Lightsaber Duel Rules

By edwardavern, in Star Wars: Edge of the Empire RPG

Hi all

I've been devising some house rules for running a lightsaber duel. I have a character who is going to take the Jedi Trials (Republic setting), and wanted to include something cinematic for him. We're running it as a solo session, and these rules have been designed with that in mind - they are not intended to operate during a normal session.

I'm posting them here in the Edge of the Empire forums because these get a lot more traffic than the Force and Destiny ones. I'd love to get some feedback on these, if people have some time.

Quote

Set up

Before the duel starts, decide how many sub-encounters it will consist of. A classic, engaging duel – like Luke vs Darth Vader in The Empire Strikes Back , or Obi-Wan vs Anakin in Revenge of the Sith – is not static, but consists of several stages, each imposing new challenges on the duellists. For SWRPG purposes, 3 sub-encounters is a good rule of thumb.

After this decision has been made, separate out a number of Destiny Points equal to the combined value of the duellists’ Wound Thresholds divided by the number of sub-encounters in the duel , rounding up. So, if one of the duellists has a Wound Threshold of 11, and the other has a Wound Threshold of 14, divide the combined total of 25 by the number of sub-encounters. If there are 3 sub-encounters, that would therefore give 9 Destiny Points.

Turn half of these Destiny Points so that they are Light Side up, and half so that they are Dark Side up. If there are an odd number, flip the final Destiny Point to randomly determine how it falls. So, continuing the previous example, 4 Destiny Points would be Light Side, 4 Destiny Points would be Dark Side, and the final one would be randomly determined – let’s say it came down Dark Side.

These Destiny Points are not used as normal Destiny Points, but rather will be used to determine who is winning the duel, and who is losing it.

Sub-Encounters

After the set up is completed, the duel can begin. At the beginning of each sub-encounter, the duellists should roll for initiative. Initiative is much more important in duels than in normal combat – it dictates not only who goes first, but also who controls the flow of the duel. However, the duellists can choose to use alternative skills, rather than just the standard Vigilance / Cool , depending on the scenario – for example, in certain sections of the Obi-Wan vs. Anakin duel, you could argue that Coordination or Athletics are much more important in determining who has the initiative (“I have the high ground”); in a very dark environment, Perception might be appropriate.

The GM should then declare how many rounds the sub-encounter will contain. 4 rounds per sub-encounter is a good rule of thumb.

At the beginning of each round, the GM describes the scenario. The leading duellist (i.e. the duellist who won initiative for that sub-encounter) may then declare their action. This must be possible in the environment, and relevant to the duel, but otherwise there are very few restrictions – the duellist can choose to use almost any skill, not just a combat skill. Social skills like Charm or Coercion can be used to try to put off the opposing duellist, physical skills like Coordination or Athletics can be used to try to gain the upper hand, Knowledge or Perception can be used to make use of key information, and so on. The duellist should also declare any manoeuvres they are making, and resolve strain accordingly.

Before their check is rolled, however, the following duellist (i.e. the duellist who lost initiative for that sub-encounter) declares their action. This must be an appropriate response to the action of the leading duellist . For example, if the leading duellist used a combat skill to attack, the following duellist should respond with either a counter-attack, or an attempt to get out of the way or block the attack; if the leading duellist used a social skill, the following duellist should respond with a social skill of their own, or perhaps a Cool or Discipline check to resist, and so on. The duellist should also declare any manoeuvres they are making, and resolve strain accordingly.

The duellists then assemble their dice pools and roll the checks at the same time in a Competitive check. The difficulty may differ between each pool, depending on the acts attempted. However, where possible the GM should allow the bonuses and penalties of modifiers, such as talents and gear, to come into play. So, for example, of one duellist is making a Melee check and the other duellist has the “Dodge” talent, that should be allowed to affect the pool; similarly, a character with the “Intimidating” talent should be allowed to downgrade the difficulty of Coercion checks, and upgrade the difficulty of their opponent’s Coercion checks, etc.

