No, I think you may be missing the fact that however you want to label it, if you claim that something is other than what it is, you're lying. Doesn't matter whether that part of a "strategy" or not. That's just a simple, irrefutable fact. If you tell me that the flower in your hand is blue but I can clearly see it's green, that's called a "lie."

Nothing different here. If you pick up 5 cards and claim that there are NO 2-cost support cards found therein BUT there are, then we would call that "lying." It's really pretty clear.

I'm not worried about how you're interpreting the strategy or whatever, I'm just pointing out that if you feel that it's an okay strategy for you to blatantly lie to your opponent, that's your deal. I don't plan to play that way, personally. For me it is, still, just a game and I'd like to not let winning or losing have such a huge impact on my gaming habits that I need to resort to fabrication in order to get an edge - however slight that may be.

YMMV.

You're missing the point that it is impossible to have an unenforcible rule. There cannot possibly be a rule that a DCC player must put a support into play if an eligible one is found. Therefore, it would also be totally legal for me to play DCC, look at the top 5 cards, ANNOUNCE to my opponent and God that I pulled a Grudge Thrower and 4 non-supports, CHOOSE not to put anything into play and then put the cards back on top of my deck.

I'm not lying about anything. I'm not breaking any rules, so I'm not cheating. I'm making a strategic decision. A strategic decision that is not immoral in any way.

And then next game I'm going to switch to a Destruction deck and play Warp Lightning Cannons all over your units! :-p

i understand Dwarf Cannon Crew as mandatory, if there is a support among the searched cards.

in tournaments, a referee should be called to check these cards in this case. if it is ruled as "may", it would be easier but i like the possible drawback (i only found a Warpstone Excavation once as i played DCC in my BZ to have a Grudge Thrower)

f7eleven said:

Well like most of us have said, if you actually decide NOT to play the card, that's certainly your choice. I'm referring to a situation where you DO pull a playable card but your opponent won't know if you did or not and you declare that you did not, in fact, pull a playable card from the top 5. That's considered lying by Webster's Dictionary. That's all my point is...I honestly don't care about the ruling for this card, I was primarily taking exception to your claims that doing what I've laid out in my sentence above was somehow not lying. The situation you describe is different since you actually told your opponent the truth about what you drew from the deck and simply chose NOT to play the card...that's fine, you're being honest.

Supa said:

Mister Mask said:

Another card game (MECCG to name it) had a simple rule to handle such a card effect (it was added for tournament, BTW) : if none of the card seached was eligible, you had to show your opponent enought of the cards to let verify the effect is correctly handled. So, in WH:I this would end up if none of the searched cards is a support, you would show the card type of all the searched cards (arranging them to hide as much of the other infos as you want.

Personnaly, I simply reveal the cards to my opponent if none of them is a support card.

I suspect that we will see an errata that changes the wording to "reveal the top 5 cards". I also read the IF ABLE as a mandate to play the card unless it is prohibited by text such as "Zone X only"

RexGator said:

I agree with both statements. You would also not be able to play the unique High Elf support if one is already in play in that zone.

from James

Hi,

1) You can reshuffle your deck without playing anything.

2) You must still reshuffle the deck.

James

On Mar 23, 2010, at 9:08 AM, <[email protected]> <[email protected]> wrote:

> Rule Question:
> Sorry for bad English... I'm italian
> the question is about Dwarf Cannon Crew.

1) If I play it in my Kingdom zone and I find, in 5 cards, only the Grudge Thrower I'm forced to play it in KZ (so it is useless...) or I can simply reshuffle my deck without playing anything?
2) If I don't find a support I must reshuffle the deck or I put the 5 cards on top of deck?

FACE!

Well actually only a half-face since what you previously said was:

f7eleven said:

Emphasis added by me.

You were correct that you are not going to be forced to play a support card you do not want to play in the zone where you played DCC. You were incorrect about getting to "preview" your next 5 cards and put them back on top of the deck.

In the long run the "preview" aspect was more troubling and I think this ruling makes dwarf deck construction and playing DCC a little less troublesome.

Ha! Thanks Rex. :-) I hadn't actually intended to use it "preview" cards. I had been playing that the shuffle took place regardless of whether a support was "found." But I was also confused by the DCC ruling used as an example in the FAQ.

I'm also REALLY happy that we have an answer for both of our questions.

I didn't really care how this was ruled as we've never had any issues using it in our matches. ::: shrug:::

Well, I don't understand the ruling. :-/ The text was pretty clear even if poorly designed.

Why can't we get James to do a concise ruling like this for the "asign damage and partial/infinite soacking" rule, that sets that matter once and for all?

EchPiEl said:

Wasn't this already clearly ruled ? IMO, the problem is that some players don't like the way it was ruled, but that doesn't matter : they may play using house rules if they prefer (and their opponents agree to).

Hang on a minute..... lucarov said:

why didn't you quote the whole post? The first question lucarov asked was, "If the only support found is a Grudge Thrower (which is useless in the Kingdom), do I have to put it into play, or can I reshuffle without playing it?"

and the answer was "You can reshuffle your deck without playing anything."

How is this not settled?

RexGator said:

I think people are assuming too much on the rules of this game. The whole "that's cheating - be a sportsman" argument is at best naive...

Question:

When I play Dwarf cannon crew's forced effect, do I have to show my hand if I don't find (or don't want to play) any support cards?

James' response:

No. The part of the effect that must happen is the searching of the top 5 of your deck.

f7eleven said:

There are tons of unenforceable laws in every country, that doesn't mean they are still laws and breaking them isn't illegal. The card specifically says to put the card into play if able, you are able and are choosing not to, that is breaking the rule of the card. In a tournament situation a smart opponent will call over the TO to check the five cards. In casual play if you have to cheat to win you shouldn't be playing.

jucagaot said:

Actually you do have to shuffle. The first effect resolved, you searched the top 5 cards of your deck. Not finding an eligible support card does not prevent the first effect from resolving as much as possible just like the rules section you quoted says. Since the search resolved then you must shuffle.

Dystopian said:

Just to clarify, the point that I made in this thread is simply that it IS lying, no matter how you justify it, ridicule others about it, or cover it up. If you see a card you can play and claim that you don't - in the rest of the world, we call that a "lie." Now I didn't say you couldn't do that or had to feel guilty about doing so - that's up to you and how you prefer to play your games.

Claiming that other players who would prefer to play honestly, rather than scrabbling for any and all tiny advantages at the cost of a bit of integrity, are being "naive" doesn't really further the debate or prove your point. It's actually fairly insulting and presupposes that everyone else is somehow less informed than you are.

I'm absolutely with you Wytefang.

It might be allowed by the rules but it's simply not appropriate to scrabble for any advantage as wytefang said, imho.

I guess my point is simply that we play games to have fun - the competitive aspect can add to the fun or detract depending on the situation. I think that any decision that caters more to the competitive desire to win at all costs is probably happening at the expense of the "fun" aspect, so to speak.

I have to admit being a bit shocked (but not totally surprised) that people would be so determined to eek out an advantage that they'd resort to prevaricating but then again, people do a lot of crazy stuff to get ahead.