8 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

It's weird that this would get likes, since it's pretty much the worst possibility, in terms of reflecting on FFG's decisions.

I'm guessing the "Like" in this case is more agreement with the statement, not a value judgement on FFGs decision.

4 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

It's weird that this would get likes, since it's pretty much the worst possibility, in terms of reflecting on FFG's decisions.

It encourages everyone who wants to buy a conversion kit to buy their own. How is that bad, from FFG's point of view? Just because it doesn't personally cater to your collection strategy doesn't make it objectively bad.

I do accept that there is such a thing as objective truth. It does not follow, though, that every issue is either objectively good or objectively bad.

1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

It encourages everyone who wants to buy a conversion kit to buy their own. How is that bad, from FFG's point of view?

If you can't see how that's bad -- even from FFG's point of view -- I cannot think of any way to explain it to you that hasn't already been laid out.

40 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

So ... does the Scum and Villainy one include everything from, say, the Fang fighter?

37 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

just the stuff unique to the packs. in this case Joy, Frost and Marauder, which would not have otherwise been in the conversion kit.

27 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

So ... no.

But... FFG never said the card only packs would contain "everything" from the ships re-released in the wave. They've said it would contain new cards that don't come in the Core Set or the Conversion Kit. Which is EXACTLY what the scum kit baggie contains. No more and no less.

People have been speculating that the card-only packs will contain extra generics or extra copies of previously released upgrades. I think those people are going to be disappointed. Similar to how those who missed or ignored "by maneuver dials included" are disappointed now.

Now the Fang article does have one statement that is flat out untrue (assuming the Fang expansion includes the Afterburners* upgrade):

"All of the ship and upgrade cards included in the Fang Fighter Expansion Pack can also be found in the Scum and Villainy Conversion Kit. "

Though I really think this is more a misstatement than an intentional lie. I think what they meant to say is "All of the ship and upgrade cards included in the Fang Fighter Expansion Pack can also be found in the Scum and Villainy Conversion Kit or the Core Set. "

***** I just realized I've been saying Autothrusters when I meant Afterburners. Need to make some edits later!

8 minutes ago, JamesWG said:

Though I really think this is more a misstatement than an intentional lie.

At this point I have to wonder ... is there any circumstance in which you would start to wonder whether FFG's "misstatements" and "completely literal truths that should have been obvious" and so on are actually less than honest?

If so, what's your threshold?

If not ... ?

Yeah the dial numbers are not the actuallly supported by the kit numbers. It’s kind of annoying! I really would have preferred generic base inserts.

9 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

At this point I have to wonder ... is there any circumstance in which you would start to wonder whether FFG's "misstatements" and "completely literal truths that should have been obvious" and so on are actually less than honest?

If so, what's your threshold?

If not ... ?

Honestly, how does it benefit them to lie, when the truth is coming out so far ahead of release anyway? Correcting what you said earlier is what you do if you misspeak or change your mind, not what you do when you lie. If they were lying, I would expect greater effort to maintain the lie, at least until much closer to release. If they are lying, they're really bad at it.

32 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Honestly, how does it benefit them to lie, when the truth is coming out so far ahead of release anyway?

First, because apparently reading exactly what people write only works for some people when it's FFG, I want to be very clear that I'm not saying that they're lying. (I am definitely saying they're being -- and have been -- deliberately misleading.)

Second, I ... okay, I'm going to answer, but this is so obvious that I sincerely apologize if it comes off as patronizing. There's just no getting around how simple the answer is.

It benefits them "to lie" (to be misleading) because many, many people make their decisions to buy into something -- like 2.0 -- based on the information they have at the time. Once a consumer makes that decision, the possibility of the consumer changing his or her decision is low. This is a well known principle of human psychology, and thus a well known principle of marketing.

I'll use myself as an example, though I'm not actually an ideal example for a few reasons (the biggest one being that I have plenty of disposable income). When I read about 2.0 and the CKs, I bought in hard. I evidently did miss one of their literal parenthetical disclaimers, and instead went with what they said and heavily implied in promotional videos and other materials. I led the cheer-leading squad for them; you can find my posts to that effect with very little effort.