( Note: Where possible, duellists should be encouraged to use a variety of skills throughout the encounter. A suitable dynamic environment will encourage this. However, particularly with a combat-focused leading duellist, it is inevitable that combat skills will be the norm. This isn’t inherently a problem, but where possible the narrative surrounding the action should be kept interesting. However, irrespective of what the skills are, it is assumed narratively that the duellists are fighting more or less continuously throughout the encounter, as is generally seen to be the case in the movies. )

In the case of using Force Powers, these should be rolled as Combined Force Power Checks , normally with Discipline as the skill of choice. In this case, the Discipline check is used to determine whether the duellist wins the Competitive check, while the Force Dice are used to determine the effects of the check. Dark Side pips should provide Strain and Conflict as normal, but should not flip Destiny Points. (Note, however, that in this case and in the case of combat attacks, no Wounds or Strain are inflicted on the opponent from a successful check. So the base effects of things like “Harm” or “Unleash” should be more narrative than mechanical. The effects of things like “Bind”, however, can still come into play.)

Once both players have rolled, determine who has won the Competitive check. The winner may flip a Destiny Point in the pool.

At the end of the round, the GM should alter something in the environment. This shouldn’t be a major change, but should be enough that the duellists have something new to consider. If the environment is dynamic enough already, this should be relatively easy to do. Examples might include slowly rising water levels, increased crossfire from external combatants, flames spreading through a forest, additional objects falling from overhead, etc.

Advantage & Threat

Any advantage, threat , triumph and despair generated during the checks can be spent as normal, at the GM’s discretion. This includes activating item qualities, if appropriate, or applying upgrades, boost or setback . Some measure of interpretation is required from the GM – for example, if a duellist unexpectedly deploys a grenade during a duel, then using advantage to activate blast would not make sense with the rules for damage in duels. However, that could easily be translated into setback on the opponent’s check. In addition, Critical Injuries can be inflicted by advantage or triumph on combat checks, as per normal.

Encounter End

When all rounds in the sub-encounter are completed, the duellists take damage. Each duellist suffers damage equal to the number of opposing Destiny Points . Soak is taken into consideration, but the damage is assumed to be done the opposing duellist’s weapon – so if the duel is with lightsabers, for example, their Breach 1 quality means that Soak is mitigated.

The sub-encounter now ends, and a new one begins. Mechanically, this counts as the end of an encounter – any effects that last “for the remainder of the encounter” are removed, and any abilities that can be used “once per encounter” are re-set. In addition, the duellists can each roll Discipline or Cool to recover strain.

The GM should at this point dramatically change the environment. Examples might include artificial gravity being switched off, a platform suddenly falling into lava, a massive explosion blowing the duellists into a different space, or the duel suddenly being plunged into pitch darkness. Again, if the scenario is dynamic enough, there should be plenty of opportunities for this to happen. Forcing the duellists to a different range band is an especially effective way of making them consider different actions than they might ordinarily take.

The Destiny Points should also be re-set at this point , so that there is a 50:50 split (flipping the odd Point if needed). Remember to re-roll for Initiative between each sub-encounter as well, as described above.

End of Duel

The duel ends when one of the following things is true:

· Flight: The duel ends if one of the duellists flees. In this case, the duel is over and another encounter (likely a chase encounter) begins. However, cinematic duels rarely end this way, and the GM should avoid having an NPC that is likely to turn tail and run during a duel.

· Victory: The duel ends if one of the duellists exceeds their Wound or Strain Threshold. At this point they are considered incapacitated, and suffer a Critical Injury, as normal. In addition, their opponent now has them at their mercy, and may act accordingly. Including, but not limited to, killing the loser. It is possible that this will occur before the final sub-encounter, although if the duellists are well-matched this is unlikely. ( Note: if both the duellists exceed their Wound or Strain Threshold during the same encounter, the GM should compare their relative values to determine the victor – however, both should suffer Critical Injuries. )

· Sudden Death: The duel ends if the pre-determined number of sub-encounters is reached. This is unlikely to happen before one of the duellists exceeds their Wound or Strain Threshold, but it is possible, especially in a well-matched, non-lightsaber duel where one or both characters has a high soak. If this happens, the duel goes to Sudden Death: a single Competitive check using any skill, subject to the GM’s approval. The loser of this check instantly exceeds their Wound Threshold; see the rules for Victory , above.

