I just had an interesting idea for a game mechanic and while thinking about it i realized it is actually a quite fitting one for Thrawn. Here's the card:

"Each round, at the end of the command phase your opponent must guess the top command dial of each of your ships. Your opponent may then check the top dial of each of your ships. If your opponent guessed correctly, you must discard that command dial, you cannot reveal a command dial with this ship this round. If your opponent guessed wrong, double the effect of that command dial."

In Order to keep in tradition of FFG's excellent card descriptions i also provided the appropriate custum FAQ for this effect of course.
(Seriously, i now understand why we need so many clarifactions via FAQ, you just can't fit everything on that small card)

FAQ: Doubling the effect of a command dial: If a card effect "doubles" the effect of a command dial it changes the command dials effects to the following:

•A Engineering Command Dial provides twice the amount of your printed engineering points

•A Navigation Command Dial allows to increase your yaw value by a maximum of two and allows to change speed by a maximum of two

•A Concentrate Fire Command can add up to two dice to your attack pool of a color/colors that is/are already in your attack pool

•A Squadron Command allows to activate squadrons up to twice your printed squadron value.

The idea behind this mechanic is that it forces you to play in a unorthodox playstyle that your opponent won't anticipate. At the same time, your opponent has to take the fact into consideration that you will probably try to surprise him and therefore won't issue command dials as usual.

Playing a bomber-squadron fleet? Surprise, no squadron commands in round two and three. Enjoy those double CF commands of my carriers. Oh you expected me to plan navigate in round 4? Well here's my squadron command now. Thought i would repair in rounds 5 and 6? Well how about this additional firepower and navigation commands to escape into safety?

I just had to think about Thrawn in Thimothy Zahns Trilogy and how he always seemed to surprise the New Republic with totally unexpected actions and often used conventional tactics as diversions to hide his real masterplan. So i thought this card effect fits just perfectly for him.

What do you guys think about it?

I think this is a terrible idea. Commands are really easy to guess.

1 hour ago, TallGiraffe said:

I think this is a terrible idea. Commands are really easy to guess.

The reason commands are easy to guess is because there’s usually minimal reward for deception, which is the point of the card. One wouldn’t assign commands predictably, which is what most of us do now. As a bonus, Isard becomes genuinely useful (if niche.)

One major problem I have is with squad commands: either it gets doubled and it’s overkill, or your opponent specifically denies you that command (by always guessing squad) because you actually have a substantial squadron investment.

It seems really powerful. I would recommend perhaps treating it as a dial+token instead of double dial. And there are already rules for how to do dial+token, and there are already rules that say cannot have two dials (ironically enough, Thrawn is the only way to get double dials).

I assume youd run a squadronless list with this most of the times. If you have a carrier, opponent just spams squadron command guesses, and its not gonna push squads...

Wouldn’t this allow for those 6 point officers to change the dial afterwards?

so your carrier queues a con fire (why would it?) which of course isn’t guessed, so you double it (gain another?). Then when you activate you change your original dial to a squadron and basically got a Squadron and con fire - so to say the normal thrawn effect just less reliable.

would this work or am I getting something wrong?

it is a nice idea however I think that it doesn’t really have much usefulness

Just guess squadron every time to crack an squadron fleet.

Or guess navigation and lock the entire fleet to its setup speed and default maneuverability.

Why I would ever take this as my commander? It provides an effect to my opponent, not to me.

34 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Just guess squadron every time to crack an squadron fleet.

Or guess navigation and lock the entire fleet to its setup speed and default maneuverability. 

Was thinking exactly this. This idea is broken, in a bad way.

Opponent basically denies your best dial each turn, and this only works IF a doubled alternative dial is better then a single optimal dial.

• Double squad commands sound good; but if you even have 8 squads to activate then your are obviously going squad heavy and the squad dial would be locked down indefinitely
• Double CF isn't particularly good unless on swarms. But Squad commands and Eng commands are poor choices for most small ships, so their CF will too be locked down
• Double Nav isn't much better then Nav and token which is easy enough to replicate. And if you ever drop your ship to speed 1, you may find it crawling for the rest of the game
• Double Eng also sounds good, but is useless for the first 2 rounds or if this ship isn't the focus of assault, and you can bet won't be available if you need it

Don't mind the concept with a lesser effect; like an officer that gives you a matching token if you guess a dial, or demotes a dial to a token from the enemy. With range limitation and exhaust effect.

