Hey guys!

So this is more me just trying to prevent a future issue. I am a big fan of the heroic sacrifice of NPCs, and I don't often pull out that card, but when I do I like it to be meaningful. Last session, I was running Onslaught at Arda I and the moment came where the Empire finally breach Arda base, killing the soldier whose job it was to sabotage the generators and with his dying breath he gave the job to my PCs...

Until the Guardian stepped in with force heal mastery to PRAISE BE HIM and raise this soldier back from the dead. It didn't quite ruin my plans, but it certainly get my dander up especially since he went from Basic Power to Mastery instantly because he had banked up so much XP and dropped it entirely in one go...

This does kind of ruin any kind of meaningful sacrifice I have to make in the story due to the character being 'too good' if you know what I mean. There's being a paragon and all that, but then there's thinking you can save everyone.

I guess what I am asking for are ways to prevent this if I want a meaningful sacrifice moment. I was fine with the soldier because it was a pretty awesome thing to do and could easily be adapted. I'm just thinking ahead...

It probably doesn't work so well with disintegrations, sarlaac pits, and the many maladies the void of space offers. Also, situations where the body can't be recovered or reached.

Or maybe he literally can't save everyone, where there's too many people for him to bring back that way? Perhaps the ones that aren't revived are conveniently the ones relevant to that plot point when needed. Or maybe the party arrive too late to save them that way.

If it happens once or twice, oh well. If it becomes a pattern? Let me tell you a story—

Back around 1988/89, the first original Star Trek: The Next Generation novel was released. In Peter David’s Strike Zone , a friend of Wesley Crusher was diagnosed with a terminal illness. Choosing to believe his own press as the boy wonder, Wesley vowed to find a cure. He gave himself a nervous breakdown in the process, and succeeded.

Only to have his friend jump in front of a phaser blast and sacrifice his life to protect another before Wesley could even give him the news.

What I’m suggesting is, let them be the heroes...save the NPCs. Then the NPC faces death when the players can’t do anything about it.

If you really need the sacrifice to happen just make sure the PC's are "out of reach". Have them hear it over com link, see them across a ravine, up on a catwalk, etc.

I'm going to go with a bit of a heavy-handed response to the OP, here. And forgive me if my response is a bit...much. Exactly how much of that npc soldier was left after he was hit? Yeah, Heal may be the be-all, end-all to healing, but if the wounded is missing various portions of their anatomy, it may not do as much as the player thinks.

16 hours ago, Ebak said:

It didn't quite ruin my plans, but it certainly get my dander up especially since he went from Basic Power to Mastery instantly because he had banked up so much XP and dropped it entirely in one go...

Sounds like this is the real problem. I generally don't allow that kind of thing, there needs to be a narrative for any skill/talent/power progress. (On the flip side, I do allow a "pre-commitment" of XP if a new power/upgrade is narratively interesting, but that's a different matter.) This game is difficult enough to scale, the GM should at least have a reasonable expectation of what the PCs are capable of. I generally don't allow more banking than is required to buy a specific upgrade.

16 hours ago, Ebak said:

Until the Guardian stepped in with force heal mastery to PRAISE BE HIM and raise this soldier back from the dead.

...and you don't have to allow these things. One of my biggest issues with players comes when I'm trying do a cinematic moment, and they interrupt with a mechanical approach. Every movie and show has a bit of dialogue as the villain monologues, or shows some action that the protagonists are helpless do act upon. In "real life" this would never happen, but it's a staple of any fiction. And yet players seem to think they can interrupt this with "I pull my blaster and shoot him while he's talking."

Don't fall into this trap by allowing it. Just say no, call it a "cinematic moment" or whatever you need, and make it clear this is all part of the NPC's turn. In this case, maybe it was still the NPC's turn, and his "Action" was deliver the mission and die.

