5 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

As we can see from the threat cards 1 Blue squadron Escort with Protorps, R3 and Sfoils is 2 threat, so 50 points.

Protorps are 8 points. (there is a screenshot of the app showing this value)
R3 is basically weapons engineer, so I'm going to assume somewhere around 4-6 points
S-Foils I think will be free.
Which means, approx. 36-38 points for a naked Blue Squadron escort (with S-Foils)

Sounds like a sensible estimate. Bear in mind that a Rookie Pilot (at the moment) costs 19 points if given the various x-wing & partisan specific cards.

5 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

There is still the Cavern Angel, Initiative 1 X-Wing, which I presume will cost less.

Not necessarily. Remember that the Cavern Angels Zealot in 1.0 costs more than a higher PS Rookie, not less, and that one thing already stated is that Partisan units will get access to Illicit upgrades.

5 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Which means, you can have 5 X-Wings, with some cheap upgrades... Possibly with R4 astromech (if that also keeps a low price)

5 X-wings, I expect. 5 X-wings with an astromech - as you say, maybe, depends on the price of specific 'mechs (but since Integrated Astromech has gone away in favour of +1 hull, it's not exactly a big deal one way or the other).

We know R2-D2 is now 10 points and R5-D8 is now 7, from the same screenshot, so at least the unique 'mechs have gone up in price relative to their 4 point and 3 point costs in 1.0

2 hours ago, GILLIES291 said:

I'm ok with 5 X-wings being a thing as long as 10 TIE Fighters is also a thing.

Unlikely. Firstly, adding a 5th ship to a squad is doable - I've been playing a heavy swarm for over a year - but the time impact on the game of exceeding 8 ships on the board is huge. Plus, you start to have difficulty concentrating all your firepower on one target.

That said, it's possible (and the difference wouldn't be visible on the 'threat level' scale), and I wouldn't complain.

Most importantly, though:

Now, the Black Squadron Ace being two threat I understand. Firstly, it's not necessarily an 'optimised' way to spend points so much as 'how the heck do we make a TIE fighter worth 25 points using just the cards in the starter set?'

The more significant thing is the Academy Pilot being one threat. Okay, ten points 'rounds' to twelve, but if the intent was to have ten TIE fighters, I'd have thought they'd have built the quick builds on ten point lumps, not twelve-and-a-half (which they haven't since a squad is eight threat.

46 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

"How are you expected to win against 5 xwings with the classic swarm?"

At the moment, I'm not sure. I'm sadly out of practice with basic TIE fighters, but it does appear basic TIEs are essentially unchanged in dial and stats.

A lot will depend on the price of the unique pilots. A classic swarm was never 'just' 8 academy pilots, it was a bunch of academy pilots plus a handful of uniques or black squadron aces (I strongly suspect obsidian squadron can still go die in a fire unless there's something I'm missing in their upgrade bars; there's a reason 'mid level' generics have been removed from most ships).

Being able to throw in Howlrunner instantly ups the game of a swarm. Being able to throw in Howlrunner and Iden Versio, even more so, as you can ignore the first kill-shot on one of your TIEs.

Crack Shot is now bullseye only. Which makes it harder to use, but also potentially cheaper.

Essentially, it'll be dependent on what you can fit in to support the academy pilots.

But I suspect that forming up into a 2 x 4 brick and flying at 5 X-wings and expecting to win is probably a bad idea.

With greater numbers and enough warm bodies in the enemy squad that mutual collisions after an unexpected bump are likely, I suspect detailing an academy pilot as a blocker is not a bad idea.

5 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

On the other hand, 2 X-Wings can take down a TIE... If we look at the best case scenario, the whole squad can take down 5 TIEs in a round. 

Whilst possible, that's not especially realistic, though.

Assuming you've got rookies sorry, blue squadron, shoot first and are focused at a focused TIE fighter at range 2, with average rolls it takes 3 to 4 shots to bring down the TIE fighter.