1 hour ago, Divad said:

Was thinking exactly this. This idea is broken, in a bad way.

Opponent basically denies your best dial each turn, and this only works IF a doubled alternative dial is better then a single optimal dial.

• Double squad commands sound good; but if you even have 8 squads to activate then your are obviously going squad heavy and the squad dial would be locked down indefinitely
• Double CF isn't particularly good unless on swarms. But Squad commands and Eng commands are poor choices for most small ships, so their CF will too be locked down
• Double Nav isn't much better then Nav and token which is easy enough to replicate. And if you ever drop your ship to speed 1, you may find it crawling for the rest of the game
• Double Eng also sounds good, but is useless for the first 2 rounds or if this ship isn't the focus of assault, and you can bet won't be available if you need it

Don't mind the concept with a lesser effect; like an officer that gives you a matching token if you guess a dial, or demotes a dial to a token from the enemy. With range limitation and exhaust effect.

Yes, it is basically ridiculous. Without talking about specific builds it is just as easy as guess nav rounds 1 and 2 (bad engagement conditions); guess squadron, CF or nav rounds 3 and 4 (preventing damage); and guess eng rounds 5 and 6 or maybe nav (preventing any enemy ship from escaping).

19 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

The reason commands are easy to guess is because there’s usually minimal reward for deception, which is the point of the card. One wouldn’t assign commands predictably, which is what most of us do now. As a bonus, Isard becomes genuinely useful (if niche.)

One major problem I have is with squad commands: either it gets doubled and it’s overkill, or your opponent specifically denies you that command (by always guessing squad) because you actually have a substantial squadron investment.

You just described the very problem you were refuting. Commands that matter are generally easy to guess, and any fleet that has a theme/focus makes it even more so. With the described effect even if you guess wrong somehow you get their command information early so it's always a win/win, your opponent is denied a good command, or you get to see his sub-optimal command before any ship activates.

49 minutes ago, Daht said:

You just described the very problem you were refuting. Commands that matter are generally easy to guess, and any fleet that has a theme/focus makes it even more so. With the described effect even if you guess wrong somehow you get their command information early so it's always a win/win, your opponent is denied a good command, or you get to see his sub-optimal command before any ship activates.

Director Isard

47 minutes ago, Daht said:

You just described the very problem you were refuting. Commands that matter are generally easy to guess, and any fleet that has a theme/focus makes it even more so. With the described effect even if you guess wrong somehow you get their command information early so it's always a win/win, your opponent is denied a good command, or you get to see his sub-optimal command before any ship activates.

I see your point, and I don’t think the card is perfect as is. That said, squadron commands are different in my opinion. They’re directly necessary to gain benefit from a substantial point investment. Other commands are a little less cut and dry. Repair and Confire are in many ways interchangeable in certain fleets (even more so in specific matchups) because they translate roughly to “I kill something faster” vs “something kills me slower.” Nav commands are interesting in that they’re nearly always useful, but not always crucial, making them harder to guess. Nav tokens can also be acquired via upgrades to prevent utter nav denial.

9 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

I see your point, and I don’t think the card is perfect as is. That said, squadron commands are different in my opinion. They’re directly necessary to gain benefit from a substantial point investment. Other commands are a little less cut and dry. Repair and Confire are in many ways interchangeable in certain fleets (even more so in specific matchups) because they translate roughly to “I kill something faster” vs “something kills me slower.” Nav commands are interesting in that they’re nearly always useful, but not always crucial, making them harder to guess. Nav tokens can also be acquired via upgrades to prevent utter nav denial.

Round 1 I guess nav... neither nav dial nor token for your ships... round 2 I guess nav... neither nav dial nor token for your ships... etc. Ozzel and Madine nerfed right from the start and everyone else better win without resolving a single nav command.