One last consideration, but this is based on my own opinions about Jedi and the Force, so YMMV. The purpose of the Jedi is to do the will of the Force. I've introduced the occasional "search your feelings" moment into my games, which is usually a Discipline check (of varying difficulties) to give the PC a chance to be guided by the Force, which, in my Star Wars universe, is the "right path". The PC is not bound to adhere to the results, not to mention that the "right path" is often the more difficult one, but it can help guide the player if they want their PC to "follow the Force". I will say I use this sparingly, and I'm not ham-handed about it, so far it's worked pretty well.

41 minutes ago, whafrog said:

...and you don't have to allow these things. One of my biggest issues with players comes when I'm trying do a cinematic moment, and they interrupt with a mechanical approach. Every movie and show has a bit of dialogue as the villain monologues, or shows some action that the protagonists are helpless do act upon. In "real life" this would never happen, but it's a staple of any fiction. And yet players seem to think they can interrupt this with "I pull my blaster and shoot him while he's talking."

I can't help it... this reminds me exactly of this:

https://youtu.be/oSynJyq2RRo?t=1229

I'm in agreement with whafrog. In my opinion Heal isn't Raise Dead nor should it be played as such, if it was then the Emperor is going to really want a one on one chat with your Guardian...

In any case, if you say your NPC is giving his dying words then they're already dead because they have exceeded their Wound Threshold and unlike PCs they die when they hit their Wound Threshold and Heal isn't going to help the dead. Sure, you can as the GM choose to have them not die but it's your choice not the Player's, unless they discovered how Darth Plagueis figured it out (see above remark).

Correction: I missed that the Mastery Level of Heal can "pulled the target back from the brink of death, not actually bringing them back to life." SO yes you can do this but it's more a resuscitation rather than a resurrection .

As for the problem of going from Basic to Mastery to quickly in any Skill, Talent or Power, I have a House Rule that you can only go up one Rank in a Skill or one row in a Talent or Power Tree between sessions (you can choose multiple Talents or Upgrades in the same Row just only one row down). My players see the fairness/logic in this and have no problems with this rule. This also helps keep Players from sitting on their PC's EXP too long.

47 minutes ago, FuriousGreg said:

I'm in agreement with whafrog. In my opinion Heal isn't Raise Dead nor should it be played as such, if it was then the Emperor is going to really want a one on one chat with your Guardian...

In any case, if you say your NPC is giving his last dying words then they're already dead because they have exceeded their Wound Threshold and unlike PCs they die when they hit their Wound Threshold and Heal isn't going to help the dead. Sure, you can as the GM choose to have them not die but it's your choice not the Player's, unless they discovered how Darth Plagueis figured it out (see above remark).

As for the problem of going from Basic to Mastery to quickly in any Skill, Talent or Power, I have a House Rule that you can only go up one Rank in a Skill or one row in a Talent or Power Tree between sessions (you can choose multiple Talents or Upgrades in the same Row just only one row up). My players see the fairness/logic in this and have no problems with this rule. This also helps keep Players from sitting on their PC's EXP too long.

Mastery level of Heal/Harm actually does let you do that. If you're using light side then you can revert the Dead crit or any similar thing that pushed them over the edge. You're not raising them from the dead though, just healing whatever lethal damage they have suffered. If you're using Harm, then you can use the life force of someone you kill with the Harm power to actually bring someone back from the actual dead if they died during the encounter. Of course doing so brings on quite a bit of conflict, but you can do it. There is also an alchemical potion you can use for the same effect.

I would say using the power in the way the OP described it kind of takes away from it though. It's supposed to be an utter perversion of nature or a miracle, not something used for every death, tragic though they might be. This gives a possible in for a slide to the Dark Side for the guardian though, partly through the temptation to save everyone, after all that's what made Anakin fall. There is also another aspect of it, now other rebel personal might wish for the same treatment, and start feeling resentful whenever one of them actually dies during a mission. After all, shouldn't the prescient Jedi have been there to get the fallen back up again? Others might hear of the story as well and mob the "Saviour" to get a miraculous touch that will restore withered limbs to life or heal close ones, with people growing angry and resentful if he puts his own wishes over their needs. After all their need is great, why would anything he wishes to do be more important than their needs?

