So, I just had a conversation in the Fan Creations thread that's really more about a game variant, so it doesn't quite belong there. Basically what I wanted to know is if A) people wanted to make any suggestions B) people had suggestions for how to handle it beyond the base game and C) if people had any feedback (which is really a subpoint of point A, but, I like sets of threes, even if they're artificial).

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romfox said:

My wife and I have been thinking about playing a game were a person is the game/ancient one, playing against the investigators. Has any one ever did this? Are there any rules about doing this?

Our ideas are.

The player being the ancient one/game would

1. Draw the mythos card.

2. Place a gate any where on the board he wants.

3. Place a clue tolken on the board, any where his choosing.

4. The mythos card would act normal, other than those two items.

5. Maybe once a turn control one monster on the board.

6. Maybe control all of the mosters movements each round.

What do you think?

Thanks for the feed back

Avi_dreader said:

I think that'd actually work pretty well if you only had the base game. It'd be highly problematic if you were playing expansion boards for a number of reasons I won't get into here. I've been playing this game for a really long time, so let me make some suggestions how to make it work.

1. I think controlling *all* the monsters that move each round is a good idea (i.e. deciding if they move along the black arrows or the white arrows— that way you could form mobs— but at the same time, your monster movement will still be somewhat constrained, just ignore whether their movement is white or black).

2. Additionally, you can move one monster with its movement type (i.e. move a flyer like a flier, green border with special movement constraints, a red monster twice) as you would move an investigator (i.e. not following lines, and potentially into locations), regardless of whether its movement was shown.

3. Placing the gate is also a pretty good idea (although I'm a little worried that you'll flood the gate limit in eight turns simply by too much control, and players will have no respite). I think unless you're doing like eight players against one game master, you should make the gate placement control be die based (i.e. roll a die, on a 4-6 you may choose where to put the gate). Do not allow for the gate to be redirected onto an unstable location that already has an investigator on it (except maybe in a 7-8 player game).

4. You can't control clue tokens— otherwise you can just shove them all into spots where there are already gates (clues don't appear on gates). What you might want to do is let the Ancient One player roll a die, and on a 1-2 destroy the clue token that would have appeared. Or you can allow for a certain monster, or a certain monster movement pattern (crescents let's say— it doesn't even have to be fixed, you can change it game by game to alter difficulty level) to remove clue tokens whenever it lands on them.

5. You can give the Ancient One player some additional powers, perhaps being able to draw three monsters and choose one, and send them to any location on the board a certain number of times a game (perhaps three times over the course of the game). And to be able to make "A Monster Appears" (same one out of three or one out of two draw) perhaps once a turn on investigators in Other Worlds on a die roll of one. You could also allow for a once per game instant devouring power. Where you just get to point a finger and someone dies (and needs to be replaced). That seems like the sort of power an Ancient One would have :'D (you could also make it dependent on a successful die roll if you think that's too brutal— but really I want the Ancient One to be able to kill Mandy if she ever rears up, and to prevent the development of a superfighter).

6. For final battle, you could give the Ancient One a little extra firepower by allowing either a random selection, or a choosing of specific monsters or monster types (you can choose to make it thematic, or monster symbol driven, or undead, or masks, or whatever, or mechanically driven— i.e. by the player controlling the Ancient One's skill level relative to the other players) that he forces the first player, or all investigators to confront either one or multiple monsters once, or once per round (I leave it to you to decide if they are evadable). In addition to the Ancient One's normal attack of course.

7. Winning by closing gates. You can now win if there is only one gate left open (but remember, investigators must have gate trophies equal to the number of players— before the player count is reduced by extra expansion boards, or you can ignore this last clause if you want).

:') Unfortunately this will only work with the base game. Once you add in more unstable locations and more difficult monsters, I'd need to rethink this (and it'd be somewhat harder for me).

Anyways, I hope you find this new game variant helpful :'D I'm actually kindof envious that you'll get to try it (I'm unwilling to separate all my game components, or track down friends), so it'll probably be a long time before I give it a shot.

Mmmm... This won't matter for the Base Game, but if a Gate Burst is drawn, it can't be moved. Mmmm... And you can't reposition gates onto Elder Signs either (that really only matters with Innsmouth).

Also, optional ways of dealing with excess monster surges are mentioned later in this thread (I'd recommend just not allowing gate control during the first mythos card, and the mythos card of the first turn).

Hrm... Just a quick fix for multiple boards... Perhaps gate locations can only be selected on a roll of six (instead of 4-6), and clues can't be deliberately destroyed on a die roll any more? There'd also need to be a rule for inter-town travel. Feeding the vortexes would be much easier with controlled movement too. Perhaps the instant-kill ability could be removed (as well as the make monsters appear in other dimensions ability). Otherwise I suspect the game would be easily made impossible for the investigators. Or another way of dealing with some of these problems is not alloying The Ancient One to control gate placement in expansion boards (that'd actually fix the problem pretty nicely— and in that case I'd suggest gate location over-rides can take place on a roll of 1-2 instead), and handicap or eliminate control of monster movement there (perhaps only allow for the solitary movement over-ride there— the rest of the monsters follow normal directionality). Whether or not the Dunwich Horror can be controlled would have to be a matter decided house by housed based on relative player skills.

