On 7/7/2018 at 3:06 AM, Larky Bobble said:

I was watching the SnV unboxing and I noticed that a lot of the ship title cards remove slots, whilst adding others.

For us 1.0 peeps, no probs. But what about dad and son, who investat a generic store, having seen the boxes. They get home and see cards that tell them to remove slots, and son says "what slots dad?", so dad replies.... "Errrmmmm.....".

I really don't get how FFG can create upgrade cards that talk about the ships slots, without having put those slots anywhere apart from the internet!

It really feels wrong. Points online I can understand, but all cards published should be understandable from the get go.

2.0 is a mess from the start. No points and slots on cards is an insult. Pilots ditched, cards nerfed left and right and changes to the rules which are not only unnecessary, but drain the fun from the game. Oh, and you have to pay 100's of $ to keep playing with things you already own... just because tournament players thought the game was broken by meta madness (which will simply happen all over again for them BTW).. Get out now, come back for 3.0 in a couple of years when another cash grab is needed by FFG.

7 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

As a father, I have to say that the obligatory access, even just for downloading stat sheets, really turns me off of 2.0.

Surely if you can post on these forums to complain about having to download a pdf, you can download a pdf?

37 minutes ago, madquest8 said:

2.0 is a mess from the start. No points and slots on cards is an insult. Pilots ditched, cards nerfed left and right and changes to the rules which are not only unnecessary, but drain the fun from the game. Oh, and you have to pay 100's of $ to keep playing with things you already own... just because tournament players thought the game was broken by meta madness (which will simply happen all over again for them BTW).. Get out now, come back for 3.0 in a couple of years when another cash grab is needed by FFG.

Ignorance is bliss. So much is wrong with this post I don't even know where to begin and where to end. I will say that, if 1.0 is the bee's knees, keep playing it, no one is stopping you, especially if you aren't in a competitive scene. I will leave it at that.

I second the motion that you can take the time to post online, you can take the time to print a PDF, and even make cards with slots/values on them once we know what is what. Otherwise you are complaining to complain. I'm sorry that a option doesn't fit you perfectly while it does for the majority of the player base.

8 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

As a father, I have to say that the obligatory access, even just for downloading stat sheets, really turns me off of 2.0. The evidence of the effects of excessive online access is accumulating. I expect it to hit tobacco levels of disgust in a decade as the addicts wean themselves off.. Note Apple's recent PR ploy to reassure parents like me that they are aware of the problem. Anyone that expects their child to take the hard route via paper is kidding themselves. The appmis obligatory for all. My family only squad builds with cards.

I would really like to get into 2.0. It looks great, from a general play perspective. But this Autumn, GW will be getting my money. I want to buy a full product that is fully referencable within itself, and I'd rather get new stuff.

Next year, if anyone in my area really gets into 2.0 I'll probably get the conversion packs. But I really hope this fails as a wargaming precedent.

I'm hesitant to tell people how to bring up their kids but I'm not sure you're actually understanding what the problem with excessive online access is. Unlike cigarettes, which are by their very nature unhealthy, just being online is not harmful in itself. It's the things kids do, and the things they're not doing while online, that can be problematic. As such, simply using the app for squad building isn't a problem.

1 hour ago, madquest8 said:

2.0 is a mess from the start. No points and slots on cards is an insult. Pilots ditched, cards nerfed left and right and changes to the rules which are not only unnecessary, but drain the fun from the game. Oh, and you have to pay 100's of $ to keep playing with things you already own... just because tournament players thought the game was broken by meta madness (which will simply happen all over again for them BTW).. Get out now, come back for 3.0 in a couple of years when another cash grab is needed by FFG.

However, I have no problem calling this post a gross overreaction. I can understand not agreeing with the direction of the game, but calling it an insult is just weird.

4 hours ago, Icelom said:

Don't quote me out of context @Darth Meanie My post literally described several ways to stop that as a parent...

My point was that even once is once. There are nights I won't turn on my computer because I don't want to go down that rabbit hole.

I do find it hilarious that one of the big negatives in 1.0 was a 24-page FAQ that mean the cards were all wrong. Now, the cards are just plain incomplete and a PDF is a permanent feature and (most) everyone is completely OK with this.

If they had just printed complete cards and then used the app as the FAQ, no one would be unhappy at the moment.

54 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

If they had just printed complete cards and then used the app as the FAQ, no one would be unhappy at the moment.