35 minutes ago, Darth Revenant said:

Mastery level of Heal/Harm actually does let you do that. If you're using light side then you can revert the Dead crit or any similar thing that pushed them over the edge.

Thanks for pointing that out, I totally missed it (in my defense none of my Players have PCs with that level of the power).

2 hours ago, panpolyqueergeek said:

I can't help it... this reminds me exactly of this:

https://youtu.be/oSynJyq2RRo?t=1229

Literally thought of the same thing. And is my Default any time I think about the "villain's speech"

I'm pretty sure the FATE and FUDGE RPGs (FFGSW draws a bit from both these games) have a Monologue rule that essentially all actions are suspended when the BBG or a Hero wants to give their final speech.

Ebak: It sounds like you indicated the player spent the XP in the middle of an encounter to gain Healing Mastery - is that correct?

I think a lot of problems can be avoided be limiting XP expenditures to either between sessions, or during an extended character downtime segment added for that purpose. I would definitely disallow XP being spent in the middle of combat.

One point that hasn't been addressed: did the Guardian actually bring a dying man back from the very edge of death, specifically to allow him to commit suicide so that the Guardian could live? If I'm interpreting what you wrote correctly . . . I don't even know if the Morality system is designed to handle Conflict of an appropriate magnitude.

I'm going to be contrary to most of the other posts here, but other than the possible issue of the mass XP spend - and maybe not even that, considering that it gets to happen once under this circumstance - I don't actually see the problem here. So the NPC didn't get a moment of drama. One of the PCs did, and they're the stars of the show.

10 minutes ago, Garran said:

So the NPC didn't get a moment of drama. One of the PCs did, and they're the stars of the show.

True, but the GM is also a "player" and their enjoyment of the game/drama matters as well. I don't look at GMing as "providing a service", but I understand that some do.

16 hours ago, Pyremius said:

Ebak: It sounds like you indicated the player spent the XP in the middle of an encounter to gain Healing Mastery - is that correct?

I think a lot of problems can be avoided be limiting XP expenditures to either between sessions, or during an extended character downtime segment added for that purpose. I would definitely disallow XP being spent in the middle of combat.

One point that hasn't been addressed: did the Guardian actually bring a dying man back from the very edge of death, specifically to allow him to commit suicide so that the Guardian could live? If I'm interpreting what you wrote correctly . . . I don't even know if the Morality system is designed to handle Conflict of an appropriate magnitude.

They did not drop the XP in the middle of combat or a session. They just dropped a tonne of XP in one go between sessions to gain Heal/Harm and jump all the way to Mastery.

8 hours ago, Garran said:

I'm going to be contrary to most of the other posts here, but other than the possible issue of the mass XP spend - and maybe not even that, considering that it gets to happen once under this circumstance - I don't actually see the problem here. So the NPC didn't get a moment of drama. One of the PCs did, and they're the stars of the show.

You are not wrong, but as @panpolyqueergeek somewhat alluded to. The point was to provide a dramatic moment for the characters and the horrors of their base being found and assaulted. People die but the mission goes on. It’s just a fact of the message the scene was to convey and the PC just decided to big nope on it. It wasn’t even a big important character, it was a minion. It’s not like this was the base leader or a high ranking alliance diplomat. This was just a soldier.

I know you don’t want to railroad the players, but sometimes you want a scene to carry a dramatic weight and the PCs actions did undermine it and yes, that does impact my enjoyment.

2 hours ago, Ebak said:

I know you don’t want to railroad the players, but sometimes you want a scene to carry a dramatic weight and the PCs actions did undermine it and yes, that does impact my enjoyment.

It's not railroading to just say it was the NPC's last act and nothing could be done.

What is the player's Force rating? It requires 4 Force points to be able to use that upgrade, making it very difficult without a high Force rating, and even then probably having to pull on the dark side to succeed. He also only gets one chance to use it, so he can't just keep trying if it doesn't work the first time, and if more than one character dies in a session, only one gets to potentially be saved. He really can't save everyone.