I mean, I like the idea... it help double dictors with g7 really.

Do you want to trigger boarding troopers or (let's imagine) RLB? No way! Neither ETs or whatever it required a command resolution.

I mean, I, maybe, would talk about this option IF it didn't prevent you from revealing the next dial. But as right now, the only way to resolve a decent command would be through command tokens and even them must be assigned through Sovereign, Hondo, Ashoka, veteran officers and Garm Bel (maybe something else) as flotillas will be prevented to get the dial in order to tokenize it and pass around.

Had you considered reversing the effect? Make it so that Thrawn guesses his opponent’s commands (with several changes to keep it from being OP and locking out squadron play). This will force your opponent to take an unconventional approach and makes Thrawn more offensive in nature. I also feel like that would be more in keeping with his bio.

57 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Round 1 I guess nav... neither nav dial nor token for your ships... round 2 I guess nav... neither nav dial nor token for your ships... etc. Ozzel and Madine nerfed right from the start and everyone else better win without resolving a single nav command.

I mean, I like the idea... it help double dictors with g7 really.

Do you want to trigger boarding troopers or (let's imagine) RLB? No way! Neither ETs or whatever it required a command resolution.

I mean, I, maybe, would talk about this option IF it didn't prevent you from revealing the next dial. But as right now, the only way to resolve a decent command would be through command tokens and even them must be assigned through Sovereign, Hondo, Ashoka, veteran officers and Garm Bel (maybe something else) as flotillas will be prevented to get the dial in order to tokenize it and pass around.

And these are all challenges/things you wouldn’t include in such a fleet (especially Ozzel, because the admiral’s seat is taken.) It’s you who has to win without reliable nav commands. Wanna trigger BTs and get a nav token? Bring Hondo in your Thrawn fleet. I think you’re describing it in reverse, like @Parkdaddy is suggesting.

On another note, “double or nothing” seems harsh. What about “double or token?”

3 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

On another note, “double or nothing” seems harsh. What about “double or token?”

That is exactly along the lines of what I was thinking. They can only take a token if you guess right, and if you guess wrong, they get to use the command as if they had spent a token.

I would also change the timing to be at the beginning of the ship phase (this way Command 1 ships are still affected), and I would limit it to 3 rounds, probably 2-4.

1 minute ago, The Jabbawookie said:

And these are all challenges/things you wouldn’t include in such a fleet (especially Ozzel, because the admiral’s seat is taken.) It’s you who has to win without reliable nav commands. Wanna trigger BTs and get a nav token? Bring Hondo in your Thrawn fleet. I think you’re describing it in reverse, like @Parkdaddy is suggesting.

On another note, “double or nothing” seems harsh. What about “double or token?”

I missed for a moment it was the commander. So no problems with Ozzel or Madine. My fault. But the rest keeps the same. Taking this Thrawn version you are just giving up any navigation which is another way to say you are giving up good shots, escape ways. No squadrons commands if your fleet is squadron oriented. Again it seems a really good effect for your opponent to have. The commander just read: "your opponent must choose a command each round. You cannot resolve it until the end of the round" in practice. There is the "you may double the effects of every other command" of course but any other command become so powerful for being "doubled" but squadron and that one is really easy to guess, it is not like your squadrons were invisible.

5 minutes ago, Parkdaddy said:

That is exactly along the lines of what I was thinking. They can only take a token if you guess right, and if you guess wrong, they get to use the command as if they had spent a token.

I would also change the timing to be at the beginning of the ship phase (this way Command 1 ships are still affected), and I would limit it to 3 rounds, probably 2-4.

Could your Thrawn guess commands for each ship or for the fleet?

The whole point of this card was that there is really no tactical thinking requied for planning commands, because usually its a no brainer which ones to use. Sure your opponent can block you one command completely, but then you can just benefit fromt Thrawn unhindered by planning other commands. The WHOLE POINT was that you CANT build a usual "spezialize in one specific tactic"-Fleet with Thrawn. I think its more rewarding for the enemy to try and actually guess the command you are going to use instead of just blocking one specific command all the time. Because if you build your fleet correctly you can just switch to a different tactic and benefit.