3 hours ago, edwardavern said:

Hi all

I've been devising some house rules for running a lightsaber duel. I have a character who is going to take the Jedi Trials (Republic setting), and wanted to include something cinematic for him. We're running it as a solo session, and these rules have been designed with that in mind - they are not intended to operate during a normal session.

I'm posting them here in the Edge of the Empire forums because these get a lot more traffic than the Force and Destiny ones. I'd love to get some feedback on these, if people have some time.

Interesting set of house rules there. However, If you check out Disciples of Harmony , Page 76 already has rules for lightsaber sparring as part of Jedi training.

Edited by Tramp Graphics
3 hours ago, edwardavern said:

In addition, the duellists can each roll Discipline or Cool to recover strain.

What if a duelist is trying to win by pushing their opponent beyond their Strain Threshold? I feel like this rule makes inflicting strain on each other trivial and pales in comparison to inflicting wounds.

Edited by panpolyqueergeek
On 7/6/2018 at 8:20 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Interesting set of house rules there. However, If you check out Disciples of Harmony , Page 76 already has rules for lightsaber sparring as part of Jedi training.

I don't have Disciplines, sadly. Although I was looking for something a little more in depth than sparring, TBH.

On 7/6/2018 at 8:34 PM, panpolyqueergeek said:

What if a duelist is trying to win by pushing their opponent beyond their Strain Threshold? I feel like this rule makes inflicting strain on each other trivial and pales in comparison to inflicting wounds.

Hmm, good point. I mean, this was definitely designed with wounds in mind, but I'd like it to be portable to a strain-inflicting scenario. Will consider. Thanks.

3 hours ago, edwardavern said:

I don't have Disciplines, sadly. Although I was looking for something a little more in depth than sparring, TBH.

Hmm, good point. I mean, this was definitely designed with wounds in mind, but I'd like it to be portable to a strain-inflicting scenario. Will consider. Thanks.

The DoH sparring rules are pretty simple and straight forward.

Quote

As a critical component of training, students might spar with their mentor, another student, or even duelist droids. Most sessions feature training lightsabers to avoid accidents. Sparring typically goes for three rounds but ends immediately if either duelist suffers a Critical Injury result of 100+ or is disabled. Otherwise, whichever duelist suffered fewer hits-or if that is tied, fewer wounds-is declared the winner. Mentors might blindfold students, imposing 3 Setbacks on all checks unless a successful Sense power check is made to detect their surroundings.

( Disciples of Harmony page 76)

Thanks @Tramp Graphics . That probably looks a bit simple for what I'm after, TBH, but good to know.

9 hours ago, edwardavern said:

Thanks @Tramp Graphics . That probably looks a bit simple for what I'm after, TBH, but good to know.

Well, the only other option for one-on-one duels is the Fated Duel Signature Ability from the Guardian career found in Keeping the Peace . That is designed for a Guardian to take on a personal nemesis in one-on-one combat ala Obi-Wan vs Vader.

Edited by Tramp Graphics
13 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Well, the only other option for one-on-one duels is the Fated Duel Signature Ability from the Guardian career found in Keeping the Peace . That is designed for a Guardian to take on a personal nemesis in one-on-one combat ala Obi-Wan vs Vader.

Sure. Which is why I was writing some house-rules...

Just MHO...it all feels more complicated than necessary. It seems to me the heart of the issue is the bypass-soak-instakill problem that lightsabers have in this game, it makes a classic drawn out duel a little difficult to marry with the mechanic. I think there are ways though to make the existing mechanics work.

First, if you don't have Parry, you shouldn't be duelling. If you wanted to make a duel last longer, you could temporarily raise the amount that Parry soaks up (eg: 2 * ranks + X), but it's probably not necessary. If the PC can't get Parry because of the "It's not Genesys" straightjacket, grant a rank just for the purpose of the duel (and bump up any ranks for other PCs).

I do like the idea of breaking up the encounter into phases/sub-encounters, but the simplest mechanic here would just be to let the Wound Threshold refresh for each phase. Whoever incapacitates the other in a phase will still be dealing a crit, and they'll get the opportunity to monologue and gloat a bit :) If you want each phase to last longer, you can also temporarily double the WT (something I do anyway because I don't use stimpacks). If you want the crits to be less lethal, subtract 20 until the final phase. Having a separate DP pool for the duelists (very small, 2-3 max) and resetting it at the end of a phase might also be a good idea.

