"Perhaps the meddling of Blanks somewhere far, far down the line is the reason divination is uncertain in the first place? Little ripples moving through the warp, making different futures possible... "

Here's the problem with that theory besides the complete lack of basis in the fluff; everything is ultimately affected and essentially 'tainted' by seminal events and chains of causality the Warp can't perceive, which means that everything is wildly uncertain, and the Warp fails to be at all useful as a predictive engine. Taking Praetus' logic to its ultimate conclusion, nothing the Blank does or is ultimately responsible for in terms of causation can ever be accounted for; this doesn't result in 'little ripples that make different futures possible' it results in full blown impenetrable chaos that invalidates Divination.

Lasers said:

Necrozius said:

Woo I just picked up my copy of Ascension, so I can answer my own question.

On page 45, regarding the Effects of Transitioning into a Vindicare Assassin: "You permanently lose one Fate Point. This is subtracted after you receive your additional Fate Points for becoming a Throne Agent (see page 10)".

So that's something, I guess.

@Necrozius

Woo I just picked up my copy of Ascension, so I can answer my own question.

On page 45, regarding the Effects of Transitioning into a Vindicare Assassin: "You permanently lose one Fate Point. This is subtracted after you receive your additional Fate Points for becoming a Throne Agent (see page 10)".

So that's something, I guess.

There's also the point that a Vindicare will generally have his own abilities and some specialist gear to rely on. That's it. If there's any problem that can't somehow be considered a nail, his hammer will be pretty useless - whereas the Inquisitor and his buddies happen to have whole toolboxes of underlings and influence at their disposal.

"Going first is reliant on having warning. Having warning is reliant on seeing the enemy coming. Seeing the enemy coming... well, Officio Assassins in general are excellent at not being seen before they attack. Culexus Assassins in particular are (according to the background which would define their rules) experts and metaphysically suited to not being seen by psyker opponents who might otherwise divine the intervention of a non-Pariah psyker (it's not just their Pariah nature that conceals them, either; their equipment works to bolster and enhance this effect further).

Think of it this way: we know by the background and by other examples of their representation what a Culexus is, and what one should be capable of. We have examples of powerful psykers - exactly the sort of target a Culexus exists to eliminate - and it stands to reason then, that a Culexus should be designed in rules terms to be able to counter the things that a Psyker might do to overcome other Assassins (because, if you didn't need a specialist psyker-hunting superassassin to do the job, then you'd not bother using a Culexus)."

I'll limit my response to this as it's the main point.

First of all, Psykers are amongst the best careers in the game for 'seeing the enemy coming', if not the best. Even via their own mundane senses.

Further, while the Culexus may be designed to counter Psykers, they are still only mortal men and women, albeit well equipped men and women, versus opponents that can be powerful enough to snap battle Titans in half with ease, lay whole worlds and armies to waste, and reduce Lords of Change to their constituent atoms, which certainly describes Ascended Psykers at the end of their career (particularly Inquisitor Psykers). Though they should be designed to counter Psykers, it should also be noted that they are subject to some very hard limits, which makes a mano a mano fight with a sufficiently powerful Psyker at best risky, and not necessarily always to their advantage. I repeat; they are mortals hunting gods and success is by no means guaranteed.

Lasers said:

Not just mortal men and women. Mortal men and women with an extreme version of a rare genetic quirk which renders them utterly immune to the manipulating influence of the warp and those who wield it. These aren't common-or-garden blanks; they are to Untouchables what Alpha-class psykers are to the rest of psyker-kind. They're equipped with devices that enhance and develop their nature further, making them virtually imperceptable by any methods, not just psychic, their presence capable of addling the minds of even those not sensitive to their soulless nature. Their weapons turn the power of a psyker against them, becoming more and more effective the more potent their prey. Their mere touch is utter agony to those gifted with psychic powers, the psychic equivalent of brushing up against a black hole.

Lasers said:

Mortals hunting gods they may be, but that is the job description. They hunt Sorcerers of Chaos and Eldar Farseers and Daemon Princes and the deadliest of rogue witches - beings who by all rights stand side-by-side with a Rank 16 Primaris in terms of skill, insight, power or any combination of the three. Eldar Farseers in particular are renowned for the accuracy and clarity of their prophecy - they're far more capable diviners than any human can ever hope to be, by merit of being part of a species that is innately and potently psychic, which has psychic traditions that predate human history, and by being thousands of years old and possessed of a level of intellectual and emotional focus that a human being cannot match.

Farseers, whose visions and decisions cause the death of worlds and the genocide of billions, whose clarity of foresight is unmatched by any other mortal being... and they're part of the Culexus' job description.

