I don't own Imperials, but I genuinely hope the app and game design will allow for reduced point costs by ships and faction in multiples in ways that benefit their swarms. For example, the Academy pilot TIE might start at 24 cost, but for each of them you add you can reduce squad cost by up to 4 total. Then you get 10!

Most likely, what we might see though is some sort of start in reserve condition for them. "Once your first two non-unique ships have been destroyed, instead place them in reserve and return all damage cards to the damage deck. You may place them together within range 1 of the board edge and beyond range 3 of any enemy ship next turn. These ships only count as having been destroyed once if they are destroyed again. "

Clumsy wording I know, but you get the point.

13 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Look. Having no definite proof of these things doesn't mean we should shut down all discussions. I acknowledge that the information could change, or it is inaccurate. But the whole premise of the post, is to assert that it is indeed likely that this will happen, and to talk about it, just in case.

The problem is someone reading your post will ignore the disclaimer, focus on the points spread you used and go on a rant about Rebel Favoritism, 2e needs a faq before it's released, it'll be DOA upon release, ad nauseam.

We don't know the rules, points and a lot of other info that may be pertinent to the argument. Doing What ifs like this leads to a lot of potential arguments.

I agree there should be some discussion on the topic but out of necessity it has to be kept really generic due to our ignorance of so much information.

You Crack Shot PS kill two on the initial joust. After that it should be fairly easy to mop up those terrorist rebel scum.

I'm a long-time TIE swarm player. Now that crackshot is bulls eye arc only, I'm probably gonna fly the TIEs in pairs or trios now to be more accurate than a giant block. Only hitch is keeping howlrunner's ability working.

3 minutes ago, Sir Orrin said:

I'm a long-time TIE swarm player. Now that crackshot is bulls eye arc only, I'm probably gonna fly the TIEs in pairs or trios now to be more accurate than a giant block. Only hitch is keeping howlrunner's ability working.

This is good thinking, IMO. Just need to think up some fancy formations and figure out which pilots pair well together.

I can't wait to fly Inferno squad! If I can fit all four of them with Howlrunner and maybe an extra academy i'll be the happiest Xwing player alive!

Another aspect of this debate is the fact that 5 x-wings are possible (by intention) in 1.0. I think the devs are probably letting 5 X loose in the 1.0 just to see how well they do. When 2.0 comes out they can (at any time) raise the point cost of the cheapest x-wing to preclude the possibility of running 5 of them.

However, I'll admit that a standard TIE swarm probably wants 2:1 numbers on a squad of X-wings. The core set ship contents sort of speaks to that point...

On 7/10/2018 at 10:39 AM, Praetorate of the Empire said:

Another aspect of this debate is the fact that 5 x-wings are possible (by intention) in 1.0. I think the devs are probably letting 5 X loose in the 1.0 just to see how well they do. When 2.0 comes out they can (at any time) raise the point cost of the cheapest x-wing to preclude the possibility of running 5 of them.

However, I'll admit that a standard TIE swarm probably wants 2:1 numbers on a squad of X-wings. The core set ship contents sort of speaks to that point..

So what you're saying is if 5 Xwings is possible we should get 10 TIE fighters?

Seems overpowered but it works for me!

I've been flying a six TIE crack swarm list a lot over the past two years. Aside from heavy harpoon lists, I haven't found another 5+ ship list of *anything* that I wouldn't feel I had a good chance of beating. I don't use Academy TIEs, though, so that might make a difference. So my thought is that I'm going to wait until the core and Imperial conversion sets are released to see what combinations are available, before I start yelling that the sky is falling.

4 minutes ago, Sir Orrin said:

So what you're saying is if 5 Xwings is possible we should get 10 TIE fighters?

Seems overpowered but it works for me!

I think you may have quoted the wrong person...

1 hour ago, Sir Orrin said:

I can't wait to fly Inferno squad! If I can fit all four of them with Howlrunner and maybe an extra academy i'll be the happiest Xwing player alive!

You can probably fit them together with Howlrunner as well, which is great.

I will probably run 3 inferno aces + 1 normal ace in a list.

1 hour ago, underling said:

I've been flying a six TIE crack swarm list a lot over the past two years. Aside from heavy harpoon lists, I haven't found another 5+ ship list of *anything* that I wouldn't feel I had a good chance of beating. I don't use Academy TIEs, though, so that might make a difference. So my thought is that I'm going to wait until the core and Imperial conversion sets are released to see what combinations are available, before I start yelling that the sky is falling.

Dash + escort pretty much annihilates 6 crack swarm.

Any list that can PS kill Howlrunner before the PS4 Black Squadrons get to activate also are an uphill battle.

40 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

You can probably fit them together with Howlrunner as well, which is great.

I will probably run 3 inferno aces + 1 normal ace in a list.