It was a solid month later that people, including me, started seeing the holes in the front that FFG was putting up. Gradually, I have become more critical of their choices and strategy.

But I'm still in for 2.0 . As of right now, not even counting pre-orders, I've spent a solid $80 on 2.0 materials, such as new templates and tokens. (And this doesn't even include the first 2.0 release, on which I spent $100+, namely Wave 14.) I am getting more and more annoyed as FFG for their misleading "tone," to use the word someone else used, but I cannot see myself backing out of 2.0. And it has nothing to do with the money; for lack of a better word, I am psychologically invested.

That's how it benefits FFG to mislead their 1.0 customers ... even when the things they're misleading us about are coming to light. And it will continue to benefit them -- and the downside will come much slower -- with every "but that's not exactly what they said" apologist that comes along.

27 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

First  , because ap  parently reading exactly what people write only works for s  ome people when it's FF  G  ,

True. For example, look at the number of people that couldn’t read the part about “by maneuver dials” in the conversion kit contents.

I think that if for anything, they can be faulted for the lack of transparency.

Their communications are misleading. It's hard to think its not on purpose. Not including everything in the conversion kit (like tokens, generics, etc) might be fine, but we also shouldn't have to investigate the situation. They should have clearly stated this, and other questions we have (like card packs? What's up with those?)

Sounds like the OP is making a mountain out of a mole hill. Until, you see the official costs via the app or pdf on the website, it's all speculation. Save the end of the world posts for when it actually is the end of the world.

19 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

What information is included on the playing field?

• Ship Upgrades ---- no
• Ship Hull --- no
• Ship Shields ---- no
• Ship actions ----- no
• Ship's possible moves ---- no
• Ship's pilot ability ---- no
• Ship's title ability ---- no

You have to lookup ALL of that information. Adding a pilot NAME, pilot initiative, and colored firing arc doesn't speedup play. Assuming the FFG app allows you to load your opponents list, it will be trivial to lookup.

Your very wrong,

Almost all of those things i can easily remember, i know those things i see a tie fighter i know what it is (and i can reference any tie fighter)

A ship pilot name and initiative are different for every tie fighter, i would have to back reference what each tie fighter on the board was to its cards just to figure out when it activated.

What is on the cards now is the stuff that changes for each ship of the same type so looking at the board i know:
1- its a tie fighter
2- what tie fighter it is
3- when it activates

And all of that stuff is critical any annoying to back reference to every ship especially in a swarm.

FFG trimmed off the stuff i do not need and left the stuff i do need. it was very well done design wise.

41 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:

True. For example, look at the number of people that couldn’t read the part about “by maneuver dials” in the conversion kit contents.

But how do you interpret “by maneuver dial”? What does that actually mean? Personally, I take that as each maneuver dial will be able to field the full spectrum of pilots at the same time. As packaged, they can not. The addition of one generic pilot would change this.

29 minutes ago, Woobyluv said:

Sounds like the OP is making a mountain out of a mole hill. Until, you see the official costs via the app or pdf on the website, it's all speculation. Save the end of the world posts for when it actually is the end of the world.

I’m not making a mountain out of anything. I simply pointed out that two dials does not equal two full conversions. Two JM5K dials from the Conversion Kit does not let you play two Contracted Scouts.

However, you are right. Until we get the full rules and full access to the app, we won’t know if running two Contracted Scouts is even allowed. I see no reason why it wouldn’t.

11 minutes ago, drail14me said:

I’m not making a mountain out of anything. I simply pointed out that two dials does not equal two full conversions. Two JM5K dials from the Conversion Kit does not let you play two Contracted Scouts.

I thought there were two contracted scout pilot cards in the conversion box. is there not?

Nope. just checked the vid only one. Yeah, that kinda sucks.

3 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

I thought there were two contracted scout pilot cards in the conversion box. is there not?