Lol, have you ever used the Internet? Someone is unhappy 100% of the time.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

I do find it hilarious that one of the big negatives in 1.0 was a 24-page FAQ that mean the cards were all wrong. Now, the cards are just plain incomplete and a PDF is a permanent feature and (most) everyone is completely OK with this.

The cards aren't incomplete, the nature of them has just been changed. A PDF also isn't a permanent feature since most people are likely to be using the app/website for squad building. I guess it's easy to find fault with something if you completely misrepresent the nature of it.

I think we need a 2nd Edition for these forums. Jebus Cripes people...

On 7/6/2018 at 10:11 PM, Ixidor said:

I don't think this is as big of a deal as people are making it out to be. One of the first things that should be in every box is the sheet that says "hey guess what, there's an app and a website and other ways to get this other info, go get it!"

"In the box"? I'm expecting it to be very prominent on the box, like it is for Mansions of Madness second edition. "Requires free app to play," or something like that.

12 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

Anyone that expects their child to take the hard route via paper is kidding themselves.

Couldn't you, as the parent, print out the pdf and insist they use that? Then give them a choice between using the printout, using the squad cards, or not playing. If you don't like the app, fine, but it's not the insurmountable barrier that you're making it out to be.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

If they had just printed complete cards and then used the app as the FAQ, no one would be unhappy at the moment.

Somehow, I think making an entirely new edition of the game without really changing anything substantial would make more people unhappy, but maybe that's just me.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I do find it hilarious that one of the big negatives in 1.0 was a 24-page FAQ that mean the cards were all wrong. Now, the cards are just plain incomplete and a PDF is a permanent feature and (most) everyone is completely OK with this.

Now the cards are complete in their more limited purpose and I get to do squad building in an FFG app rather than one from someone else.

If someone does not have a smartphone, then yes this is a PitA, but otherwise it seems to me that everyone calculates with lists with an app now anyway.

4 hours ago, Jike said:

I'm hesitant to tell people how to bring up their kids but I'm not sure you're actually understanding what the problem with excessive online access is. Unlike cigarettes, which are by their very nature unhealthy, just being online is not harmful in itself. It's the things kids do, and the things they're not doing while online, that can be problematic. As such, simply using the app for squad building isn't a problem. 

Obviously, you are the one missing the point!

All time turned toward a screen are moments where one invites in the darkness of Satan. First he used D&D to corrupt us, now the vile Interwebs: https://www.chick.com/m/reading/tracts/readtract.asp?stk=0046

10 minutes ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

Obviously, you are the one missing the point!

All time turned toward a screen are moments where one invites in the darkness of Satan. First he used D&D to corrupt us, now the vile Interwebs: https://www.chick.com/m/reading/tracts/readtract.asp?stk=0046

In that case I'm going straight to **** ?

Quote

I’ve always thought “screen time” was a silly idea. I think it’s important to consider what’s on the screen. Maybe it made more sense back when screen time just meant television. The idea that sitting and watching Spongebob should be tossed into the same bucket as playing ABC Mouse is absolutely insane. I won’t let my four year old watch cartoons all afternoon but if he wants the iPad he is welcome to it. That’s because if he is using the iPad he is coloring and doing puzzles. Nine year old wants to lay on the couch and watch Ninjago all afternoon. Not happening. Want to play Minecraft with your friends all afternoon? Yes! I say that because I’ve gone into their Minecraft Realm. I’ve seen the hotel these kids built. I’ve played with the redstone machines they have designed. I’ve played games my kid built in Project Spark on the Xbox and Hopscotch on the iPad. That’s technically “screen time”, but those are experiences I will never put a limit on.

2 hours ago, Jike said:

The cards aren't incomplete, the nature of them has just been changed. A PDF also isn't a permanent feature since most people are likely to be using the app/website for squad building. I guess it's easy to find fault with something if you completely misrepresent the nature of it.

This car isn't incomplete, only the nature of it has changed. All you need to do is download the free tow truck app and you can go anywhere you want.

17 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

Unfortunately, this misses the point of physical activity, building coordination in more than your thumb, and actual face-to-face social interaction.

6 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

This car isn't incomplete, only the nature of it has changed. All you need to do is download the free tow truck app and you can go anywhere you want.

Actually, if it were very likely that you were going to completely change the tires, in the same way that X-Wing is very likely to change points (and at least somewhat likely to change some upgrades), then having the vehicle separate from the tires would make sense. Just put the tires on once you're ready to use it and know what's applicable.

