So in the deathstar 2 thrown room scene, when the emperor was trying to convert Luke to the dark side and said "you want this don't you?" Referring to Luke's lightsaber on the armrest of the emperor's throne and he says "strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the darkside will be complete" shortly thereafter Luke tries to do exactly that but vader ignites his own saber and blocks Luke's strike saving the emperor.

So why, besides that it wasn't the story George Lucas wanted to tell i.e. I'm asking for an in universe explanation... didn't vader let Luke strike down the emperor, fall to darkside, and then the 2 of them would rule the galaxy together as father and son (like he tried to convince Luke to do in empire)? The emperor was expecting vader to block, and the emperor didn't see it coming that vader was going to throw him in the pit so, and scheming to kill your master and take his place is the Sith way (so it's not like vader thinking that would be unusual/ a tip off)...

Thoughts?/opinions?

It sounds like a great jumping off point for an alternate universe campaign to me...

Maybe Vader was already contemplating (at least subconsciously) redeeming his son and that wouldn't be possible if Luke killed the Emperor?

33 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Maybe Vader was already contemplating (at least subconsciously) redeeming his son and that wouldn't be possible if Luke killed the Emperor?

That's my two cents. I'd need to rewatch RotJ to have a better idea of it, but sounds legit right now.

47 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

It  sounds  like a great jumping off point for an alternate universe campaign to me...

To me as well ?

Here's one of the few ways the prequels actually made the OT better.

Vader still thinks of himself as Anakin, a good guy. Sure he's doing some pretty dark stuff but he's a good person under all the hate. It's not rational, but it's what he believes.

He wants Luke to join him so he can reshape the galaxy into the nicer Empire he's deluded himself into thinking he'd create if only it wasn't for that darn Emperor. He talks about the Dark side as if he's in control and it's just the better way. Its cognitive dissonance.

However, at this point in the throne room, Luke has refused his offer and Vader is left with protecting the Emperor or losing the Emperor AND probably Luke. Add in some Stockholm syndrome and it's perfectly understandable.

The scene in Last Jedi also shows how fast someone can manifest Force lightning so it's also likely Vader blocked because Luke was about to take a face full of Force lightning like his nephew did 30 some years later from Snoke.

In any case, he finally fulfills his destiny of bringing balance to the Force. First by hunting and eliminating virtually every Jedi that survived order 66, except 2 (books/TV series retcons not withstanding) , but by killing Palpatine also since he became such an imbalance in the absence of strong light side/Jedi to keep him in check.

I would argue its quite simple: a father's love.

He did not want his son to turn to the dark side as he had.

Luke: "There is still good in you. I can feel it."

Maybe the dormant conscience within awoke like a lion and roared with remorse?

At that point in the film Vader is still following orders from the Emporer and quite happy to be subservient to him. Had he decided at that point to join Luke in his attack then both Vader and Luke would likely have died shortly after. Im fairly sure that the Emporer at this point would have the precognition to know if Vader wasnt going to help him and probably would have then taken both of them apart (look how easy he took apart 2 Jedi council members while also fighting a third (although this wasn't handled well in the film and was a way more epic fight in the book), similarly Yoda wasnt able to defeat him and Maul/Savage were made fools of. He was no slouch in combat and if under threat could have handled himself, the book portrays him as having lightning speed.

Ultimately it was the reality that if Vader didn't act, Luke was going to die, that awoke Vader/Anakin's compassion and while the Emporer's focus was totally on Luke and he felt safe, that Vader was able to do the unexpected and turn on him. Im fairly sure in a straight up fight , Lucas would have felt the Emporer would have won against both of them. The whole point was that Luke chose not to fight , which was against everyone's expectations from Yoda to Vader and the Emporer himself. Luke's only winning move was "not to p!ay" (Wargames reference for those that are as old as me)

Luke likely wouldn't have fallen if he just killed the emperor, Palpatine was outmatched if two of the most powerful force users ever decided to attack him, the reason he could handle either Skywalker alone was because the older one had an engineered weakness to lightning and the young one was well not practiced enough.

Vader at that time knew that Luke wouldn't turn Just from his goading, he failed on bespin, he needed the darkside pressure from his master long enough so Luke could turn and then hopefully help him take out the Emperor. That's why he blocked the lightsaber, he needed his master up until he'd be able to overthrow him with his son.