That said, with 6 hit points and 2 dice focused versus 2 dice unmodified dice (because in a 'face off' you'll be shooting at someone who spent their focus attacking), you're unlikely to drop an X-wing in the return spread. Which means you then end up with two swarms smooshed together at close range. Being initiative 1 is sometimes an advantage (I know the board state meaning less unexpected blocks) and sometimes a curse (enemy ship is currently sitting exactly where I want to move to). Having all three speed turns is an advantage for the TIEs, having talon rolls an advantage for the X-wings. Range 1 is generally better for 2-dice ships, though, as they get a bigger proportional boost in firepower.

5 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

At this point, the X-Wing has double health, better dial, shields, better actions, better attack value

Yes to the first.

Hmm to the second. Talon Rolls and speed 1 straights and banks versus variable speed K-turns, speed 1 turns and speed 5 straights. I'll accept but I'm not convinced the X-wing dial is that much better

Better actions....again, a bit. Yes, the X-wing can target lock but a jouster both giving and receiving fire is going to focus unless it desperately needs to reposition. S-foils giving it boost (or boost + focus) is an advantage but one you need to lock in before your move; it's not as responsive as a TIE interceptor's boost.

Better attack value - agreed.

In short; I'm not convinced 8 Academy TIE fighters will beat 5 X-wings. I do think they can give them a bloody nose, but without playing multiple games I'm not sure who'll win the attrition fight - personally I'd bet on the X-wings, but I suspect there won't be many survivors, and I'm pretty sure it won't be an easy win for either side whoever comes out on top.

8 Academy Pilots will wreck other squads more effectively (things like an agility 0 decimator or ghost, whose reinforce token is almost irrelevant against 2-dice attacks and who can no longer boost out of arc of the swarm, is now massively fecked against a swarm like that), but I think they might be on the wrong side of a scissors-paper-stone squad matchup against a slightly-higher-but-higher-enough PS heavy swarm.

How 'a TIE swarm' can beat them is a different question; with a lot of very powerful looking unique TIE pilots, all of whom seem to punish you for not firing on them first, it'll depend on how many unique TIE pilots (who have the initiative advantage and often have really powerful damage boosting or deflecting abilities you can pack in an elite swarm.

I don't think the 'crackswarm' is likely to make a resurgence because whilst I expect crack shot to be cheap, and black squadron aces to be cheap, and the combination to be good, swarming them requires concentrated fire and concentrating fire with multiple bullseye attacks is probably a bit too challenging unless you're engaging large based ships (most of whom you probably don't need crack shot to hit).

32 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

And yet you keep doing it, almost daily in a new thread.

You glosses over an important question @BVRCH asked:

If we discuss the scenario without even mentioning its likelihood in any way: what do you want?

Blair went through it for you with the conclusion that everything is fine. You ignored that, but if you go back: what now?

These topics are preparing some manufactured outrage, which is not healthy for the community or game.

I missed Blair's post, because I was at work, switching between phone and PC, and occasionally working as well.

Why I went back to arguing? Frankly, I was frustrated, because you guys keep doing this. If you can interpret something the least helpful way, you will. I don't know if you are doing it on purpose, or my style is just that confusing. My theory is that people don't actually remember previous points, and I have to refer to things I've already said. @Magnus Grendel here is perfectly capable of understanding and answering the point, without starting to derail the conversation.

Which by the way, literally happens under every 2.0 post. Not just mine. "I don't think it is useful to talk about this until we know point values"... yeah... I get it. But some people obviously think so... So why you gotta mention it? Why do you feel like you need to point it out?

I've seen this in many posts. It's always the same thing. Nothing new is said. Nothing is added. Do you people think that we haven't heard that view before? Or that the fact that there are things we don't know yet shocks us?

Or... maybe... you know... We can assume that most topics about 2.0 are going to be speculative, until we have more info, and we could just learn to live with that fact. Instead of bringing it up...every....single...time.

Why do I wanna talk about this? Because I wanna talk about my favorite game damnit. I WOULD talk about factual stuff... and believe me, once we have those, I will.

So maybe it was wrong of me to get boggled down in this... But it wasn't me who brought it up.