Or, you could just download the tires once, and not worry about what changes may be made to them, if it really bugs you that much.

5 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Actually, if it were very likely that you were going to completely change the tires, in the same way that X-Wing is very likely to change points (and at least somewhat likely to change some upgrades), then having the vehicle separate from the tires would make sense. Just put the tires on once you're ready to use it and know what's applicable.

Or, you could just download the tires once, and not worry about what changes may be made to them, if it really bugs you that much.

*sigh*

JJ = 1.

DM = 0.

(OTOH, this doesn't refute the notion that the car is incomplete without tires. There's just a reason for it.)

31 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

This car isn't incomplete, only the nature of it has changed. All you need to do is download the free tow truck app and you can go anywhere you want.

If you really can't tell the difference between shifting one of the functions of the cards to a free app that provides a bunch of useful benefits and a car that is literally unusable then I'm really not sure there's any point in having any sort of discussion. I'll just chalk this one up to another ridiculous overreaction to the edition change.

Clearly, this vehical is incomplete without wheels and will never go anywhere. Never mind the existance of magnets.

36 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Clearly, this vehical is incomplete without wheels and will never go anywhere. Never mind the existance of magnets.

Oh look, and here's a game you can play without cards:

Ignoring the basis of the argument doesn't mean you win.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

This car isn't incomplete, only the nature of it has changed. All you need to do is download the free tow truck app and you can go anywhere you want.

The game, as open from the box (with two exceptions) is complete.
The second edition of X-wing is designed from the beginning to support arbitrary game formats, besides the 200/6 competitive format.
For example, let's imagine that one of those formats is a 2.0 HotAC game mode, where ships have a variable price, and a much different set of upgrade slots. While in 1.0 the printed cards contradicted the HotAC rules, in 2.0, it doesn't since the price and the set upgrades of a ship is something bound to the game mode and not to the ship itself.

My point is that when you open the 2.0 Core Set, you have a set of game pieces that are totally usable from the get go. For example, in the Threat game format, Luke Skywalker has the upgrades listed on the Threat cards. Pilots and upgrades have no point cost because point costs don't exist in the Threat format.
If tomorrow a 2.0 HotAC is released, then they will list there how many initial XP an X-wing costs, and which are the upgrade slots it has.

What you are complaining about is that the 2.0 printed cards do not support the official Tournament 200/6 game format with ink.
That is true. But because 2.0 cards do not explicitly support any particular game format with ink. Instead, each game format provides its costs and slots in their own means (an app/web/pdf in case of FFG's Organized Play, a PDF in the case of 2.0 HotAC, and a set of printed Threat cards in FFG's Threat game format).

Now, the original poster complains that his kids ask him what upgrade slots have the cards when the cards have none printed.
Instead of him acquiring fatherhood insecurity and relief his failure as a strong paternal figure on the forums, complaining that because of FFG's devilish incompetence, his kids have seen him weak and vulnerable... or whatever has led him to pour that amount of frustration here...
...he could instead have read the rules and said
"No, my dear offspring. This is a brave new game with brave new rules. This Threat cards list the valid combinations of pilots and cards you can equip with the core set for playing home. We can play together with these cards without having to resort to those venomous electronic artifacts that poison the youth's mind.
Once you have proved your worth to your father, I will consider printing the tournament mode document where point costs and upgrade slots are listed, so that you can create your own tournament squadrons and go and compete to the geek store, where you will make your father proud, or ultimately disappoint him forever."

21 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Ever see the Striker bomb something?

Me neither.

Ever seen a U-wing fire torpedoes? No, me neither.

STOP WITH THIS STUPID BS. IT DOESN'T MATTER.

18 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

As a father, I have to say that the obligatory access, even just for downloading stat sheets, really turns me off of 2.0. The evidence of the effects of excessive online access is accumulating. I expect it to hit tobacco levels of disgust in a decade as the addicts wean themselves off.. Note Apple's recent PR ploy to reassure parents like me that they are aware of the problem. Anyone that expects their child to take the hard route via paper is kidding themselves. The appmis obligatory for all. My family only squad builds with cards.

Remember when that pesky new invention called Radio came in? People said LITERALLY the same thing. Also with TV. But, get this, also with books

So, how does it feel to be old? History won't be on your side on this one, thought you might wanna know.

For me, this is all down to the issue of playtesting, strangely.