Finally, I would worry less about the mechanics of who is the lead-duelist and all the call/response stuff. (Though you might want to look at the duelling rules in...Fly Casual, I think?) Instead, each phase should have a point (get out of the hangar, prevent the opponent from making it to a speeder, etc) and treat it more like a chase. That way the players (and you) have the freedom to adapt to whatever comes up rather than trying to slot activities into a limited set of skill checks.

11 hours ago, edwardavern said:

Sure. Which is why I was writing some house-rules...

Well, the thing is that, by RAW, the only way to ensure a one-on-one duel with no interference by outside forces (on either side) is through the Fated Duel signature ability, which is only available to Guardians, and must be attached to a Guardian Specialization. In all other respects , a duel is just another combat encounter. That's why it doesn't need any other "special" rules. The sparring rules in DoH are designed for training exercises, not mortal combat. whereas Fated Duel prevents outside forces from interfering in a duel to the death between hated foes.

Edited by Tramp Graphics
12 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Well, the thing is that, by RAW, the only way to ensure a one-on-one duel with no interference by outside forces (on either side) is through the Fated Duel signature ability, which is only available to Guardians, and must be attached to a Guardian Specialization. In all other respects , a duel is just another combat encounter. That's why it doesn't need any other "special" rules. The sparring rules in DoH are designed for training exercises, not mortal combat. whereas Fated Duel prevents outside forces from interfering in a duel to the death between hated foes.

I sort of don't know why I'm getting sucked into this...England lost the World Cup semi-final last night, which has put me in a bad mood, I guess. Anyway. Here we go.

I understand that that's the case by RAW. I'm looking for a non-RAW way of handling things. Because, to me, the RAW doesn't cover what I want to do, which is have an extended one-on-one duel that might last for about 20 minutes of gameplay in a single-player session I'm due to run on Sunday. It'll be a lightsaber duel, so having "just another combat encounter" will basically mean the first character to succeed on 2 checks will win, given how lethal lightsabers are in this game. Which isn't cinematic. So I don't want to do that.

I want to do something different. That's literally the point of house-rules. If you check the OP, I wasn't asking for a clarification of the RAW. I appreciate your time, but it sort of feels like you're now just repeatedly telling me what the rules are. I know what the rules are. I want to do something different.

(Also, since I'm apparently here anyway, I've noticed your habit of putting things in bold on this and other posts. I'm sure you mean well, and you're just trying to clarify, but I just wanted to let you know that it comes across as a bit aggressive.)

15 hours ago, whafrog said:

 First, if you don't have Parry, you shouldn't be duelling. If you wanted to make a duel last longer, you could temporarily raise the amount that Parry soaks up (eg: 2 * ranks + X), but it's probably not necessary. If the PC can't get Parry because of the "It's not Genesys" straightjacket, grant a rank just for the purpose of the duel (and bump up any ranks for other PCs).

1

Is it weird that I'm happy to invent an entire new system of rules, but granting extra unearned ranks of talents feels like crossing a line, somehow?

15 hours ago, whafrog said:

   I do like the idea of breaking up the encounter into phases/sub-encounters, but the simplest mechanic here would just be to let the Wound Threshold refresh for each phase. Whoever incapacitates the other in a phase will still be dealing a crit, and they'll get the opportunity to monologue and gloat a bit :) If you want each phase to last longer, you can also temporarily double the WT (something I do anyway because I don't use stimpacks). If you want the crits to be less lethal, subtract 20 until the final phase. Having a separate DP pool for the duelists (very small, 2-3 max) and resetting it at the end of a phase might also be a good idea.

1

Hmm. I mean, you're not wrong, that would be simpler. Although it feels a bit...Tekken/Mortal Kombat-esque: "Wounds have reset. 3....2...1...Go!" But I'll think on it. You might be right.

15 hours ago, whafrog said:

Finally, I would worry less about the mechanics of who is the lead-duelist and all the call/response stuff. (Though you might want to look at the duelling rules in...Fly Casual, I think?) Instead, each phase should have a point (get out of the hangar, prevent the opponent from making it to a speeder, etc) and treat it more like a chase. That way the players (and you) have the freedom to adapt to whatever comes up rather than trying to slot activities into a limited set of skill checks.