@BVRCH...

Now back to you.

1. You call me out on my "tough guy act", and you do this... I mean... Okay, we can, but don't act morally superior, because you are not.

2. If you could, post your comments outside the quotes, I can't quote you back properly, this is just a hassle.

3. " There is no point to your disclaimers, you use them as an excuse for poor arguments, and hence why I ignore them. "

Yeah... No. That's now how it works. The disclaimer makes sense, because, as I've said it above, the fact that we do not know point values is well known. I made this post despite the fact. HOPING that it would come across that it is a hypothetical scenario. Obviously. But, just in case, I wrote it in. You called me out earlier for presenting them as facts... I didn't, I wasn't, because I am not an idiot. I am aware that we don't have point values. I don't claim to know them. The fact that I have to put "In my opinion..." there, is sad.

4. " You're understanding of your arguments flaws do not make them anymore valid. "

That... was sarcasm... I thought that... you know... Having the title say what I wanted to talk about, and the larger part of the text as well, was a dead give away. My title isn't misleading. My text isn't misleading. My post doesn't claim absolute knowledge... just a hypothetical.

5. " . So why bring this scenario up at all? There is nothing to discuss if that's the case. And I do agree, that is the case. "

Because I want to discuss it? Because it might actually happen? And if you don't want to discuss, you don't have to.

6. " Hyperbole to accentuate your fallacies. You partake in this daily, and since logic and reasoning doesn't seem to work with you, I thought I'd try it on. "

If you do actually read my stuff, you know that logic and reasoning actually works.

Also... what?

You make a crappy argument, I call you out on it, and you say that you were just copying me?

So you know... I used made up point values (and I made that fact clear), to illustrate a point. According to you, this warrants several posts where YOU need to clarify why those point values might be wrong.
...

I know.

...

You are missing the point however. The point is to talk about 5-Xwings in the 2.0 meta, as a possibility.

Not about the likelihood of possibility.

I don't know why is it so difficult for some to skip addressing something, that I already addressed. In this post. In previous posts. And in most 2.0 posts, it also comes up.

But yeah. I'm guilty of biting the bait.

17 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

The point is to talk about 5-Xwings in the 2.0 meta, as a possibility.

Not about the likelihood of possibility.

It's surely not that unlikely, either.

1. People will like to field such a squad because....you know....Star Wars = X-wings to a lot of people. People have wanted to use them pretty much since the start of the game.
2. People finally seem to be waking up to the fact that heavy swarms work - something that @FTS Gecko has been pointing out since about 2015.
3. There will be new players (hopefully! or the game is kind of buggered...) who are essentially only going to have core set + wave 1 stuff (plus wave 14 of 1.0, since that's essentially another 2.0 wave). Given that there are only 4 2.0 rebel boxes available to a new rebel X-wing player, and 3 of them have a T-65 X-wing in them, such a player's first 200 point squad being 5 X-wings is not especially unlikely.

33 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

1. People finally seem to be waking up to the fact that heavy swarms work - something that @FTS Gecko has been pointing out since about 2015.

15-20 attack dice ain't nothing to be sniffed at. And that will go doubly so for 2nd edition, when action-based modifiers become much more valuable than they are now.

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

The point is to talk about 5-Xwings in the 2.0 meta, as a possibility.

Is it though? Because I don‘t believe you. To me, this thread is another try to rile up some negativity, to get others to acknowledge what you call ‚rebel bias‘.

In short: the point is to talk about a new falling sky before we even have the game. Hence the pushback, hence the attack on your assumptions.

A discussion in good faith, as Blair and MagnusGrendel did, is very interesting. But gathering negativity is not. Remember that topic where you claimed that everyone screams hater (e: Whining, I believe) and how you percieve it as unfair as their criticism allegedly helps the game? I think this thread is a perfect example. Be more like Magnus.

The matchup depends a lot on the prices of Howlrunner and Versio. If they fit with 6 generics (which I don't expect) it's ez pz lemon squeazy for the TIEs. Else it depends on what fits with those two.