They had the rules, ships and upgrades theorised. They then projected a timeframe for testing ALL the combos and thought "Ahhh". And then they had the genius idea to announce the release of the game, pre-testing, knowing that they could test the game whilst it was being printed. If any ships had too many slots, not a problem, we never printed it! Aha! Same for points. It then also fits a future sales model of undercosting future ships and being able to correct them after the sales drop.

All cool. But anything that forces me online is going to turn me off. I love the GW books, btw to those who decry them, as I can read stories, then the stats, then the points, by simply flicking backwards and forwards a few pages. The art is stunning, the layout great, and I am happy to pay them to produce that quality. There may be erratas, but in my environment we don´t care, we have everything we need to play. I can add in my head, for those that need electonical aid.

To that end, I would propose to FFG that they could include one sheet in the ship boxes that gives a "casual" points rating to each pilot and upgrade included in the box, along with possible upgrades availble to the ship (E.g Luke - 70pts T A M M ). But with the caveat that points and upgrades for tournaments have to be colated online as there they are tweaked for optimal fairness. I would imagine that they didn´ t/won´ t due any combination of :

A) The playtesting argument, as given above. The points/slots could be way off...

B) Confusion over formats. You are going to be given the instaship builds and the Escalation formats as well as being told to go online for offical points and slots. Would a sheet of points confuse people as to the format they should choose? Maybe...

C) They are tight.

Either way, that SnV unboxing turned me right off investing in 2.0. Seeing the Scyk saying to add one SWeapon slot, when there are no slots on any ships´ cards ,is just bad design. Really bad. That ships ability should be in the app. (And it should say "if you didn´ t equip a ´ secondary weapon´ get Light Scyk upgrades" so that the cannon, torp and missile choice can be handled in the app.)

But anyway, most here love it, so enjoy. I´ll be daydreaming with books, and/or cards piled around me, for the games that let me do so....

4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

This car isn't incomplete, only the nature of it has changed. All you need to do is download the free tow truck app and you can go anywhere you want.

Unfortunately, this misses the point of physical activity, building coordination in more than your thumb, and actual face-to-face social interaction.

Let alone the necessity of boredom in children´ s lives. They need to be able to (or even to have be able to) find or create their own entertainment. Otherwise their ability for creative thought, along with the other aspects mentionted, will be stunted for life.

On 7/7/2018 at 2:32 PM, Larky Bobble said:

As a parent of an eight year old, I have to say that I control my child's screen time. I have no issue with her perusing magic cards for as long as she wishes though. This directly forces you online, and your child with you.

I have banned my children (and myself) from ALL games that include gambling mechanics for acquiring the game components. I strongly feel games that include loot boxes such as Magic are harmful to children as its exposing them to gambling. Gambling is highly addictive in adults let alone children. There are ample amounts of studies to defend the position that gambling is detrimental to the development of children.

As a father, I must not be hypocritical and so I stopped playing some of my favourite games like CS: Go and Dota 2. We also do not play SW Destiny for the same reason. I am very careful now of which games we are allowed to play. For instance, Star Realms is a very fun deck building card game without loot box gambling mechanics. So we play that. Obviously, x-wing is our favourite miniatures game so are very happy and excited for 2.0!

19 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

The evidence of the effects of excessive online access is accumulating. I expect it to hit tobacco levels of disgust in a decade as the addicts wean themselves off...

I think gambling is a much greater risk to my own children as gambling consumes their thoughts when they are away from the game. Smashers seems to be the current craze at primary schools in my country. My children talked about them for about a week or so asking for them. We went to our dept store as we were going to buy them since their friends at school were playing. Well, it turned out to be a blind box toy/game (loot box). So I had to tell my children that they were not allowed as its a form of gambling. They really wanted these toys and I assume their friends were talking about getting rares. I also think the toy/game would not be nearly as addictive if the game just sold the components outright instead of hiding behind a loot box. Have you researched loot boxes and other gambling mechanics? I found this article an interesting read.

Plan

What is my plan for x-wing 2.0 and my children's exposure to screens? Its very simple. I have old mobile phones that I will lock down. The only app that will be installed is the FFG x-wing 2.0 app. I will only allow them access to the phone when they are building their x-wing 2.0 lists. It will be limited and will be supervised. I have already gone through the issues of just letting them have access to tablets, phones, and even their Nintendo Switch (which they are currently banned from using due to their behaviour). Its my experience that my children do better when they are not using electronic components; however, I think restricting them to the x-wing 2.0 app and only the app to build lists is ok for them.