7 hours ago, Shlambate said:

Vader at that time knew that Luke wouldn't turn Just from his goading, he failed on bespin, he needed the darkside pressure from his master long enough so Luke could turn and then hopefully help him take out the Emperor. That's why he blocked the lightsaber, he needed his master up until he'd be able to overthrow him with his son.

I agree.

The whole confrontation in the Emperor's throne room was engineered, all to push Luke to make a conscious choice to turn to the dark side rather than reacting out of brief moments of aggression.

Yes, Palpatine was unarmed (as far as we know he wasn't carrying a lightsaber at that moment), but it could be argued he was far from innocent given he was the mastermind who gave the orders to spring the trap that could very well have destroyed the Rebel Alliance once and for all. Luke striking the Emperor down in righteous fury, while pushing the boy closer to the dark side wouldn't have been enough to cement his turn, and Vader knew that.

As you said, Palps felt secure enough in his power that he wasn't worried about having to take on Luke or Vader by himself, especially if you factor in his powers and abilities from the Clone Wars and Revenge of the Sith. And not unlike the engineered confrontation between Dooku and Anakin in RotS, Palps fully expected only one of the two combatants to survive; Luke tossing away his lightsaber and refusing to "properly" end the duel likely cheesed off the Emperor to know end, thus why he in a fit of bad guy rage wanted to make sure that Luke's demise was as slow and as agonizing as possible, while also making sure Vader was reminded of his place as the Emperor's underling. Shame about Vader having a change of heart at the last moment though...

17 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

[...] thrown room scene [...]

I only wanted to comment how much I love this pun.

I wouldn't assume Vader had a master plan for this confrontation. I imagine he was dealing with some conflicted thoughts, which Palpatine would have found delightful.

20 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

So in the deathstar 2 thrown room scene, when the emperor was trying to convert Luke to the dark side and said "you want this don't you?" Referring to Luke's lightsaber on the armrest of the emperor's throne and he says "strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the darkside will be complete" shortly thereafter Luke tries to do exactly that but vader ignites his own saber and blocks Luke's strike saving the emperor.

So why, besides that it wasn't the story George Lucas wanted to tell i.e. I'm asking for an in universe explanation... didn't vader let Luke strike down the emperor, fall to darkside, and then the 2 of them would rule the galaxy together as father and son (like he tried to convince Luke to do in empire)? The emperor was expecting vader to block, and the emperor didn't see it coming that vader was going to throw him in the pit so, and scheming to kill your master and take his place is the Sith way (so it's not like vader thinking that would be unusual/ a tip off)...

Thoughts?/opinions?

It sounds like a great jumping off point for an alternate universe campaign to me...

Aside from the very obvious reason of he was still conflicted on where his loyalties would lie, it also built up to dramatic tension. Remember, earlier on in the same movie, when Luke flat out asks him to leave with him and give up the Dark Side, Vader flat out says why he doesn't do that. "You don't understand the power of the Emperor....I MUST obey my Master." Basically saying "He's like Over 9000, Super Sayan Level 10, Blue Hair, Fusion Mode. He will totally wreck you as the padawan newb that you are. He'd even wreck me if we came to direct blows....so no, I'm not betraying him." That was his Fear talking, also probably a healthy dose of guilt and regret, making him feel he wasn't worthy of a happy ending. Mix that all up, and he was basically just going through the motions. Sure, in Empire, he talked about taking out the Emperor, but that doesn't mean he was telling the truth. It's possible he didn't think they could kill him together, and was just using it as an angle to try and get Luke over to their side. Playing on his sense of duty to end the Emperor, and work that angle long enough for him to turn him to the Dark Side. Thus saving his life, and also getting to have a Father/Son dynamic that he wanted, while also appeasing the Emperor. Win/win for him.

Specifically regarding the saber block scene, at that point, again, he was still conflicted, and still obeying his Master, as he said he would. He didn't see any good conclusions where Luke fought the Emperor, which is why he tried to talk him over to the Dark, between saber fights in the throne room. Only when it came down to the actual death of his son, and him laying there, begging him for help, did he finally decide that he didn't care about any of the other circumstances that were coloring his decisions, and decided to be the father his son never had, at least once, and save him, even if it cost his own life. A life he likely felt was about to end anyway, given his injuries, so he felt he had nothing to lose anymore. And with the opportunity to try and do something right with the last moments of his life...a life he probably spent hating himself through the entire time (fueling his Dark powers with self-hate, loathing, misery, etc), he didn't see it as worth keeping around, so he ended it on his terms, to try and give his son a chance that he didn't.

That's my take anyway.

