I was wondering if any GMs allow a player to use a Destiny Point to activate a Talent available to them, that they have not yet purchased? The way I see it, it is much like them using a DP to narratively change a scene. I don't see it being overpowered too much, due to the DP cost.

Example: A Colonist Doctor stumbles into a medical facility with a heavily wounded party member. She sees a Bacta Tank in the corner and decides to put the wounded PC in there. She hasn't had the opportunity to purchase "Bacta Specialist" yet with her XP, so she flips a Destiny Point to activate it, allowing the wounded PC to heal an additional Wound from the Bacta Tank

Is this already covered in RAW? Do others allow this? Who thinks it may be overpowered?

Actually there are some optional rules on page 74 of Keeping the Peace called Learning as You Go .

36 minutes ago, Andreievitch said:

I was wondering if any GMs allow a player to use a Destiny Point to activate a Talent available to them, that they have not yet purchased? The way I see it, it is much like them using a DP to narratively change a scene. I don't see it being overpowered too much, due to the DP cost.

Example: A Colonist Doctor stumbles into a medical facility with a heavily wounded party member. She sees a Bacta Tank in the corner and decides to put the wounded PC in there. She hasn't had the opportunity to purchase "Bacta Specialist" yet with her XP, so she flips a Destiny Point to activate it, allowing the wounded PC to heal an additional Wound from the Bacta Tank

Is this already covered in RAW? Do others allow this? Who thinks it may be overpowered?

Maybe, but the deal would be when she gets xp at the end of the session it has to be spent on that Talent.

21 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually there are some optional rules on page 74 of Keeping the Peace called Learning as You Go .

Mmm. I don't have that book, so I might sneak into my FLGS and have a look at it. Does it cost a Destiny Point?

I just had a look at it, and it seems one of the options is exactly what I am suggesting. Bingo, RAW approved!

There are some other good options too. I will keep these in mind. It worth a look for other GMs too if you are thinking of something along those lines.

Thanks @Tramp Graphics for pointing it out.

13 hours ago, Andreievitch said:

Mmm. I don't have that book, so I might sneak into my FLGS and have a look at it. Does it cost a Destiny Point?

That is one is several suggestions, yes. The rules are for using skills/talents/Force powers you're currently learning and have made a partial payment in XP on, (as part of the adventure, and working with the GM), and is something the GM can use as a thematic option, and can be done during a session or after. The suggested restrictions include:

• Every time the character uses the partially learned ability one difficulaty die automatically gets upgraded to a challenge die,
• PC must spend a Destiny Point to use the ability
• PC gains double the Conflict for using DSPs for partially learned Force Powers (or a partially learned upgrade)
• PC suffers 2 Strain for failure and 2 Strain for every Threat.
• PC must spend Destiny to Commit a Force Die while using a partially learned abilityand another for every round said die is committed.

It should also be noted, that Learning As You Go also allows the GM to determine how certain XP he is giving out is spent. So, if, as in the example of "Mastering a Lightsaber Technique" (KtP page 73-74), your character is trying to learn the Lightsaber Skill, (or a talent for the Lightsaber), as part of the adventure, the GM can assign your character a certain amount of XP to spend as a partial payment on the skill, talent, or Force Power in question, and can later require that a certain amount of XP you earn later be spent on that skill, talent, Force Power until it is fully paid off, and only one Skill, Talent or Force Power can be partially paid for at any one time.

Depending on the talent, I'm ok with it, without even any commitment to purchase. Generally I'd say no to a talent that just provides a boost or similar. I wouldn't let one of my players use a DP just to add a rank of Second Wind or something. But if they wanted to pick something thematic (and cinematic) that they don't already have, I'd be fully on board. For example, if a mechanic in the party wanted to use Faulty Motivator without having the talent, I'd allow him to flip a DP and try it out.

Similarly, I already let players flip DPs to use more extreme versions of force powers. Like Rey and all the rocks at the end of TLJ, or Luke and his light-year-ranged illusion, and so on.

Thanks for that info.