Eh, I like the lead-duellist bit. It really feels to tie into what we see in the movies - Anakin/Obi-Wan is the most obvious example, but I also think Luke/Vader in both Empire and Jedi show one character or the other really leading different parts of the fight. Having said that, one of my players (not the duellist) has suggested that a more dynamic initiative system might be better: a way for the duellists to win initiative back off each other. Maybe a good use for a Triumph?

I do agree that trying to slot activities into a limited set of skill checks is a bit problematic. Maybe the number of rounds doesn't need to be clearly defined at the beginning of each sub-encounter. Or, at least, maybe that information should be kept secret from the player?

My first question would be "what am I looking to accomplish?"

If your main goal is to avoid the rocket-tag aspect of lightsaber duels that occurs thanks to the Breach quality, then I would suggest that instead of concocting an overly-convoluted new set of rules, just simply say that for the purpose of one-on-one duels that lightsabers are not considered to have the Breach quality. This will have the end result of making the fights much more drawn out, especially if one or both combatants have multiple ranks of Parry; however a Makashi Duelist and Shii-Cho Knight are going to be nightmares in such instances due to how many ranks of Parry they get easy means of replenishing their strain thresholds, and a Shii-Cho Knight with Supreme Parry and Defensive Circle is likewise going to be a stonewall that's going to make one-on-one duels last a whole lot longer.

Another alternative is to adopt an approach similar to the skill challenge mechanics of D&D 4e and SWd20 Saga Edition, and include a caveat that you can't use the same skill in consecutive rounds. So if in a duel, you could open with Lightsaber, but next round you'd have to use some other skill, with success giving you some edge in the fight while failure gives the edge to your opponent.

Or lastly, just make the Lightsaber combat checks have an opposed difficulty. This wasn't done in the main rules simply because it made melee combats far too drawn out when the designers were looking for a combat system that was "fast and dangerous," but for your purposes it might actually work so that 'saber fights aren't bouts of rocket tag.

Another point to keep in mind is that a combat round doesn't have a set length of time as opposed to the "set number of seconds" that a number of more crunchy RPGs utilize. Over in the Force and Destiny sub-forum, Desslok had a very insightful thread that broke down most of the major lightsaber duels from the films, and most of those didn't last more than three or four rounds in spite of the films having said fights take place over the course of several minutes.

52 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

just simply say that for the purpose of one-on-one duels that lightsabers are not considered to have the Breach quality 

This is actually a really, really smart idea.

53 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

include a caveat that you can't use the same skill in consecutive rounds 

So...this really bothers me. I've seen it done plenty of times, but it just feels so...arbitrary. I understand that sometimes you need to do things for the mechanics to work, but "you can't do that because you did it before" as a rule just really annoys me. Maybe it's just a personal pet-peeve. But I'd much rather try to have a system, or a scenario, that encouraged a divergence in skills, than enforcing something like this.

53 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Desslok  had a very insightful thread that broke down most of the major lightsaber duels from the films        

Any chance of a link?

9 hours ago, edwardavern said:

I sort of don't know why I'm getting sucked into this...England lost the World Cup semi-final last night, which has put me in a bad mood, I guess. Anyway. Here we go.

I understand that that's the case by RAW. I'm looking for a non-RAW way of handling things. Because, to me, the RAW doesn't cover what I want to do, which is have an extended one-on-one duel that might last for about 20 minutes of gameplay in a single-player session I'm due to run on Sunday. It'll be a lightsaber duel, so having "just another combat encounter" will basically mean the first character to succeed on 2 checks will win, given how lethal lightsabers are in this game. Which isn't cinematic. So I don't want to do that.

I want to do something different. That's literally the point of house-rules. If you check the OP, I wasn't asking for a clarification of the RAW. I appreciate your time, but it sort of feels like you're now just repeatedly telling me what the rules are. I know what the rules are. I want to do something different.

(Also, since I'm apparently here anyway, I've noticed your habit of putting things in bold on this and other posts. I'm sure you mean well, and you're just trying to clarify, but I just wanted to let you know that it comes across as a bit aggressive.)