Palpatines power is over blown honestly, he was running from Yoda in The Revenge of the Sith, Vader only is scared of Palpatine because his suit is engineered to be weak to Palpatines strongest attack, his lightning.

Vader wasn't dying until he chose not to sustain himself with the force, he did so after surviving wounds that would kill a lesser Jedi on Mustafar, Vader simply knew it was his time to go, since if he stayed he'd be tried as a war criminal or put his son in the position to defend his father who the universe still saw as evil possibly leading to a life on the run, he knew it was just better to pass the torch to his son.

Just now, Shlambate said:

Palpatines power is over blown honestly, he was running from Yoda in The Revenge of the Sith, Vader only is scared of Palpatine because his suit is engineered to be weak to Palpatines strongest attack, his lightning.

I disagree that Palpatine was overblown, the intent of the scene was to show him as a powerful, neigh unstoppable Dark Side user. We can try and nerf him by using game mechanics all day, but the bottom line, from a narrative structure, he was a terrifying powerhouse, unleashing a new ability that totally shut down the completely healthy, and only slightly winded, young Skywalker.

8 minutes ago, Shlambate said:

Vader wasn't dying until he chose not to sustain himself with the force, he did so after surviving wounds that would kill a lesser Jedi on Mustafar, Vader simply knew it was his time to go, since if he stayed he'd be tried as a war criminal or put his son in the position to defend his father who the universe still saw as evil possibly leading to a life on the run, he knew it was just better to pass the torch to his son.

Where are you getting this? Sustaining himself with the Force? If that's what was keeping him alive, why did he have the suit at all? It was the suit keeping him alive, and it was the damage to the suit that was killing him. His mechanical wheezing, Luke commenting that taking off the helmet would kill him, all point to the suit, not the Force, sustaining him.

And it just being his time to go? Then why all the conflicted feelings on the matter? We clearly see him looking between his son and Palp's, and visibly struggling with what choice to make. It's not like he was looking at his watch and said "Oh, it's 6:30pm, time for me to die now." He made a choice, to risk his life to stop the Emperor from killing his son. It wasn't just a "well, I'm clocking out now, time for me to go."

3 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

I disagree that Palpatine was overblown, the intent of the scene was to show him as a powerful, neigh unstoppable Dark Side user. We can try and nerf him by using game mechanics all day, but the bottom line, from a narrative structure, he was a terrifying powerhouse, unleashing a new ability that totally shut down the completely healthy, and only slightly winded, young Skywalker.

Where are you getting this? Sustaining himself with the Force? If that's what was keeping him alive, why did he have the suit at all? It was the suit keeping him alive, and it was the damage to the suit that was killing him. His mechanical wheezing, Luke commenting that taking off the helmet would kill him, all point to the suit, not the Force, sustaining him.

And it just being his time to go? Then why all the conflicted feelings on the matter? We clearly see him looking between his son and Palp's, and visibly struggling with what choice to make. It's not like he was looking at his watch and said "Oh, it's 6:30pm, time for me to die now." He made a choice, to risk his life to stop the Emperor from killing his son. It wasn't just a "well, I'm clocking out now, time for me to go."

Well how long do you think he was being crispy on mustafar most people would have died after all the damage that was done to Anakin was done. Consider also that even if hyperspace travel is an hour between Coruscant and Mustafar then Anakin still had to survive that long burnt to a crisp with non functioning lungs, his hate sustained him. If it's anything more than an hour in time his feat of merely not dying is insane! This is a guy with burnt insides and outsides, next to a Lava flow, lying in the dirt helpless because he has no limbs he's not exactly the guy you'd bet on living.

His injuries from the fight with Luke were not at all life threatening, it's the electric shock that fried his suit that made it hard for him to live, but if he wanted to like he did on Mustafar he would have lived.

2 hours ago, Shlambate said:

Well how long do you think he was being crispy on mustafar

I don't know, based on the film, the length of time to do a screen wipe. We have no frame of reference for the length of time between Kenobi leaving, and Palp's showing up.

2 hours ago, Shlambate said:

most people would have died after all the damage that was done to Anakin was done.

If we're going to use real world logic for damage, then Luke would've been cooked instantly by that much live current arcing through his body. But this is Star Wars, logic doesn't apply, it's why space ships can make screaming noises, bank like they are in air currents, and people can move objects with their minds. Luke was basically uninjured by the time he beat Vader, he was only slightly winded from physical exertion, and he was in the prime of his youth. But one shot from that Unleash by Palp's, and he was completely incapacitated. Then, when he started zotting him again, Mark's screams of agony make it pretty apparent how powerful, and damaging the attack was. You don't howl in agony unless you are in agony, and Mark is a good actor, he knows how to sell a scene with physical acting.