That being said, I don't expect 5X to be much of a thing.

8 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

How is the TIE swarm supposed to defend against that? How do you beat it? They are inferior in every way imaginable. You can't outmaneuver them... You don't really have overwhelming numbers.

The TIE swarm loses horribly.

There are 2 conclusions from this.

1. FFG will have made a big mistake
2. Your assumptions are wrong and FFG won't have made a big mistake

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

But yeah. I'm guilty of biting the bait.

Cool. I've had my fun. I'm done now.

Tie swarm Will fly different from V1. They will be good, they will eat 5 cavern angels for breakfast and 3 jump master for lunch. They will be super blocker and have powerful synergies. They will be the rebel bias of v2. All with 0 shield squad. Imps are back in the game, because: no 360 turret + real imp only support upgrades

8 minutes ago, player2422845 said:

Tie swarm Will fly different from V1.

This is a definite.

Howlrunner boosting herself means you don't have to pack your entire squad within range 1 to justify her existence, concentrating bullseye makes massed crack shot black squadrons more awkward to deploy.

On the other hand, the number of boosting/barrel rolling large ships has dramatically reduced (and/or their ease of doing so)

A boosting large ship was always the nemesis of a TIE swarm - especially Dash - but now Dash has no access to boost, his barrel roll is red, Lone Wolf is once-per-turn, and you get a 4th green die at range 3.

Han/Luke/Millenium Falcon/Engine Upgrade still looks like a nightmare to face, but I'll accept that if we're looking at that ship essentially being an entire squad.

5 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Lone Wolf is once-per-turn,

Do we already have examples of defensive abilities that are not limited to once per turn? Maybe Luke?

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Do we already have examples of defensive abilities that are not limited to once per turn? Maybe Luke?

Luke (one force token versus each attack), Millennium Falcon (if evading, reroll your evade dice), Del (reroll 1 defence dice against damaged attackers), Concordia face-off (1 result changed to evade against attackers that have you at range 1 in arc).

9 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Luke (one force token versus each attack), Millennium Falcon (if evading, reroll your evade dice), Del (reroll 1 defence dice against damaged attackers), Concordia face-off (1 result changed to evade against attackers that have you at range 1 in arc).

That means Del and Concordia are still not good against swarms in that regard. You won‘t damage 7 ships for Del, and you don‘t want to end up at R1 of an entire swarm.

But Luke and Han (sorry, MF!) are pretty good off to defend against swarms. That‘s interesting, and maybe no coincidence.

8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That means Del and Concordia are still not good against swarms in that regard. You won‘t damage 7 ships for Del, and you don‘t want to end up at R1 of an entire swarm.

But Luke and Han (sorry, MF!) are pretty good off to defend against swarms. That‘s interesting, and maybe no coincidence.

Indeed. Luke and Han facing a swarm is a classic image, so pilot abilities which help this are not unlikely. Note that Poe Dameron's ability is similar, when he appears in a box where it's a lone X-wing taking on a shedload of TIE/fo.

By comparison, Del & Gideon (both of whom trigger off 'a damaged enemy ship') are very suitable to be fighting a single, big ship which will be in a 'damaged' state for some time, like, say, a YT-1300. Equally, Skutu's ability requires a bullseye shot, which is infinitely easier to achieve with a large based ship than a small.

This is real simple;

8 tie fighters= 16 attack dice vs 10 defense dice

5 X wings = 15 attack dice vs 24 defense dice

56 minutes ago, dharris9308 said:

This is real simple;

8 tie fighters= 16 attack dice vs 10 defense dice

5 X wings = 15 attack dice vs 24 defense dice

Not entirely representative; after all, you don't get to roll multiple ship's defence dice against each attack....

as a very, very simplistic and totally unrealistic work through the numbers:

An unmodified 3-dice attack gets an average of 1.5 damage. An unmodified 3-dice defence gets an average of 1.125 evades. That means the X-wings would be lobbing about 0.375 damage per attack.

