particularly broken combo. The E-Wing has been retailored to be a Rebel TIE Defender with more focus on range, and you can bet it's going to be costed appropriately. The TIE Defender's own buffs (lest we make the mistake of thinking only Rebels have benefited from these changes) are a similar attempt to make the chassis even better, but restrict it to a more expensive ship.

Almost all of the changes are a response to particular 1e builds and why they were popular. It's an attempt to make more variety possible by making the optimisations of certain builds available to more pilot abilities and initiatives. The A-Wing gets barrel roll because VI Jake was easily the best A-Wing. The E-Wing gets boost because it was practically mandatory to give Corran Engine Upgrade anyway.

I assume you're not unhappy with other ships getting access to workable dials and repositioning, just that the TIE Fighter didn't get similar changes, right? If so, what would you have given the TIE Fighter that keeps it at the same relative manoeuvrability without significantly changing it's role? Giving it boost seems too much, it already has access to most maneuvers, giving it the 4 straight green starts to move it into Interceptor territory and I think giving it more 1 speed maneuevers would make it far too good as a cheap blocker.

Would you have been happy with 3 speed red s-loops? Because thinking about it, it does seem a little unfair that the X-Wing and TIE Advanced get new turnaround maneuvers and the old reliable TIE doesn't.

Literally anything?

Linked focus barrel roll

Or linked barrel roll evade

Or sloops

Or a ship ability

Or better blues

I'm not saying it should be the the new jumpmaster, but if there are buffs across the board, they should be included as well.

Oh btw. Your point about the y wing is extremely disingenuous. It should not have gotten any rolls... if vader didn't get a red boost, they should not get a red roll. It makes no sense (unlike a boost.for the advanced) and a free expert handling is still great, however you wanna put it.

5 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

There is absolutely no reason for threat cards to be balanced around the same metric as competitive points. They are meant for entirely different purposes. 

That‘s a really important point

22 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Nope. Most every other ship in the game got an improved dial and/or more repositioning actions. The TIE/ln got nothing. It is less maneuverable in comparison.

???

Did you not see this incredible pilot abilities ?

Guess they didn't get more maneuverable, but their named pilot selection just got a massive buff while keeping the incredible (even more so with 2.0's lessening of mods) Howlrunner. Not only do pilots like Iden buff TIE Swarms, but pilots like Wampa (and new Wampa with marksmanship) make the humble TIE a far better cheap-flanker than it was in 1.0.

plus reinforce and evade hard nerfs, no more autothrusters to invalidate your range 3 attacks etc.

20 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Guys there’s literally no way on earth they’ll let 5 X-wings in a list. XXXXX is currently running up against the most broken things in 1.0 and coming out on top. This represents the peak of the insane power creep of first edition. They’re only letting us fly 5 so we can get used to the handling of single-arced ships in preparation for 2e, and to make X-wing more enticing in The meantime for people who like X-wings.

Calling it now: cheapest generic T-65 is 43 points. Enough to buff a little, but you’ll be facing down two academy pilots EACH, with 8 points of upgrades between them

also this, though I believe the cheapest T-65 would be 41 to be just under 5 in a list