I mainly asked this as I am about to run the AoR adventure Friends Like These. One of the PCs has just started Sapper, but only progressed with a couple of the talents. I realized there are Talents further down the tree that would be really helpful in building defenses for the final battle. I didn't want to delay the game for him to gain the talents, but I was looking for a way he could use them still, at a cost.

The above is perfect. I will allow it, but stress that using any of these Talents will mean he needs to dedicate XP at the end to spend on that tree.

I like these rules very much

Just now, Andreievitch said:

Thanks for that info.

I mainly asked this as I am about to run the AoR adventure Friends Like These. One of the PCs has just started Sapper, but only progressed with a couple of the talents. I realized there are Talents further down the tree that would be really helpful in building defenses for the final battle. I didn't want to delay the game for him to gain the talents, but I was looking for a way he could use them still, at a cost.

The above is perfect. I will allow it, but stress that using any of these Talents will mean he needs to dedicate XP at the end to spend on that tree.

I like these rules very much

One thing to remember is that the Learn as You Go rules do not allow you to purchase talents that you don't meet the prerequisites for. So, you can't go putting XP into a bottom tier talent, if all you have are upper tier talents.

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

One thing to remember is that the Learn as You Go rules do not allow you to purchase talents that you don't meet the prerequisites for. So, you can't go putting XP into a bottom tier talent, if all you have are upper tier talents.

I am not actually going to play it that way. If they want to use a bottom tier, then I will let them, prob at a cost of a DP and strain or time or upgraded difficulty.

The way I will use it is I will allow them to use a lower tier talent, at the costs described, and then the XP will need to go to that tree. I am not too concerned that it needs to go on the path to the talent used, as I think this will allow access to the talents in the tree without them need to buy ALL of them.

I like diversification in characters and their abilities, and I believe that the story should take precedence over the rules. My players (thankfully) aren't rules monkeys either. They appreciate the flexibility.

All in the name of fun!

No Signature Abilities though, of course.

Hate to be a bummer but that would get a big NO from me.

On 7/3/2018 at 9:50 PM, Andreievitch said:

I am not actually going to play it that way. If they want to use a bottom tier, then I will let them, prob at a cost of a DP and strain or time or upgraded difficulty.

The way I will use it is I will allow them to use a lower tier talent, at the costs described, and then the XP will need to go to that tree. I am not too concerned that it needs to go on the path to the talent used, as I think this will allow access to the talents in the tree without them need to buy ALL of them.

I like diversification in characters and their abilities, and I believe that the story should take precedence over the rules. My players (thankfully) aren't rules monkeys either. They appreciate the flexibility.

All in the name of fun!

No Signature Abilities though, of course.

14 hours ago, Shaheed the Gand said:

Hate to be a bummer but that would get a big NO from me.

I agree. IF they want access to a talent that they don't even meet the prerequisites for, they should follow the Battle Scars rules from Forged in Battle .

7 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I agree. IF they want access to a talent that they don't even meet the prerequisites for, they should follow the Battle Scars rules from Forged in Battle . 

I think you have missed my point. Battle Scars allows Talent as a result of a crit, and the Talent may not even be part of the tree they are in.

I am referring to a Talent that IS in the tree they are working on, but just a lower tier. As per my earlier example:

On 7/3/2018 at 12:00 PM, Andreievitch said:

Example: A Colonist Doctor stumbles into a medical facility with a heavily wounded party member. She sees a Bacta Tank in the corner and decides to put the wounded PC in there. She hasn't had the opportunity to purchase "Bacta Specialist" yet with her XP, so she flips a Destiny Point to activate it, allowing the wounded PC to heal an additional Wound from the Bacta Tank 

All go if you want to play that it can only be the next Talent available on their current tree. I am happy to be more flexible considering the cost.

For example: the cost for the Doctor mentioned above to use "Bacta Specialist" would most likely cost 1 Destiny Point + an upgrade on the Medical skill check difficulty + some Strain. ALSO, they will need to spend XP after the game on the next Talent that gets them moving towards Bacta Specialist.

The cost seems appropriate to me, and it will add nicely to the game's narrative.

Yeah sure, if it works for your Tables narrative; go for it! Just as said, he would have to go down the line and get the talents as a trade off.