My point is that the only difference between a duel and a standard combat is the number of combatants. There is no other difference. That is why there aren’t any specia rules for them, nor are any needed. The only thing Fated Duel does is keep other combatants from interfering in a one-on-one duel. Everything else remains the same ruleswise. As others have stated, the actual amount of time each round takes is relatively nebulous, lasting up to a minute easily.

12 hours ago, edwardavern said:

Having said that, one of my players (not the duellist) has suggested that a more dynamic initiative system might be better: a way for the duellists to win initiative back off each other. Maybe a good use for a Triumph?  

In starship combat, 3 Threats or 1 Despair can be spent on the result "The initiative slot being used by the active player drops to last in the initiative order." I can def see this ported or modified to your duel system.

14 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

My  point is that the only difference between a duel and a standard combat is the number of combatants   . There is no other difference   . 

I disagree. *Shrug*.

You could say the same thing about a massive space battle and a standard combat.

11 hours ago, panpolyqueergeek said:

In starship combat, 3 Threats or 1 Despair can be spent on the result "The initiative slot being used by the active player drops to last in the initiative order." I can def see this ported or modified to your duel system.

Ooh! How have I missed that rule?! That's great - and yes, absolutely that could be ported over. And actually I much prefer using Threat/Despair that way, because it means that the player wouldn't be forced into making a default decision every time they roll a triumph; they can be more creative with it! Thanks @panpolyqueergeek .

8 hours ago, edwardavern said:

I disagree. *Shrug*.

You could say the same thing about a massive space battle and a standard combat.

Ooh! How have I missed that rule?! That's great - and yes, absolutely that could be ported over. And actually I much prefer using Threat/Despair that way, because it means that the player wouldn't be forced into making a default decision every time they roll a triumph; they can be more creative with it! Thanks @panpolyqueergeek .

I'm going by RAW here. By RAW , there is no difference whatsoever in how combat runs, whether it is a one-on-one duel, or a mass melee. The rules for combat are the same. A Duel is just a combat between two individuals. Fated Duel allows two opponents to fight undisturbed by other combatants for a limited amount of time, but that is all it does.

Oh FFS. Can't be bothered with this anymore.

Long story short, for anyone who cares - I ran these houserules on Sunday. There were some issues, and it wasn't perfect, but the duel was decently cinematic and the player was happy. Thanks to those who provided constructive advice.

@Tramp Graphics he expressly stated he is looking to home brew something and not looking for a RAW solution. If you are not willing to help go outside of RAW please stop posting, its unnecessarily combative.

I think a duel can be looked at like a chase.

Make it an opposed check. Whoever wins gets to make a combat check.

And it'd allow a person to use any justifiable skill.

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 7:46 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Well, the only other option for one-on-one duels is the Fated Duel Signature Ability from the Guardian career found in Keeping the Peace . That is designed for a Guardian to take on a personal nemesis in one-on-one combat ala Obi-Wan vs Vader.

Actually, if you want a nice duel mechanic that's a bit more than just a straight glowbat swinging session, I suggest the Fly Casual Showdowns rules.

Whilst narratively described as cowboy style pistol duels, nothing about them doesn't work when starting with two (or more) jedi at engaged range with their lightsabers (ignited or not).

It essentially breaks the duel down into three bits:

  1. a 'staredown' phase where you can use coercion/deception/perception/etc to get inside your opponent's head
    • Generates boost/setback dice for the next phase and/or layers strain onto your opponent
  2. an opposed cool check for the actual initiative
  3. the 'first strike' for the first round of combat
    • this differs from standard combat (and subsequent rounds of the duel) in that you get a specific-to-showdowns advantage/threat/despair/triumph table for this round specifically to use the icons generated here and in previous rounds, including such scary-as results as " a non-nemesis opponent is killed instantly "

I fear this post is too late, but might be worth noting for future people needing this...

Edited by Magnus Grendel

Its good but its not great for long drawn out combat sequences.

15 hours ago, TheShard said:

Its good but its not great for long drawn out combat sequences.

True. I was picturing it more for Akira Kurosawa-esque " staring-meaningfully-across-the-drifting-cherry-blossoms-followed-by-two-to-three-actual-swings ".

Edited by Magnus Grendel

Is excellent for that yes