If clues could never be destroyed and must always be put on the board, this would help the investigators. Allowing them a better chance in sealing the gates.

romfox said:

Removing their gate sealing resources is one of the main ways of attack. (That'd make sealing the Science Building a high priority, and a way of doing a special assault— if investigators aren't careful, the Ancient One can throw a gate on it and they won't have enough seals to deal with it). Actually, I just saw a potential problem— the Ancient One deliberately opening gates on investigators. You need to not allow the Ancient One to redirect a gate onto an investigator (unless maybe you're playing a 7-8 player game). Making clues indestructable would seriously unbalance the game in investigators favor. They don't *need* a better chance at sealing the gates ;'D maybe you think they do, but you're new and having figured out all the strategies for exploiting game design yet.

Heh... But I'll leave it to you to discover the various strategies and potential counter-strategies (and if you find something that's absolutely devastating to either of the teams, just make a rule against it). I don't think there's anything other than what I just mentioned that'll be insurmountably difficult though (but I'm not sure what the monster controlling will be like yet, since I've never playtested anything remotely like it).

imo the person playing the AO should only be able to open a gate or cause a monster surge if the mythos card already has the gate location to cause these to occur... if they change the gate location then they shouldn't be able to cause a gate to open on someone or cause a surge

magnumopera said:

I fixed the gate location bit already.

The surges are essential though— it makes sure the Ancient One has monsters to control (and it allows choosing between feeding the terror level or the doom track, and a constant defense of gates if the investigators go on a slaughter spree). The game wouldn't be much fun for the Ancient One if after waiting for four to six players to move It got to move nothing ;'D I would probably remove the insta-kill ability in a game with three or fewer investigators on the base board. Unless the three investigators were controlled by advanced players.

I was actually just thinking of the issue of gate closing victories and how to make them still possible... Since with choosing gates, this game design might be pretty card... I think to compensate for the AO's gate redirection ability the investigators should be able to win the game if there's only one open gate (keeping in mind, they still need a number of gate trophies equal to the number of players, let's say not reducible by the number of expansion boards— change this if you want).

Hrm.... But obviously if someone really wanted to make monster surges not allowed, that'd be fine. Or perhaps only allowed on a roll of 4, or 4-5 (lowering their potential controlled frequency, if they prove to be over-potent).

so what stops an AO-player from opening 1 gate, then surging every subsequent turn until the initial gate is closed? that would let them flood the board with monsters and raise the terror level fast, if the monsters run out the AO awakens, if the terror maxes out from outskirts monsters then the terror increases up the doom track instead

initially the doom track would stay stagnant but after maybe the 3rd or 4th surge the terror will max out, meaning there's next to no allies left in play and additional surges are each worth multiple doom tokens... it takes a few turns to get caught up but once you are you can burn into the endgame and awaken the AO before you even get into double digit turns

magnumopera said:

A couple things.

1. They only have a 50% chance of being able to control the gate placement each round.

2. If they do that a gate closing victory shouldn't be so difficult.

3. You're assuming that the investigators will just take a gate spamming lying down (instead of sending a kamikazi warrior who will wipe most of the stuff off the gate, then get knocked out (and be able to trade for an ally, or deputization, or blessings, or whatever, next turn). By plugging up one gate, the Ancient One player allows investigators to get trading resources really fast (since they wouldn't have to spend five or six turns moving around the board to kill everything— they can do it all, or most of it, in one turn— especially once you get your monster-killer blessed). You're looking at monster clusters as problems (as they would be, if you don't confront them for trophies), not opportunities.

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If you're playing a large number of players, that might be something to worry about (just because number of players will cause an extremely large surge— but again, if you're playing an 6+ player game (or with advanced players), you might want to change the rule so you can only create a deliberate gate surge some of the time, and a gate movement other times. Still... If you're playing a large advanced player game, turn one gate opens, investigators move. Turn two... Hrm... It's doable, but it'd be a bit of a pain.

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Suggested rules fixes: not allowing control over gate placement during the initial mythos phase, or the mythos phase of the first turn. Or increasing the amount of monsters allowed to be in the outskirts. Either method would work (I think).

Oh... This didn't occur to me early (since I was primarily thinking in terms of the base game), but Gate Bursts obviously can't be moved. It'd make the game too hard for the investigators.

::Laughter:: it just occurred to me, that the Ancient One and a player with Joining The Winning Team could now *actively* collude. That's pretty cool :'D

Anyways, keep commenting :') I hate bug fixing in the middle of games. And game changes this drastic are naturally going to have bugs.

::Sigh:: I really want to test this out, but at last my solitary Arkham ways have caught up to me (I don't think this'd be nearly as much fun to play by myself as with people).