Though sometimes having them desperately want something and not letting them fluff it is just as strong a character motivator; "These people all died because I wasn't educated enough to build the defences they need! e.c.t. That can motivate further development to avoid that endpoint again.

14 hours ago, Andreievitch said:

I think you have missed my point. Battle Scars allows Talent as a result of a crit, and the Talent may not even be part of the tree they are in.

I am referring to a Talent that IS in the tree they are working on, but just a lower tier. As per my earlier example:

All go if you want to play that it can only be the next Talent available on their current tree. I am happy to be more flexible considering the cost.

For example: the cost for the Doctor mentioned above to use "Bacta Specialist" would most likely cost 1 Destiny Point + an upgrade on the Medical skill check difficulty + some Strain. ALSO, they will need to spend XP after the game on the next Talent that gets them moving towards Bacta Specialist.

The cost seems appropriate to me, and it will add nicely to the game's narrative.

No, I didn't miss your point. I simply find it too game-breaking for this system and completely against the rules of the game as it is designed. As such, I would never allow it. The only way I would ever allow anyone to take a talent that he or she has yet to meet the prerequisites for--whether it's in his or her specialization or not--is through a Battle Scar. If he or she does meet the prerequisites then, if it fits the story , I might allow the Pay as You Go option.

On 7/7/2018 at 5:27 AM, Tramp Graphics said:

No, I didn't miss your point. I simply find it too game-breaking for this system and completely against the rules of the game as it is designed. As such, I would never allow it. The only way I would ever allow anyone to take a talent that he or she has yet to meet the prerequisites for--whether it's in his or her specialization or not--is through a Battle Scar. If he or she does meet the prerequisites then, if it fits the story , I might allow the Pay as You Go option.

So much bold .

I hardly find it game breaking, especially given the costs I have mentioned. Also, RAW "Learning As You Go" doesn't actually say it needs to be the NEXT talent on your tree. It says "Under this model, the GM can allow a player to pay a portion of the cost to a skill rank, talent, or Force power basic power or upgrade, even if the PC has insufficient XP to buy it."

It the PC is trying to use a Talent that is 2 or 3 steps away from where they currently sit on a tree then RAW doesn't say they can't use it, it says the GM would "require that the player pay the deficit XP as soon as the PC has it available..."

Just say it is a 3rd tier (15xp) Talent they are wanting to invoke "Learning As You Go" so they can use it, and they only have the top tier talent so far. At the end of of the game they are awarded 15xp. I would insist they take the 2nd tier (10xp) talent that lead to the "Learning As You Go" talent they used, bank the extra 5xp towards the tier 3 for new time, and I would be happy with that.

Somewhere I read the example of Luke in ESB hanging from the Wampa cave using a Force power he didn't have to pull the lightsaber to him. Or even Rey in FA using the Force to mind trick the Trooper to escape. All good examples where they probably had to jump a few tiers to use the talent/Force power.

Yes, but the rules of the game system require that a character meet all of the prerequisites before they can purchase any talent within his or her specialization. That means that there must be a connection line directly connecting the talent you want to purchase and a talent you already have. The only exception to this rule is covered by the optional Battle Scars rules. The Learn as You Go rules do not circumvent or override these rules.

47 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, but the rules of the game system require that a character meet all of the prerequisites before they can purchase any talent within his or her specialization.

But surely "Learning As You Go" is the expectation to that rule? In my view that is the entire point of this side bar?

I know you will disagree, so I think we will have to agree to disagree. My view on how it will be playing in my game is as I see it, and you can play it as you see it.

33 minutes ago, Andreievitch said:

But surely "Learning As You Go" is the expectation to that rule? In my view that is the entire point of this side bar?

I know you will disagree, so I think we will have to agree to disagree. My view on how it will be playing in my game is as I see it, and you can play it as you see it.

No, it isn’t. The Learn as You Go rules are simply a means for the GM to provide a PC with the opportunity to use an ability he or she hasn’t yet fully paid the XP for. It does not allow the PC to purchase something the character doesn’t even meet the prerequisites for. For instance, if you want to use aForce power upgrade you haven’t fully paid for, you still need the base power and any prerequisite upgrades. By RAW , there is nothing in the Learn as You Go rules which changes this.