Killing 8 3-hit TIE fighters with unmodified 3-dice attacks would therefore take about 64 attacks

An unmodified 2-dice attack gets an average of 1 damage. An unmodified 3-dice defence gets an average of 0.75 evades. That means the TIEs would be lobbing about 0.25 damage per attack.

Killing 5 6-hit X-wings with unmodified 2-dice attacks therefore take about 120 attacks

So the X-wings as a squad are, at first glance, about twice as tough. Meaning a straight head-on pass is (as I suggested) a bad idea.

Where this calculation isn't representative, and where the TIE fighters can claw back some ground, is:

• Going from 2 dice to 3 is much bigger than going from 3 dice to 4, especially since the TIE fighters can get up to 8 extra attack dice, not 5, in the theoretical 'perfect situation' where everyone has a range 1 shot.
• This assumes everyone has a shot. A swarm of academy pilots moves first and can set up action-denying blocks that, with 13 ships on the board (5 x-wings and 8 TIEs) can cause a train-wreck of collisions that can deny actions to a large proportion of the enemy squad.
• Whichever TIE fighter gets focus-fired by the X-wings is probably going to explode, but since the X-wings fire first, the TIE fighters get to whomp on whichever ship spent its focus token, whilst the surviving TIE fighters still have theirs. Modified attack dice vs unmodified defence dice is a fast way to cut up ships.

Essentially, I'm not saying the TIE fighter is dead. But what it isn't is king of the head-on joust anymore. Just like when confronted with the TIE/x7 defender, it needs to learn to actually swarm - rather than just 'fly in big blocks' - and use its numerical advantage to block, trap, and generally outmanoeuvre its opponents.

Assuming that their points costs remains the same, 5 x Zealous Recruits are another good example.

With Concordia Face-off now working whenever the fang is inside an opponent's forward arc at range 1, and with it being a baked-in ship ability not an upgrade, any attempt to engage fangs in the sort of range 1 dog-pile that an 8-ship TIE swarm has traditionally preferred is a waste of time. Even if the fang has no focus token, and its attacker does, with Concordia face-off in play (even if you're on his tail!) it takes an average of something like 22 range 1 attacks for a TIE fighter to kill the dratted thing. But firing a range 3 shot with 2 dice at an agility 3 target means 2 red dice versus 4 green dice - even without 1.0 autothrusters, you'll be lucky to even wing it.

So you have to set up range 2 shots. But you also probably need to block them because they've got barrel roll/link/focus and boost/link/focus, so any thoughts of concentrating fire has to allow for dramatic repositioning without them losing tokens...and because you still need to be throwing 2 dice with tokens at 3 dice without to reliably hurt them.

Again, loose, cleverly flown swarms, not unwieldy brick formations, are the order of the day.

My regular X-Wing sparring partner has talked about trying a 5X list and I thought a fun match up would be to fly all generics against him, but with a more balanced force. My list would consist of 4 Academy Pilots and 2 Saber Squadron with PTL and Autothrusters. The Sabres can arc dodge and hit just as hard as X-Wings, while the Academy boys fly cover, blocking whenever possible and throwing pot shots when the opportunity arises. The Rookies hit harder overall and have more total health, but this is a far more challenging match up than just 8 TIEs.

This also seems to be how the 2.0 version will likely play out. Squints come with repositioning abilities built-in. They're the "space superiority fighter" of the Empire, designed to counter the Rebellion's "space superiority fighter" (the X-Wing). Standard TIEs aren't a match for X-Wings, but that's why there are so many versions of TIE - they're not alone out there, they have friends.

You assume a 'traditional' TIE Swarm will be a thing... why exactly?

There are a whole mess of amazing named TIE abilities in 2e that synergise to form swarms way stronger than the base ships - and even then, the 8-tie swarm in 1e wasn't baseline even for TIE swarms at any time since I've been playing, the crack swarm or pattiswarm were.