At least Iden, Del, and Gideon. Seyn wasn't really a pilot. but all four of them with howlrunnner and and academy to block would be amazing!!!

8 hours ago, player2422845 said:

Tie swarm Will fly different from V1. They will be good, they will eat 5 cavern angels for breakfast and 3 jump master for lunch. They will be super blocker and have powerful synergies. They will be the rebel bias of v2. All with 0 shield squad. Imps are back in the game, because: no 360 turret + real imp only support upgrades

I wish I shared your optimism.

8 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

This is a definite.

Howlrunner boosting herself means you don't have to pack your entire squad within range 1 to justify her existence, concentrating bullseye makes massed crack shot black squadrons more awkward to deploy.

On the other hand, the number of boosting/barrel rolling large ships has dramatically reduced (and/or their ease of doing so)

A boosting large ship was always the nemesis of a TIE swarm - especially Dash - but now Dash has no access to boost, his barrel roll is red, Lone Wolf is once-per-turn, and you get a 4th green die at range 3.

Han/Luke/Millenium Falcon/Engine Upgrade still looks like a nightmare to face, but I'll accept that if we're looking at that ship essentially being an entire squad.

I will experiment with TIE-s surely, but I'm more of a Black sqd guy. I really like the Outmaneuver, afterburners combo on them, but I think it is not justified to put (likely) expensive cards on a cheap platform.

I guess large ships will be eaten by crack swarms, maybe the Falcon can kill them good.

I'm a bit skeptic about breaking up the approach. The TIE swarm wasn't the easiest list to play, and it got harder.

18 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Since the TIE fighter was used as benchmark during design, (this is why they haven't changed it), this means that 5 X-Wings will likely roll over pretty much anything.

Then the price will go up. Not that complicated tbh.

3 hours ago, chico2323 said:

Dash + escort pretty much annihilates 6 crack swarm.

Any list that can PS kill Howlrunner before the PS4 Black Squadrons get to activate also are an uphill battle.

Yep, HLCs can be bad. But I don't feel overmatched, or that I can't win.

Against multiple harpoons, it's usually more than a feeling.

FFG just gotta release the **** points already.

Too many "well, i-ship is better than j-ship" nonsense threads, which would be tolerable if we actually knew it to be the case. We don't.

For example: in @Commander Kaine 's example, a Blue Escort for 2-threat on the quick build has Proton Torps and a double-target lock droid. Each threat is about 25 points, but those are pretty big chunks. If rounding to the nearest 25, a Blue Escort with that kit could range anywhere from 38-62 points. If one was 62 instead of 50 points, it'd round to 2 threat, and given the upgrade cost guesses, that'd mean 48-50 for a naked one. Personally, my guess is going to be 41 points for the cheapest possible X-Wing.

As to Cavern Angel Zealot, I'd guess that, like in 1e, they're more expensive than Blues, but with more build options (we know they get Illicit slots, for example, might keep their Elite slot, and perhaps their cheaper Elite upgrade costs).

And just so everyone knows the worst part? There may be real, legitimate problems in faction balance based on ship costs. This could all be true. But we do not know.

FFG just gotta release the **** points already.

46 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

FFG just gotta release the **** points already.

Too many "well, i-ship is better than j-ship" nonsense threads, which would be tolerable if we actually knew it to be the case. We don't.

For example: in @Commander Kaine 's example, a Blue Escort for 2-threat on the quick build has Proton Torps and a double-target lock droid. Each threat is about 25 points, but those are pretty big chunks. If rounding to the nearest 25, a Blue Escort with that kit could range anywhere from 38-62 points. If one was 62 instead of 50 points, it'd round to 2 threat, and given the upgrade cost guesses, that'd mean 48-50 for a naked one. Personally, my guess is going to be 41 points for the cheapest possible X-Wing.

As to Cavern Angel Zealot, I'd guess that, like in 1e, they're more expensive than Blues, but with more build options (we know they get Illicit slots, for example, might keep their Elite slot, and perhaps their cheaper Elite upgrade costs).

And just so everyone knows the worst part? There may be real, legitimate problems in faction balance based on ship costs. This could all be true. But we do not know.

FFG just gotta release the **** points already.

I hear you

but

If the X-wing is 41 points, adding an 8 point torpedo makes it 49 points... Why would you add the droid in that case? You already have an almost 50 point ship.

Looking at the TIE fighter cards again, we can see that they add "filler" upgrades... Because no-one in their right mind would pay for a shield upgrade on TIE-s. But in the case of Academy pilot, they didn't include one, even though, they are also just 1 point shy of the upper limit of the threat level.