In the unboxing video I watched, I only saw one Contracted Scout Ship Token and Pilot Card. Same for YV-666. Another poster explained that the conversion sets are set up to have half of any swarm generics. So, two conversion kits would let you fly two Contracted Scouts or two Transdoshian Slavers, or four Y-Wings, or 5 T-65s. After looking at the kits in the videos, this holds true.

Just now, drail14me said:

In the unboxing video I watched, I only saw one Contracted Scout Ship Token and Pilot Card. Same for YV-666. Another poster explained that the conversion sets are set up to have half of any swarm generics. After looking at the kits in the videos, this holds true.

interesting about the swarm count. Disappointing but not deal breaking. makes me want to sell one of my Jumpmasters and buy the new one when it launches. But then, I'm stuck with an extra 2nd E dial..... oh well, if that's the worst thing to happen to me, things must be pretty darn good!

32 minutes ago, drail14me said:

But how do you interpret “by maneuver dial”? What does that actually mean? Personally, I take that as each maneuver dial will be able to field the full spectrum of pilots at the same time. As packaged, they can not. The addition of one generic pilot would change this.

I took it as

"there are this many maneuver dials for this ship" with the assumption that there would be a reasonable amount of the other stuff a ship needs (which there is), with details to be filled in later (which it was).

I took as "there are this many dials for this ship" assuming that there would be a reasonable amount of stuff for that many ships. I'm transitioning into the feeling misled camp. still all in though.

On ‎7‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 12:44 PM, drail14me said:

For me, the disappointment comes from not being able to trade. I was looking forward to trading off some scum ships I don’t need for some empire and Rebel ships.

Yeah. This is going to change my whole upgrade strategy for 2.0.

13 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

Yeah. This is going to change my whole upgrade strategy for 2.0.

i have to agree, we where already discussing trades in my local area

1 hour ago, PanchoX1 said:

I took as "there are this many dials for this ship" assuming that there would be a reasonable amount of stuff for that many ships. I'm transitioning into the feeling misled camp. still all in though.

17 minutes ago, Darth evil said:

i have to agree, we where already discussing trades in my local area

I’m still all in as well but yes, my trade plans are out the door.

I was watching the videos and making a spreadsheet of items I wanted to trade. Then was going to post a GenCon meet and trade event. I was hoping to be able to balance out things for a couple of swarm lists I run. That’s out the window now.

Instead, I’m now trying to decide if I want a second Rebel and Empire Conversion Kit or just wait and buy some individual Expansions with ships with new tooling and put old ships on the shelf.

2 hours ago, Icelom said:

Your very wrong,

Can you please be respectful. Here is the information that I posted:

Quote

What information is included on the playing field?

•  Ship Upgrades ---- no
• Ship Hull --- no
• Ship Shields ---- no
• Ship actions ----- no
• Ship's possible moves ---- no
• Ship's pilot ability ---- no
• Ship's title ability ---- no

You have to lookup ALL of that information. Adding a pilot NAME, pilot initiative, and colored firing arc doesn't speedup play. Assuming the FFG app allows you to load your opponents list, it will be trivial to lookup.

The information that I posted is FACTUAL. The playing field is the 3x3 play area (or 3x6 if you are playing 300pt epic) for your reference.

2 hours ago, Icelom said:

Almost all of those things i can easily remember, i know those things i see a tie fighter i know what it is (and i can reference any tie fighter)

Each ship in 2.0 has an ID tag on the ship base. For me, I can easily remember all the things that you can easily remember but associate that memory with the ID tag on the ship.

2 hours ago, Icelom said:

What is on the cards now is the stuff that changes for each ship of the same type so looking at the board i know:
1- its a tie fighter
2- what tie fighter it is
3- when it activates

And all of that stuff is critical any annoying to back reference to every ship especially in a swarm.

When I play x-wing, I cannot read the pilot name on the ship template especially if I just quickly look at the board state. In order to read the pilot name on the ship template, you have to orient yourself to the ship's orientation and really get a good look. Its my opinion that using the ID token is a much FASTER reference.

As for x-wing 1.0, many times, the ship's PS (now initiative) was not correct anyways thanks to VI, ship abilities, and other upgrade cards.