The effect is so strong because it has to be when you are forced to play a unorthodox playstyle. You cant just spam Squadron commands all the time anymore. Is that a bad thing? I dont think so. Gives squadron commands a actual tactical value now instead of them beeing the default command for each fleet with squadrons.

I will playtest this Thrawn and see how it goes, feel free to try it yourself.

On 7/8/2018 at 2:57 AM, TallGiraffe said:

I think this is a terrible idea. Commands are really easy to guess.

Thats the whole point why i designed this card. It makes decisions more difficult and more rewarding if you manage to surprise your opponent.

13 hours ago, Daht said:

You just described the very problem you were refuting. Commands that matter are generally easy to guess, and any fleet that has a theme/focus makes it even more so. With the described effect even if you guess wrong somehow you get their command information early so it's always a win/win, your opponent is denied a good command, or you get to see his sub-optimal command before any ship activates.

But then again, when has knowing your opponents command ever significantly influenced the game to your advantage? Just take a look how often Isard is used...

And i think you didnt understand the purpose of the card either. The fact that commands that matter are easy to guess is the reason why Thrawns effect has to be so strong, so that you still get a signififcant advantage by not using the "default" commands at the "default"time.

Thrawns purpose is to force you to use other commands than the no-brainer ones and get rewarded for it. Your opponemt on the other hand knows your are not going to use the default commands as usual because otherwise he can block them simply by having some experience how this particular fleet type works.

Your opponent will have to try to find out wether your are going the default command route and hoping that your opponent will expect you not to do or whether your will go the unconventional route. So it becomes a mindgame.

1 minute ago, >kkj said:

Thats the whole point why i designed this card. It makes decisions more difficult and more rewarding if you manage to surprise your opponent.

Surprise, with the only purpose of surprising is not a good tactic.

I understand what you want. I just don't see the way you try it playable at all.

When you put your fleet on the table you're telling your opponent likely commands. When you deploy you also do it. When each round starts, your opponent has also an idea about what is going on. I would happily prevent you from navigating or commanding squadrons the whole game even if that means that one of your ships will roll two more dice from his rear arc...

It doesn't work for specialized fleets but for multirole fleets it is also nerfing 1/x as best. I mean, not every ship will take the most benefit from every command at every round. It could work if you have a Quasar with a deadly alpha onto one hip, a raider with ER at short range of other ship, a Vic1 ready to block a path and your flagship engineering hard to save itself. It makes things really hard for your opponent cause all are bad decissions but even then, he has actually the option to screw one of them. Now try to setup that kind of round perfectly when your opponent control your navigation since the beginning. If you cannot you will find your opponent prevent squadron one round, cf the next one, navigation the other and egineering the last. It will end with your opponent preventing your ships to do what you need when you need.

It would be a little different if he must guess for each ship. Then it would be easier to surprise when you command squadrons from the Glad while cf with the quasar cause he guessed squadrons for the quasar and cf for the glad. But even then, it just start a bluff game thet even being funny it will make the command phase slower.

5 minutes ago, >kkj said:

But then again, when has knowing your opponents command ever significantly influenced the game to your advantage? Just take a look how often Isard is used...

And think you didnt understand the purpose of the card either. The fact that commands that matter are easy to guess is the reason why Thrawns effect has to be so strong, so that you still get a signififcant advantage by not using the " optimal " commands at the " optimal "time.

FTFY

He must guess for each ship.

On 7/8/2018 at 2:25 AM, >kkj said:

Each round, at the end of the command phase your opponent must guess the top command dial of each of your ships. Your opponent may then check the top dial of each of your ships. If your opponent guessed correctly      , you must discard that command dial, you cannot reveal a command dial with this ship this round. If your opponent guessed wrong, double the effect of that command  dial  .     "

Maybe i have to word it:

"Each round, at the end of the command phase your opponent must guess the top command dial S of each of your ships."

It was intended that your opponent has to guess the dial for each ship individually.