Another posibilty for controlling gate openings and the like is to give the AO player a hand of mythos cards, maybe equal to the number of players. They draw a new one each mythos phase but then can choose which one to play from their hand. They can still occasionally do nasty things, like opening gates on people, but don't have carte blanche to do so. It also has the benefit of not requiring a plethora of rules to govern it, that said, I've no idea if it would be playable.

DEBO said:

That could work too :') except I don't think it'd be as much fun for the Ancient One ;') it'd be more randomness and lack of control. I don't know. You could give it a shot, but basically it sounds like the mythos deck would be playing the Ancient One, not vice versa, to me. Plus you'd still require rules, such as not allowing the Ancient One to open gates on players. You'd be able to starve the clue flow for the investigators (by deliberately dropping a gate then putting out clues on it). You'd still have the issue of being able to do early game surges, especially in large number of player games with an eight card hand. Plus your system wouldn't work for the base game (which is what I originally designed it for), because it'd make the Ancient One too constrained and weak.

I'm not really sure why a page of rules is too much to swallow for a drastic restructuring of a game with a 25 page manual ;'D

I mean, sure, you can do something less intricate, but I'm not really sure what the point is if you're just going to mostly let the game play itself (and good luck for the Ancient One player if someone draws Arcane Insight— the game will get even more boring). Another problem with having a starting hand with one draw per turn is you can get off a few strong combos at the beginning, and then the game will start lagging (it will create the perception of anti-climax for the Mythos controller).

::Shrug:: if you want to allow occasional opening gates on people and occasional nasty things, well, you're still going to need "a plethora of rules" ;'D sorry, there's no way around it.

The general rule for gate openings is fairly simple:

You can't open gates on Elder Signs, you can't open them on Investigators, you can't open them in expansions. Repositioning of gates is done on a roll of 4-6 each mythos phase (which can be modified if a player group finds it too easy or difficult), except with the first two mythos cards.

Is that really complicated? If I deleted all the optional language giving suggestions for potential rules changes, I could probably present it in half a page. Basically I've provided a page of potential rules that players can negotiate with prior to a game then settle on when they get a better sense of how they would change the way the game worked. I don't want a overpowering Ancient One against newbies, but I don't want an Ancient One that isn't a significant threat boost among advanced players. Ideally, the Player/AO should feel like a really tough and sentient game (moreso than the automated mythos which can be more hit and miss), requiring A-game from the other players. Or not :') again, I designed this so that newbies or hardcore gamers could deal with it. Perhaps when this topic is more discussed I'll make two variants, one for beginners, and one for advanced players, without all the open ended text, but I have to admit I'm a little daunted by this restructuring, and I want to hear more from other people.

I've actually played this way with my gaming group a few times and it works out rather well. Haven't played with a full group of 8 investigators but I think there were at least 4. Every mythos phase I'd draw two mythos cards and pick which one I wanted to have occur that turn, being able to open gates on investigators, cause surges, gate bursts, whatever, but I could only do what those cards said. This included monster movement; I had to move the monsters based on whatever movement the chosen mythos card stated. I also had my pick of monsters from the monster cup. When monsters needed to appear, I'd draw a few extras and then pick which ones I wanted to appear. Of course, I wasn't going crazy hard core horrible on the players. I wasn't going to try and only place 3 toughness monsters on the board all the time, it's not as much fun for everybody if only the monster beaters got to kill things, plus it would make it alot easier to use the trophy spending locations. I also had my option of which of the top two Arkham/Gate encounters the players would do. I'd read the encounters to them, up until the point when they had to choose to do a specific action or not, or until they had to make a skill check. Then they would only find out the result of the encounter and not the alternative outcomes. But if you know every encounter word for word, this isn't going to make much difference.

No one in my game group had any complaints about how the games we played like this turned out, so I think it works pretty well. But then again, I wasn't playing to win, I was doing this to make the game more exciting. This play alternative is a perfect solution to stopping those long runs of gates opening on sealed locations and a perfect way to balance what investigators get out of encounters. I've seen too many games when one investigator just can't catch a break and it ruins the game for them.

Thats a neat way to play. I'll also give that a try.

I think I'm going to run a game were

1. AO can put gates were he wants

2. Control all the monsters on the board. Still randomly draw monsters from cups.

3. AO must always put clue on board/non-gate area.

I'll start here and see what happens. I'll keep you all posted on the outcome.

romfox said:

Again, you need to add in the rule that the AO can't open gates on investigators, at the very least (otherwise you'll be able to constantly delay investigators for 3 turns).

EvilAmarant7x said:

Heh... It sounds like you were going for more of an RPGing feel with this :') which sounds fun, but personally I'd want a competitive strategy game if I were playing a redesign to my liking (I'm more into strategy games than RPGs).

How about this. I can only put a gate on a charactor if the Mythos card places it on a charactor. If the gate does not open on a charactor from the mythos card then I can not put a gate on a charactor.

romfox said:

Sounds fine. I think I already suggested that ;') There is of course an alternative way of doing it (but it would require a large number of players game) where all the players pop into locations for clue tokens simultaneously (so only one of them could get sucked up). It'd still be... Awkward to manage, at best.