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, it isn’t. The Learn as You Go rules are simply a means for the GM to provide a PC with the opportunity to use an ability he or she hasn’t yet fully paid the XP for.

So we agree on that point then.

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It does not allow the PC to purchase something the character doesn’t even meet the prerequisites for  .  For instance, if you want to use aForce power upgrade you haven’t fully paid for, you still need the base power and any prerequisite upgrades.

I never said that. See my example again. I stated they would still have to pay for the prerequisite talents. I didn't say they can purchase the Talent our of order, without the prerequisite talents, only that they can use such a talent, at a cost, and MUST spend the XP heading towards the talent they used.

20 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

...you still need the base power and any prerequisite upgrades. By RAW , there is nothing in the Learn as You Go rules which change  s this.  

There is no mention of this in Learning As You Go RAW. It doesn't specifically point out that you can only use a Talent that you already meet the prerequisite for. In fact, it says "even if the PC has insufficient XP to buy it fully".

Yes, but it doesn’t allow you to purchase said talent if you don’t already have the talents that preceded it in the talent tree. For example, if I play a Soresu Defender, and I want to use the Soresu Technique talent but I haven’t purchased it yet. With the Learn as You Go rules I can make a partial payment and use the talent with certain restrictions. However, I can only do that if I have already purchased the top tier first column Parry talent. For a more extreme example from the same spec is if I want to use the bottom tier Supreme Parry talent. That talent requires me to have already purchased the third tier Parry talent or the Dedication talent before I can even partially purchase Supreme Parry. So no matter what, you still have to purchase the talents that preceded the talent you want to use through Learn as You Go. The rule as written does not allow you to skip those preceding talents. All the rule does is allow you to use a skill, talent or Force power without paying the full XP cost for that one ability.

4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The rule as written does not allow you to skip those preceding talents. All the rule does is allow you to use a skill, talent or Force power without paying the full XP cost for that one ability.

I disagree, as it does not mention that anywhere. Your interpretation reads between the lines, it is not a literal account of the wording of Learn As You Go.

I am not going to discuss anymore, as I GM my game, and I know the players will appreciate my ruling as it will add to some cinematic excitement, at a cool narrative cost.

However, I would like to thank you @Tramp Graphics for pointing out Learn As You Go. It certainly answered my question.

For what it's worth, I think it seems like a perfectly solid idea. Depending on the type of players you have, it certainly doesn't seem game-breaking to me.

Have fun.

16 hours ago, Andreievitch said:

I disagree, as it does not mention that anywhere. Your interpretation reads between the lines, it is not a literal account of the wording of Learn As You Go.

I am not going to discuss anymore, as I GM my game, and I know the players will appreciate my ruling as it will add to some cinematic excitement, at a cool narrative cost.

However, I would like to thank you @Tramp Graphics for pointing out Learn As You Go. It certainly answered my question.

IF the Learn as You Go rules allowed you to skip over other talents in a tree, They would have explicitly said so . And they rules do not do so . The only optional rules that allows a PC to purchase a talent that he does not meet the prerequisites for are the Battle Scars rules. All the Learn as You Go rules allow is the limited use of a skill, talent, Force Power (or an upgrade thereof) without paying the full XP for it. It does not allow anything else beyond that. It does not allow you to take a talent you do not otherwise meet the prerequisites for. This isn't a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. This is the way the rules are written. The Learn as You Go rules are very limited and restricted in what they allow. They allow you to make a partial payment on a singe rank in a single skill, a single talent that you meet the prerequisites for, a single Force Power, or a single upgrade for a single Force Power. They do not allow you to partially purchase something you do not otherwise qualify for.

Once again, you are talking through interpretation, not quoting the wording, and your bold words are all opinion, with no referencing back to the wording, so quite the flawed argument.

My Insurance background says to me that if it not implicitly pointed out in the wording, then interpretation, it opens itself to (as Yoda may say)

I have asked the Devs for their feedback. I will play as I see it though.