10 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

When I play x-wing, I cannot read the pilot name on the ship template [...]

As for x-wing 1.0, many times, the ship's PS (now initiative) was not correct anyways thanks to VI , ship abilities, and other upgrade cards.

FWIW, I'm in the same boat, and would extend it to ship/pilot/upgrade cards. I've never understood why people would want to use the cards exclusively (as opposed to a good printout, or the cards and a good printout in higher-tier events). It's not like a normal person can read them across the table.

(Personally, I always bring a printout for me and a printout for my opponent. It's funny how appreciative people are, while I'm just shrugging and wondering why everybody doesn't do that.)

That's also a good point about the PS so frequently being wrong. The worst thing is that you could buy a nice little acrylic plug-in to change your ship's displayed PS ... but it uses the slots where an ID token's supposed to go! D'oh!

3 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

First, because apparently reading exactly what people write only works for some people when it's FFG, I want to be very clear that I'm not saying that they're lying. (I am definitely saying they're being -- and have been -- deliberately misleading.)

Second, I ... okay, I'm going to answer, but this is so obvious that I sincerely apologize if it comes off as patronizing. There's just no getting around how simple the answer is.

It benefits them "to lie" (to be misleading) because many, many people make their decisions to buy into something -- like 2.0 -- based on the information they have at the time. Once a consumer makes that decision, the possibility of the consumer changing his or her decision is low. This is a well known principle of human psychology, and thus a well known principle of marketing.

I'll use myself as an example, though I'm not actually an ideal example for a few reasons (the biggest one being that I have plenty of disposable income). When I read about 2.0 and the CKs, I bought in hard. I evidently did miss one of their literal parenthetical disclaimers, and instead went with what they said and heavily implied in promotional videos and other materials. I led the cheer-leading squad for them; you can find my posts to that effect with very little effort.

It was a solid month later that people, including me, started seeing the holes in the front that FFG was putting up. Gradually, I have become more critical of their choices and strategy.

But I'm still in for 2.0 . As of right now, not even counting pre-orders, I've spent a solid $80 on 2.0 materials, such as new templates and tokens. (And this doesn't even include the first 2.0 release, on which I spent $100+, namely Wave 14.) I am getting more and more annoyed as FFG for their misleading "tone," to use the word someone else used, but I cannot see myself backing out of 2.0. And it has nothing to do with the money; for lack of a better word, I am psychologically invested.

That's how it benefits FFG to mislead their 1.0 customers ... even when the things they're misleading us about are coming to light. And it will continue to benefit them -- and the downside will come much slower -- with every "but that's not exactly what they said" apologist that comes along.

I'm sorry if you feel misled, but I would have thought someone so aware of how marketing works would be a bit more cautious about differentiating between what the company says and what the community infers. As I've said, I haven't seen a lot of the promotional material, so I can't speak to how much FFG actually implied, but I'm 100% certain (based on my experience with other release articles) that the community bears at least a little blame for misleading itself and reading more into some statements than even the most optimistic outlook could really justify.

In short, you may be right and FFG may have been deliberately misleading. However, even if that's the case, I have a hard time seeing how the community reached some of the conclusions they did unless they misled themselves a fair bit, too.

2 hours ago, drail14me said:

But how do you interpret “by maneuver dial”? What does that actually mean? Personally, I take that as each maneuver dial will be able to field the full spectrum of pilots at the same time. As packaged, they can not. The addition of one generic pilot would change this.

I took it to mean that when they said "2" they meant "2 maneuver dials and at least two separate pilot bases," with nothing about whether or not those bases could be the same. Adding a single generic pilot might help in many cases, but they'd either have to print more cardboard or remove one of the unique pilots to make space. I get that people who fly swarms are disappointed, but there's something to be said for having more unique options, too.

14 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

(Personally, I always bring a printout for me and a printout for my opponent. It's funny how appreciative people are, while I'm just shrugging and wondering why everybody doesn't do that.)

It doesn't necessarily work for extremely casual games where you're throwing a list together after arriving at the store, but for more organized play that's a really good and considerate idea!