The Imperium has plenty of methods for removing petty witches and other rogue psykers from their midst. They employ Sanctioned Psykers and Librarians and the like to protect from and counter the efforts of the majority of enemy psykers on the battlefield. The Culexus doesn't exist just to kill such meagre adversaries - afterall, like all Officio Assassins, it requires a majority vote of the Senatorium Imperialis to sanction the deployment of even one of their number, so they are not to be wasted on minor targets - they exist to bring down big threats, psykers who can't be brought down by any more abundant means the Imperium possesses.

I'm not saying that it's a foregone conclusion one way or another... but to dismiss a Culexus against a Rank 16 Primaris is pushing it, as that sort of insanely potent psyker is exactly the kind of thing a Culexus exists to kill.

I think that your missing the point that if there was a rogue alpha level psker out there that the Imperium wanted dead, it wouldnt be just one Assassin (culexus/vindicare, whatever), it would be a whole kill-team of them. Many of them equipped with null fields and other very specific anti psyker equipment or being untouchables themselves. Fair enough the Pskyer may see some of them coming, may take some of them down but all it really takes is one vindicare shot or one close assault by any one of the others and you have a dead psyker...

S.K.

No One Here....I love your posts on this topic.

Makes me think of statting up some Culexis fun for my own groups. Time to dig up some fluff....

Hit up the Lex first and got this lovely little bit.

The Culexus Temple is one of the temples of the Officio Assassinorum. The motto of the temple is: That which is unknown and unseen always commands the greatest fear. This motto is quite appropriate as Psykers, their exclusive targets, are unable to sense the Culexus Assassins, aka psyker-killers.

The Culexus Assassins are the most sinister, feared, and hated of all Imperial Assassins. They are null-entities in the warp, their unnatural lack of a presence inspiring even in non-psykers a sense of unease. To psykers their mere presence is terrifying, invoking panic. In the confusion caused by this fear, the assassin can move in on its target and eliminate them. To purely psychic entities like daemons, they are invisible.

The Culexus Assassins possess the "Pariah Gene", making them to all intents soulless, accounting for their having no warp-presence. This gene manifests itself very rarely, in a single individual among a billion, or more. This extreme rarity, coupled with the inevitable losses during training, makes the Culexus assassins the rarest of all Imperial assassins.

The location of the Culexus temple is a closely guarded secret, said to be located on a planet which orbits no sun, and which is beyond the reach of the Astronomican.

The Eldar, whose leaders are usually psychics, fear the Culexus greatly. Farseer Alladrios Kulcassian, of Craftworld Alaitoc coordinated a centuries-long effort to locate and to destroy this temple. Somehow he discovered the location and dispatched the Legacy of Eldanesh, a shadow-class cruiser. However, using his precognitive powers, he discovered to his amazement that the temple's destruction would lead to the Annihilation of Alaitoc. Choosing the lesser of two evils, he re-called the cruiser home.
Equipment

The Culexus Assassin slays his foe by using a deadly psychic blast directed through an ancient device known as an Animus Speculum. It is unknown how this device functions fully, but it is speculated that the warp energy separated from its targets by the null aura of the Culexus is held in this device and then unleashed. Indeed, the weapon becomes more and more potent when within the vicinity of psykers. The device fires bolts of negative psychic energy and drains the power of nearby psykers to bolster its power. Secondly, the Culexus carries an Etherium, a device that induce enormous distortion and confusion in all nearby enemies psychic or not, the fact that the enemy is already disconcerted by the soulless Culexus combined with the Etherium makes the Culexus impossible to target.

Culexus assassins also make use of psyk-out grenades, which are devastating to psykers, but do nothing to those without psychic potential. The grenades utilize a substance that is said to be a by-product of the constant workings of the Golden Throne itself.

Sorry between the OP Psyker and te yet to be statted Culexus, I put my money on the guy who's sole purpose is, to kill those Psyker god beings.

Alexis

*smiles*

@Solomon

Actually, one Culexus should be sufficient. For several to be brought out, you'd need pretty much a cabal of Farseers led by a Lord of Change assissting Abaddon himself.

Otherwise, what N0-1 said.

"I'm not saying that it's a foregone conclusion one way or another... but to dismiss a Culexus against a Rank 16 Primaris is pushing it, as that sort of insanely potent psyker is exactly the kind of thing a Culexus exists to kill. "

My argument is that the Culexus' success is most certainly not a foregone conclusion, and the incredible power of an Alpha Psyker, particularly a Telekine who can still quite easily kill and/or evade a Culexus should he detect it, are not to be summarily ignored. Again, while the Untouchable is someone essentially custom purposed and equipped to kill a god, their quarry is still exactly that, and because this is true, there is nothing sure fire or guaranteed about their ability to deal with one mano a mano (and this is why Solomon is right; true Alpha Psykers are incredible threats that are never to be given the benefit of underestimation).