10 hours ago, underling said:

I've been flying a six TIE crack swarm list a lot over the past two years. Aside from heavy harpoon lists, I haven't found another 5+ ship list of *anything* that I wouldn't feel I had a good chance of beating. I don't use Academy TIEs, though, so that might make a difference. So my thought is that I'm going to wait until the core and Imperial conversion sets are released to see what combinations are available, before I start yelling that the sky is falling.

How have you been dealing with wookies? I know there are usually only 3-4 of them

8 hours ago, chico2323 said:

Dash + escort pretty much annihilates 6 crack swarm.

 Any list that can PS kill Howlrunner before the PS4 Black Squadrons get to activate also are an uphill battle.

He was talking about 5+ ship lists. I don't think there are many of these which can PS kill howlrunner before the blacks open fire.

3 hours ago, gadwag said:

How have you been dealing with wookies? I know there are usually only 3-4 of them 

He was talking about 5+ ship lists. I don't think there are many of these which can PS kill howlrunner before the blacks open fire.

The only one I can suggest is a TIE Fighter All-stars swarm, or a rebel equivalent with a mix of unique Headhunters, TIE fighters and Attack Shuttles. Certainly no generic available in a 5+ ship formation exceeds the PS of elite TIE fighters or TIE/fo fighters.

5 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

I hear you

but

If the X-wing is 41 points, adding an 8 point torpedo makes it 49 points... Why would you add the droid in that case? You already have an almost 50 point ship.

Looking at the TIE fighter cards again, we can see that they add "filler" upgrades... Because no-one in their right mind would pay for a shield upgrade on TIE-s. But in the case of Academy pilot, they didn't include one, even though, they are also just 1 point shy of the upper limit of the threat level.

It is possible that they don't value the torps at 8 points on low PS ships, either in general with dynamic pricing (which I doubt) or just for the threat level cards.

9 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

I hear you

but

If the X-wing is 41 points, adding an 8 point torpedo makes it 49 points... Why would you add the droid in that case? You already have an almost 50 point ship.

Looking at the TIE fighter cards again, we can see that they add "filler" upgrades... Because no-one in their right mind would pay for a shield upgrade on TIE-s. But in the case of Academy pilot, they didn't include one, even though, they are also just 1 point shy of the upper limit of the threat level.

I dunno. I'm not sure how rigorous all the threat-levels are. For example, Luke with Instinctive Aim, R2-D2, and Proton Torpedo is 3 threat. From the app preview picture, R2 is 10, and Protons are 8, so if Instinctive Aim is 3-ish, from the 75-point guess, Luke would be 54 points, or the 1e equivalent of 27. I was kind of under the impression that aces, particularly force-powered aces, are going to be relatively more expensive.

I personally just don't think FFG wants a 5 X-Wing swarm, because the balance would obviously be so far off. If they do intend this, they should just tell us. That's the bottom line. FFG should give us preliminary points costs. Almost anything else here seems like noise.

3 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

It is possible that they don't value the torps at 8 points on low PS ships, either in general with dynamic pricing (which I doubt) or just for the threat level cards.

This is one of my hopes. A Torpedo on high-initiative Luke Skywalker is probably worth 8 points. On a Blue, perhaps 6 or 7.

Threat levels are explicitly NOT specific, IIRC - thread 1 is basically academy pilots, zs, maybe scyks, naked. 2 is anywhere from that to 50 new points. THere is a range of 1/8 of a list per threat point.

On 7/10/2018 at 1:52 PM, Praetorate of the Empire said:

I think you may have quoted the wrong person...

fixed it! ? thanks.

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 3:39 PM, Praetorate of the Empire said:

Aside from LWF not being a thing in 2.0 (as far as we know), I wholeheartedly agree. I've already been enjoying heavy swarms here at the end of 1.0, and 5 of your Bombers is pretty good. I've also switched in a bare-bones "Countdown" to soak up some damage. This is currently great against 2-3 ship lists, which I don't entirely expect to change, especially since missiles and torps will still not allow for additional dice at Range 3.

The Lightweight Frame thing is a wash - it's nice now in 1.0, because 3 green dice and 6 hit points is a bugger to kill when you're only getting 20 points for achieving it. In 2.0, lightweight frame is gone, but expertise/target lock/guidance chip/palpatine/whatever else I've forgotten 5-dice cruise missile attacks aren't happening* so the threats you have to face are reduced too. If anyone remembers when bombers first came out, they were surprisingly effective just with their primary weapons as a mob of 6 because they took so much bloody killing (in fact they require more damage cards than there are in a standard damage deck....)

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 3:39 PM, Praetorate of the Empire said:

At the end of the day, I think Bombers got a mild indirect buff with the slight lowering in power levels. They already are sturdy enough to survive almost any alpha strike and even Fenn Rau (unless he rolls multiple crits against blanks) and were directly buffed on their dial and action bar, all while they maintain a solid offensive which will potentially have more viable ordinance options

They have one key problem - they still need to acquire target locks for most ordnance, which is and always has been hard if your target is higher Pilot Skill Initiative than you are; you move, target is not within range 3, you cannot lock them, they move into range 3 and lock you, then next turn they are into range 1 and under your minimum range.