I wouldn't expect 8 ties to kill 5 x wings. I would expect 7 ties to kill 5x wings, because 7 ties get better PS, better mods, more abilities, some alpha protection, etc etc etc. I'm really hoping we'll be able to get Howl, Wampa, Iden, Seyn, etc etc, all together in one list. Certainly Iden, Howl, and Wampa will be a very strong core. You want to shoot ALL of them first.

6 minutes ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

My regular X-Wing sparring partner has talked about trying a 5X list and I thought a fun match up would be to fly all generics against him, but with a more balanced force. My list would consist of 4 Academy Pilots and 2 Saber Squadron with PTL and Autothrusters. The Sabres can arc dodge and hit just as hard as X-Wings, while the Academy boys fly cover, blocking whenever possible and throwing pot shots when the opportunity arises. The Rookies hit harder overall and have more total health, but this is a far more challenging match up than just 8 TIEs.

That should be a really fun game. Enjoy!

I've tried a similar list with 6 academy pilots and a TIE/x7 Delta Squadron pilot. Swarm + aces is much stronger than swarm alone.

Or, as @thespaceinvader suggests, elite swarms - not only do you get the initiative advantage and the numerical advantage, but so many of the 2.0 TIE fighter aces have one means or another to get an extra attack dice (Gideon Haas, 'Scourge' Skutu, 'Mauler' Mithel and 'Wampa' all get a base 3rd attack die in different circumstances) that you're not even especially short on firepower either.

Or, matching with a heavy swarm of your own - either 5 x Strikers (ailerons/lightweight frame) or 5 x TIE bombers (lightweight frame, unguided rockets) will probably offer an interesting game.

31 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Again, loose, cleverly flown swarms, not unwieldy brick formations, are the order of the day.

This is something I enjoyed flying in 1st Ed. (albeit Rebel), so bring on 2nd Ed. TIE swarms!

As a complete aside, talking about points costs:

Vader is 4 threat - meaning 50 points in 1.0 terms!

Now granted, that's a pretty terrifying build:

• Darth Vader
  • Supernatural Reflexes
  • Fire Control System
  • Cluster Missiles
  • Afterburners
  • Shield Upgrade

But we're still looking at a huge investment to field him.

If the upgrades are (proportionally) unchanged in price, then that puts Del Meeko at 19 points and Gideon at the same price. That's not looking promising for the TIE fighter all-stars to be mostly around the 16 point mark a la Backstabber that would let you field them in droves.

My TIEs will prevail over the Rebel scum!

this is assuming xwings will still be that cheap in 2.0

Remember theyre getting quite the overhaul compared to 1.0, both the dial/hp/actions are getting buffed. TIE fighter got some nifty abilities, thats it. In fact they got weaker because of evade change.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Again, loose, cleverly flown swarms, not unwieldy brick formations, are the order of the day. 

Perfect explanation.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Or, matching with a heavy swarm of your own - either 5 x Strikers (ailerons/lightweight frame) or 5 x TIE bombers (lightweight frame, unguided rockets) will probably offer an interesting game.

Aside from LWF not being a thing in 2.0 (as far as we know), I wholeheartedly agree. I've already been enjoying heavy swarms here at the end of 1.0, and 5 of your Bombers is pretty good. I've also switched in a bare-bones "Countdown" to soak up some damage. This is currently great against 2-3 ship lists, which I don't entirely expect to change, especially since missiles and torps will still not allow for additional dice at Range 3.

At the end of the day, I think Bombers got a mild indirect buff with the slight lowering in power levels. They already are sturdy enough to survive almost any alpha strike and even Fenn Rau (unless he rolls multiple crits against blanks) and were directly buffed on their dial and action bar, all while they maintain a solid offensive which will potentially have more viable ordinance options.

This is what I'm eagerly looking forward to.

In the meantime, I'm mildly nervous about Wave I. If it is true that major tournaments are Wave I only, I'll have to get some regular TIE/ln's and actually learn how to fly the buggers. Currently I only have 2, and they aren't even from the original Core Set. ? But the abilities do look pretty nice and an Inferno Squad + Howlrunner or escorting a TIE Reaper could be pretty fun from the look of it all.