Lasers said:

For the last number of pages all you have done Lasers, is argue that Psykers are the end all be all of power.

Then disallow them from your games, perfectly legit for you to do so. Or modify the rules to make them more tolerable to yourself. Perfectly legit for you to do so. CAPPING some of their powers is an easy way to do this. Or if you are a Psyker player and enjoy it, then...well I do not think that is the case as I have heard you refer to them as broken. Players relishing in their I win status, munchkins, rarely refer to themselves as broken, so logic tells me you are upset over the way they unbalance the game.

But after 3+ pages, nothing anyone has said has yielded anything from you other than effectively "Uh uh Psykers can do it better/ Psykers can kill them" at this point talking with you about them is futile. Mentioning even the one thing that in the TT (Which came from the RPG RT, evolved and grew and then in turn was used to design these games) that is designed completely and utterly to be their bane yields a "well they won't beat them if they take this do this and get this off" you are obviously locked into your firm belief psykers win.

And so without further adieu I am going to go find myself a nice old fashioned Vindicare hate thread to read. I know Vindicare hate is so Ascension release day.

*Chuckles*, and here even with my minor issues with a couple things I loved Ascension and love Psykers after some minor tweaks and tailoring and CAPPING.

Alexis

*smiles*

"Actually, your original argument is that the psyker would pretty much win 100% of the time because he is an undetectable god with super human senses that can find anyone who is hiding no matter what and always goes first. You were corrected and changed to the statement above, which honestly, still leaves a lot to be desired. First, we assume a regular run of the mill blank gives you a -10 on your thresholds, then, we up that by ohh, I don't know, 6 times because that seems about fair. Okay then, suddenly the alpha psyker is up sh*t creek without a paddle. Now, before you give me some speel about "well of course you can't win if the gm cheats." (I want to make it very clear that this is not cheating, this is how a culexus works according to the TT and the fluff, as Cailieg already stated. "

Oh please, do quote me where I 'evidently' stated that the psyker would "pretty much win 100% of the time because he is an undetectable god with super human senses, etc, etc..." I have merely demonstrated, and correctly at that, that the psyker's power as per the RAW allows him to effortlessly crush virtually anything thus far stated in the DH printed material (albeit on a purely mechanical level admittedly, but I leave it to the player not to be duped), while pointing out that presumed counters aren't as fool proof as some may think (also correctly). Quit being so petulant.

I know you love FFG (hey I do too, but as good as their devs are, they can screw up like anyone else), probably think they can do no wrong (I can make false, obnoxious presumptions too! It's fun.), and may be taking my arguments personally as a result, but please don't. FFG has demonstrably screwed the pooch on balance with respect to Ascended careers, and no amount of wrongheaded denial or handwaving sophistry will change that.

Lasers said:

This should look familiar, especially because it's your words. And now, correct me if I'm wrong(which you really can't because I'm not) but the above states that the psyker would win 100% of the time against the culexus yes? You say that the psyker would fly(kind of irrelevant to the whole thing) always goes first, and is one of the best in the game for spotting hidden enemies(Which, by the way, without some sustained powers this is way off.).FInally you say the culexus would not even have a chance to do anything. Want me to go dig up more of your post supporting what I just said about your original argument? I can, it would be easy, this thread is just stuffed full of them. And don't take the fact that I called out your errors personally, or presume that I'm somehow taking this personally. I'm not, I'm simply correcting you or as you put it pointing out that your arguments aren't as foolproof as you think. And don't tell me I'm acting petulant when I'm not. If I called you an arrogant such and such who has a psyker fetish then you could say I was being petulant.

"This should look familiar, especially because it's your words. And now, correct me if I'm wrong(which you really can't because I'm not) but the above states that the psyker would win 100% of the time against the culexus yes? You say that the psyker would fly(kind of irrelevant to the whole thing) always goes first, and is one of the best in the game for spotting hidden enemies(Which, by the way, without some sustained powers this is way off.).FInally you say the culexus would not even have a chance to do anything. Want me to go dig up more of your post supporting what I just said about your original argument? I can, it would be easy, this thread is just stuffed full of them. And don't take the fact that I called out your errors personally, or presume that I'm somehow taking this personally. I'm not, I'm simply correcting you or as you put it pointing out that your arguments aren't as foolproof as you think. And don't tell me I'm acting petulant when I'm not. If I called you an arrogant such and such who has a psyker fetish then you could say I was being petulant."

Actually you are (wrong that is).

First of all, that quotation is not an actual demonstration in the slightest of what you are attempting to prove.