This is an issue, because the traditional tools TIE bombers had to deal with this problem have gone away (Long Range Scanners is now Experimental Scanners, the E-wing ship ability, whilst Deadeye is now Predictive Aim, a Force power).

There are four options I've seen to deal with this:

• Higher Initiative pilots. Fortunately, we've kept all four TIE bomber unique pilots and they are all really, really good, and hopefully we don't have to pay an inexplicably massive surcharge for Major Rhymer anymore.
• Grand Moff Tarkin. He needs a bit of infrastructure to support him because few Imperial crew-carrying ships can target lock, meaning either a Decimator (expensive) or the Tarkin/Krennic road-trip buddy comedy, but the ability to mass-lock on one target before you move allows you to Koiogran turn behind people and shove missiles where the sun doth not shine.
• Range 1 or Range 1-2 missiles. Advanced Proton Torpedos and Cluster Missiles let you move into range to acquire a target lock, and then your opponent's move will (hopefully) carry them into closer range where you can shoot.
  • Cluster Missiles aren't amazing, but they're still a 3-dice attack which a TIE bomber doesn't normally get. Nothing forces you to use the 'scatter-fire' option, and if you don't, you've got 4 turns of X-wing level firepower at range 2 without needing a reload action. Captain Jonus, particularly, will be brutal with these things against close-packed enemies.
  • Advanced Proton Torpedoes remain range 1 but are 'whole arc' unlike heavy laser cannons and proton rockets, and still have proton torpedoes automatic hit-to-crit modification. The fact that you don't need target lock and focus to make them effective anymore makes them a scary option for a large group of bombers because it only takes one of them to get a shot off to really, really inconvenience even an intact fighter. Yes, you only get one shot but that means they shouldn't be extortionately expensive and you can always reload.
• Focus-triggered missiles. Proton Rockets and Barrage Rockets both don't actually need a lock to be effective.
  • Proton Rockets are going to be best with...something. Range 1-2 bull's-eye isn't bad, but either you need them en masse (to create a 'crossfire' of lethal bull's-eye arcs, or you need ion pulse missiles or similar tools to restrict your opponent's movement options, or you need to be hunting easier-to-hit large base ships. Lining up the shot (and still having a focus to fire the things) isn't easy - TIE advanced (with barrel roll/link/focus) might have an easier time, but even then, it's far from guaranteed because a barrel roll can easily carry your bull's-eye clean across a small base and off the other side.
  • Barrage Rockets are probably the best 'basic' armament for the TIE bomber if you're trying to turn it into a heavy swarm combatant. They give you 3 dice at range 2-3, matching rebel letter-wings and scum scrabble-tray-fighter, at range 1 you get 3 dice naturally with your primary weapons, focus is a nice, flexible action, they still benefit from Jonus' ability (unlike contemporary unguided rockets), and 5 shots (the most of any ordnance) should last you most of the game unless you're burning them on the bull's-eye ability and netting focus/reroll/no range defence bonus attacks, which is pretty darn skippy on a cheap generic in and of itself. Or - for elites - Saturation Salvo. Unloading a TIE bomber's entire rocket load in one attack is feasible, but that is a three dice attack with focus, and four dice - either red or green rerolled as the Imperial player sees fit, which is a painful concept to be on the receiving end of....

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 3:39 PM, Praetorate of the Empire said:

In the meantime, I'm mildly nervous about Wave I. If it is true that major tournaments are Wave I only, I'll have to get some regular TIE/ln's and actually learn how to fly the buggers. Currently I only have 2, and they aren't even from the original Core Set. ? But the abilities do look pretty nice and an Inferno Squad + Howlrunner or escorting a TIE Reaper could be pretty fun from the look of it all.

I hadn't heard that, and don't see why they should be (what prompted that comment?). Given that conversion sets are being released at the same time as the core set, why shouldn't they be legal? The Gencon event is wave 1 only, but that's fair enough as it's a pre-release event played with the stuff in the box.

On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 2:00 PM, thespaceinvader said:

Threat levels are explicitly NOT specific, IIRC - thread 1 is basically academy pilots, zs, maybe scyks, naked. 2 is anywhere from that to 50 new points. THere is a range of 1/8 of a list per threat point.

True. But it's not unreasonable to assume they've done their best to 'spend up' to that limit - the pre-built Black Squadron Ace is a good example - coming with stuff strapped to him you would never (in 1.0, admittedly) bother paying for as gear for a lowly TIE fighter generic.

* Yet.