Without having actually been at your table, this actually sounds like something I would love to happen at mine. As you said, this wasn't even an important character. Just a minion. But that didn't stop the Guardian from pulling on the power of the Force to do something he can only do with great difficulty and only so often by bringing the character back from the brink of death. Compassion for one mere soldier who nearly gave his life to fight against tyranny. Sounds like a character defining moment.

12 hours ago, Ebak said:

It  wasn’t even a big important character, it was a minion. It’s not like this was the base leader or a high ranking alliance diplomat. This was just a soldier.

This speaks to your player's empathy, and it's actually refreshing to hear about players that treat EVERY NPC like a real person, rather than an expendable/disposable cardboard cut-out or set dressing. My D&D group gave me quite a challenge when they asked the name of every guard they came across and were genuinely interested in who they were as people.

I think that generally speaking; PC's should be at least up front about how they are spending their XP so that the GM is aware roughly of their capabilities. Going from no heal to full heal would be, quite frankly, jarring to movie goers and likely as jarring to the audience. I don't GM, but as a GM I would generally discourage "mega spends" unless it is the part of a large time jump, I really wouldn't like players pulling stuff out of nowhere when the pressure of running a session is relatively high.

That being said I don't really have a huge problem with this because since this is a golden opportunity. The guy could offer huge moral boosts by bringing people back from the brink and gain a legendary reputation, it's this reputation that could really begin to impose pressure on the person themselves. They healed one guy, having other people come up as a sort of "roll a couple of checks" to also be healed. Success might earn some duty points as the guy becomes almost like a sort of saint figure. Of course, there is the real pressure of living up to that expectation.

I fully agree with @Garran . Yes, the GM's narrative arc is nice and dramatic scenes are fun when you pull them off, but ultimately, it's the story of the players. In the end, their characters are the ones that matter and if you go as heavy-handed as @whafrog suggests, the moment might easily shift from "That time we saw war was **** and there was nothing we could do" to "that time when there was nothing we could do because the GM forbid me from doing something that was both fitting in-character and pretty cool out of character so one of his goons could have the spotlight". There are players who don't mind some cutscenes to their game, but you'd better make sure yours are among them before springing something like that on them.

Wanting an NPC to die without the players being able to intervene is a problem about as old as Cure Light Wounds. The classic solution is putting the NPC somewhere the PCs can't reach in time - behind a chasm, beyond a force field, at the other side of a radio connection. Alternatively, let the players succeed - in many cases, the story changes less than one would assume, particularly if the NPC is still in pretty bad shape (Heal removes only the killing critical, not the rest of the damage, and other uses of heal can be blocked if the target has already used enough stimpacks). And then there's the fact that you really can't save everyone – the Heal Mastery can be used only once per session. If two (preferably named and known) NPCs die (ideally at the same time for extra angst), the Guardian can save exactly one of them.

The other lesson is of course to always know what your PCs are capable of and have them notify you when their abilities change in a dramatic way.

9 minutes ago, Cifer said:

heavy-handed as @whafrog suggests

Really? That's heavy-handed? Pretty much anything goes in my games (though thankfully I have a pretty mature group of players, so I don't have to deal with murder hobos and the like), is it too much to ask for a cinematic moment on occasion?

They got a cinematic moment. Just not the one they expected.

I will preface this by saying you might not feel this is appropriate to the tone you have set at your table either for Starwars or in general, so this may not work for your table.

But you can describe the wounds of the NPC in more gruesome detail than you might normally just to hit home the "beyond hope of saving aspect". Such that the wounds are so grievous that all the players can do is maybe give a stimpack to dull the pain, but the NPC has time to cough out his final words.

ie: Torso cut in half, Fire/blast melted half of his face and body. Plasma hit straight through the chest, etc.

It's a completely non-issue in the Movies because of their ratings, people get shot and they just go down. But in a few Expanded universe books I have read they often go into detail about the effects of getting hit with a hot blast of plasma, and burning right through someone's armor and then melting their flesh, as well as how disruptors work.

I Run my game for a mature group so i can get away with a darker tone in my campaign. (My players especially enjoy describing deaths from crits). Plus this is Edge of the Empire after all, Gotta get in that grit!