2 hours ago, Shlambate said:

Consider also that even if hyperspace travel is an hour between Coruscant and Mustafar then Anakin still had to survive that long burnt to a crisp with non functioning lungs, his hate sustained him.

Sure, I can totally buy that his anger kept him from dying up until he could get medical help. But I point to the fact that Palpatine didn't do a magic ritual over him, yelling "LET YOUR HATE SUSTAIIIIIN YOU DAAARTH VADER!! LET IT GIVE YOU LIIIIIIIIFE!! AHAHAHAHAAH!" which he totally would've done. No, he took him to a medical facility, and got him on life support equipment ASAP. To say that the suit wasn't keeping him alive, seems to intentionally ignore what we are actually shown in the film.

2 hours ago, Shlambate said:

This is a guy with burnt insides and outsides, next to a Lava flow, lying in the dirt helpless because he has no limbs he's not exactly the guy you'd bet on living.

Yeah but that lava flow wasn't that bad actually. Remember him and Kenobi were casually surfing it for a looong time before he got de-limbed. Those little droids they were standing on were floating in the lava, which put both of them only maybe a foot above the lava flow. So again, if neither of them were bothered by that proximity to lava, the fact that he got lightly singed isn't that big of a deal. Kenobi came out of it unscathed.

2 hours ago, Shlambate said:

His injuries from the fight with Luke were not at all life threatening, it's the electric shock that fried his suit that made it hard for him to live , but if he wanted to like he did on Mustafar he would have lived.

I thought you said it was his hate that sustained, but now it's the damage to the suit?

As to the fight with Luke, he was clearly laying on the ground, gasping for breath. You can clearly hear the mechanisms, straining to keep him alive. Now sure he got up from it, but to say he wasn't seriously injured. If it was such a casual injury, again, there wouldn't have been the scream of agony from Vader, and he wouldn't have just laid there, clearly beaten, begging for his life. He would've just picked himself up and kept fighting if it was a flesh wound. But clearly it wasn't, because he didn't act like it was.

4 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

I don't know, based on the film, the length of time to do a screen wipe. We have no frame of reference for the length of time between Kenobi leaving, and Palp's showing up.

Indeterminate But ultimately a feat of sheer will to live. Remember the force can deal in premonition and a Core to outer rim flight is not Instantaneous even with a Class 0.5 Hyperdrive.

6 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

If we're going to use real world logic for damage, then Luke would've been cooked instantly by that much live current arcing through his body. But this is Star Wars, logic doesn't apply, it's why space ships can make screaming noises, bank like they are in air currents, and people can move objects with their minds. Luke was basically uninjured by the time he beat Vader, he was only slightly winded from physical exertion, and he was in the prime of his youth. But one shot from that Unleash by Palp's, and he was completely incapacitated. Then, when he started zotting him again, Mark's screams of agony make it pretty apparent how powerful, and damaging the attack was. You don't howl in agony unless you are in agony, and Mark is a good actor, he knows how to sell a scene with physical acting.

There are non-Force Sensitives that survive much less more akin to what real people survive so the point still stands, Force Sensitives are more durable than the usual stock

8 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Sure, I can totally buy that his anger kept him from dying up until he could get medical help. But I point to the fact that Palpatine didn't do a magic ritual over him, yelling "LET YOUR HATE SUSTAIIIIIN YOU DAAARTH VADER!! LET IT GIVE YOU LIIIIIIIIFE!! AHAHAHAHAAH!" which he totally would've done. No, he took him to a medical facility, and got him on life support equipment ASAP. To say that the suit wasn't keeping him alive, seems to intentionally ignore what we are actually shown in the film.

Just Kinda a thing that has been established by George and many of his other writings, if a Sith Gets mad they can survive just about anything, **** thats how Maul is explained to live, and thats How George OK'ed it when he was still in charge of TCW TV show.

10 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Yeah but that lava flow wasn't that bad actually. Remember him and Kenobi were casually surfing it for a looong time before he got de-limbed. Those little droids they were standing on were floating in the lava, which put both of them only maybe a foot above the lava flow. So again, if neither of them were bothered by that proximity to lava, the fact that he got lightly singed isn't that big of a deal. Kenobi came out of it unscathed.