Flying is actually relevant because it means there's a lot of things the Culexus cannot bring to bear, the Psyker moves much, much faster, and he may well be able to move beyond the range of its eminations, while simultaneously bombarding it.

Further, the Psyker _is_ most definitely one of the best in the game for spotting hidden enemies even outside of Psychic Powers and abilities, between his cheap PER advances, his early and master level access to Awareness, and compelling reasons to invest in PER (Psyniscience/Divination), so on this account you are also incorrect.

Fourth, the idea of the quoted post was to present a step by step refutation of points that the author presumably thought to make such a match up foolproof in the Culexus' favour, with a side of hyperbole to drive home the point. It is also technically true that should the Psyker be aware of the Culexus, which is a distinct possibility, he would be able to strike first, kill him, and there would in fact, be little that the Culexus could do as per the RAW, unless we attribute some truly insane properties to it.

Finally, while I appreciate your attempts to satirize me, and make thinly veiled insults, this does little to demonstrate that you are not acting every bit as childishly as I claimed.

Lasers said:

You're more than welcome to storm off; I don't mind at all.

Flying was mentioned and elaborated upon as a counterpart to the vapid assertion which you made that it was irrelevant, which it most clearly is not as I've shown.

As for the fourth point you quoted, I don't see how I argued for your point in the slightest. Your position is that I am claiming absurdities such as that "psyker will win 100% all the time forever", when in that passage, I quite obviously state that the idea of my counterarguments complete with the conclusion was to demonstrate that the outcome of the match was not as clear cut and obvious as the pro-Culexus poster made it out to be. Moreover, the following factual account of how such an encounter would play out as per the RAW, had the Psyker spotted the Culexus does not support your assertion either.

This whole argument really is just a continuation of the discussion people have been having about Psykers from day 1.

Players have always been able to make game breaking Psykers that could erase the game's most powerful bad guy in one round. The only difference now is that the levels of power are bigger.

I'll give you this: The original developers did not anticipate players having access to Unnatural Characteristics. Even in regular DH, a 6 bolt Force Barrage isn't that bad. A 24 bolt barrage though? Yeah, that's pretty epic but it's also completely ridiculous.

But is Ascension completely broken? Naww, we just need to go back and cap all the powers that are broken by these new rules. That's all the Developers needed to do, but (assuming they even took this into consideration) I doubt they really wanted to take up space in the Ascension to address the effects these new rules would have on old powers. It is a small oversight with potentially game-shattering implications, but it doesn't mean that Ascension is crap.

As for a Culexus Assassin vs. a Rank 16 Psyker played by an Uber-Twink who Cherry-picked his powers regardless of his PC concept? I'm with No-1 on this one. But since we don't have stats for the Culexus yet, why argue?

On the subject of Lasers browbeating fellow Posters and generally clobbering all of us with his Accounting skills and peerless knowledge of the rules:

Cut it out. If you think a fellow Poster is childish ignore him. There is no need to turn these forums into a flame war. Your personal attacks and name calling don't help matters at all. Rest assured we're all very impressed by your opinions.

Can't we all just get along? These forums are some of the most civil RPG forums I've ever seen. Especially when we're not talking about Space Marines.

Ferau said:

did someone say space marines?

Peacekeeper_b said:

What is there to say about Space Marines, anyway ?

Kyorou said:

I've always felt that their giant shoulder pads looked kinda silly.

Necrozius said:

Silly?! It makes them manly, very manly! Why, with shoulders like that, they can be nothing else but 111% man that you wish you were! That shoulder-span has it's own zip-code and it is most definitely not silly nor is it over compensating for other things! Further, it's necessary as it gives them a lot more back real-estate from which to hang purity seals and more guns (or cowbells) which only makes Space Marines even more awesomorze then they could be without the shoulder-pads. Furthermore, I will belittle and berate anyone who says differently in a way that would make any 10 year old proud (and will probably involve the phrases "na-uh" and "you're stupid" which very well might be 'times" some number or even infinity).

Hey, in the 41st millennium, your importance is directly proportional to the size of shoulder pads (or should that be pauldrons?) you have....

So unless your uuber-psyker has HUGE shoulder pads to boot, i shall ignore and mock him like the gretchin he is...

Hehehehe.

S.K.

Solomon Kane said:

He's got a point. With the release of Deathwatch, I'll put my uber-pauldrons up against Force Barrage any day! Not to mention the bell-bottom combat boots... Marines are so retro.

Advice for Scum characters #241: "Don't hook up with a Sororitas chick with huge shoulder armor. When you hit your pad that night with her, you'll be in for a bit of a surprise when "she" removes her trousers. DAYUM..."