Technically with real physics they all should burn up once the lightsabers turn on and Only Vader in the OT looks like he has a suit that could be built for Lightsaber combat, Ignoring that, Being that close to lava they should be uncomfortably hot (if not on fire) and Anakin did catch flame so its not like he was just chilling there .

13 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

I thought you said it was his hate that sustained, but now it's the damage to the suit?

I said made it hard not impossible! There is a difference, His suit made it so he wouldn't have to spend all his focus on keeping himself from dying. He could focus his powers outward if his suit is in full operation.

17 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

As to the fight with Luke, he was clearly laying on the ground, gasping for breath. You can clearly hear the mechanisms, straining to keep him alive. Now sure he got up from it, but to say he wasn't seriously injured. If it was such a casual injury, again, there wouldn't have been the scream of agony from Vader, and he wouldn't have just laid there, clearly beaten, begging for his life. He would've just picked himself up and kept fighting if it was a flesh wound. But clearly it wasn't, because he didn't act like it was.

The only thing hit was his mechanical arm, while heavy breathing can be from a work out from his son going all dark while he was not all together himself, he couldn't actually bring it to kill his son as Luke said there was "still good in him". The labored breathing of the mechanism comes from after the shocking of Palpatine. I would say that Vader was stunned by his son's ferocity and his beating of him more so than suffering any grievous injury.

You seem to be inserting rationales for things that are far more easily explained simply by what's on the screen. So I'm Occum Razoring the rationale for why he did what he did.

If you want to decide it's because he kept himself alive with the force, instead of the very obvious life support suit he had for several movies, and that he decided to just punch out because it was "his time", instead of making a Heroic Sacrifice to save his son, end the tyrannical reign of an evil dictator, and open the door for his own redemption, as well as open the door for the forces of good to topple the evil regime he helped put in place...well, I can't stop you. It makes for a far less dramatically satisfying end to the story, but if that's what floats your boat, whatever.

On 7/5/2018 at 9:24 PM, KungFuFerret said:

I thought you said it was his hate that sustained, but now it's the damage to the suit?

Stop being so silly. ?

My reading of the scene is that Palpatine had a way of inducing a powerful, Stockholm Syndrome-esque loyalty in Vader. Loyalty to him personally, but more importantly, loyalty to the Dark Side. "I must obey my master," Vader says in an earlier scene.

Yes, in ESB he seems to flirt with the idea of joining Luke and turning on Palpatine--but only if Luke will turn to the Dark Side. In my view, the Dark Side is addictive and exerts a powerful temptation over Force users, especially Sith lords who have learned to depend on the Dark Side. The prospect of turning against Palpatine is difficult for Vader to entertain; the prospect of turning away from darkness is almost unimaginable. I don't think there's any way to make sense of the way the Force works in Star Wars unless you understand the Dark Side this way, as a powerful temptation which quickly becomes an addictive dependency in those who stop resisting it. "Forever will it dominate your destiny."

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

Stop being so silly. ?

I'm not being silly, I'm pointing out a contradiction in his stated reason for why Vader died. He first said it was because it was apparently just "his time" and so he basically just stopped keeping himself alive with the Force, and then said it was due to damage to the suit. Those are directly opposite statements of why he died.

But at this point it's a moot point, as I previously stated

On 7/10/2018 at 1:23 AM, KungFuFerret said:

I'm not being silly, I'm pointing out a contradiction in his stated reason for why Vader died. He first said it was because it was apparently just "his time" and so he basically just stopped keeping himself alive with the Force, and then said it was due to damage to the suit. Those are directly opposite statements of why he died.

But at this point it's a moot point, as I previously stated

I am just pointing out, how silly it is from a smart guy like to to assume here and "exclusive or" connection.

Novels, canon, legends, all full of examples of force users, Vader included to keep themselves alive via the force when life supporting systems fail. That does not mean that using life supporting systems would be more convenient, in general preferable and for long-term survival maybe even needed.

1. And I think we can both agree that Vader lost the rage and his absolute drive for survival when he returned to the light.
2. He was ok with becoming one with the force.
3. If he really could have sustained himself long enough with the force … is doubtful and not really important anyway, but he left the impression that he did not even tried too.

26 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

I am just pointing out, how silly it is from a smart guy like to to assume here and "exclusive or" connection.

Novels, canon, legends, all full of examples of force users, Vader included to keep themselves alive via the force when life supporting systems fail. That does not mean that using life supporting systems would be more convenient, in general preferable and for long-term survival maybe even needed.

1. And I think we can both agree that Vader lost the rage and his absolute drive for survival when he returned to the light.
2. He was ok with becoming one with the force.
3. If he really could have sustained himself long enough with the force … is doubtful and not really important anyway, but he left the impression that he did not even tried too.

Warriors of Fate gives us the Endure Force power that covers this exact situation. Vader was dying, used Endure, and then dropped the power after removing his mask and seeing Luke. Then the life-ending critical injuries suffered from Palpatine's Force Lighting took effect and Vader dies.

2 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Warriors of Fate gives us the Endure Force power that covers this exact situation. Vader was dying, used Endure, and then dropped the power after removing his mask and seeing Luke. Then the life-ending critical injuries suffered from Palpatine's Force Lighting took effect and Vader dies.

Sounds like a valid interpretation. Though I don't remember Vader using the force after getting hit by lighting. There was one edition in which GL thought it would be cool to have some humming in the background to show each "hidden" use of the force. No use of Endure or anything in that scene iirc.

On 7/10/2018 at 6:51 PM, SEApocalypse said:

I am just pointing out, how silly it is from a smart guy like to to assume here and "exclusive or" connection.

Novels, canon, legends, all full of examples of force users, Vader included to keep themselves alive via the force when life supporting systems fail. That does not mean that using life supporting systems would be more convenient, in general preferable and for long-term survival maybe even needed.

1. And I think we can both agree that Vader lost the rage and his absolute drive for survival when he returned to the light.
2. He was ok with becoming one with the force.
3. If he really could have sustained himself long enough with the force … is doubtful and not really important anyway, but he left the impression that he did not even tried too.

The point I was making, based on the other posters statement of what actually killed Vader, and how over-represented Palpatine makes no sense. He basically said the suit wasn't being used to keep him alive, that it was just "The Force and his Rage", which implies he didn't need the support system. (directly in contradiction to everything we are shown, and what is implied with the actual dialogue between the characters. And that he died because he apparently switched off his "Being Angry to Live" Force switch, and just died, because it was his "time to go." Which makes no sense. It's again, directly in contradiction to what is a lot more logical, and less complicated (not to mention not at all supported by the films climax) reason. If Palp's lightning was actually super weak, as he implied, then Luke was apparently just what...pretending to be horribly crippled and in agony on the floor for....reasons? And if it again was so weak, and we assume the severed hand wasn't enough to compromise Vader's suit (a reasonable assumption, but could be debated, we have no idea what parts are vital in that system), then the lightning bolts, which light him up so much we see his skeleton was again what, just a tickle? Which means that nothing actually killed Vader , other than apparently he chose that moment to just stop living...again because why? Reasons? There is no reason in a narrative structure, to assume this is what killed him, when we have evidence to the contrary directly shown to us in the film. Palp's shoots lightning from his hands, and if the level of electricity they show us is taken on a normal, realistic level, then it's on par with the stuff you see Tesla coils put out that would instantly kill someone if they were struck by it . So again, they aren't weak bolts if we're going the "realistic" route. Now narratively, yeah they weren't instantly fatal, because it's a story, and in the end the Protagonist has to win. So while they are painful, and likely incredibly damaging and wounding (if not, why wouldn't Luke actually fight back or escape? as there is no benefit to him to just play along with Palp's ego), of course they don't insta-kill him, or Vader, because they need to have the Reconciliation Scene, after Vader's Heroic Sacrifice.

AND, if we're going to try and use statistics of the roleplaying games to try and justify the logic of the movies (movies made long before some of these stats even existed, because they were made AFTER to explain away what we see in the films), then Unleash, which is what Palp's did, is crazy powerful. Especially for a high Force Rating dark sider with Sadistic Glee inked on his Tramp Stamp spot.

On 7/6/2018 at 1:54 AM, Shlambate said:

Palpatines power is over blown honestly, he was running from Yoda in The Revenge of the Sith, Vader only is scared of Palpatine because his suit is engineered to be weak to Palpatines strongest attack, his lightning.

Umm...he beat Yoda in RotS - Yoda ran from the fight, if you remember. He successfully hid his origin, intentions, and powers from the entire Jedi Order for over ten years. He took down three Jedi Masters in about 2.5 seconds and was only just defeated by the Grand High Wizard Mugwump Swordmaster of the Jedi Order. He then handily took out Darth Maul and Savage Oppress without breaking a sweat.

I really don't think Palpatine's reputation is overblown...