Lasers said:

Is there any reason to believe that a Culexus Assassin is any less capable of Dodging such objects than a Vindicare Assassin? If not, then 'win' is not the outcome the Psyker should expect.

Unfortunately the Psyker can throw more crap at the Assassin than he can ever hope to dodge.

Lasers said:

Actually if we look at fluff and original WH40K stats you should note that Culexus isn't just run-of-the-mill Pariah. He is a superhero of all Pariahs with the equipment to boost him even more.

- Culexus assassin is completely invisible to all psychic detection which means that in order to detect the assassins presence the psyker must win opposed perception vs. stealth with Culexus sporting Etherium (which alone is perhaps +20 stealth)

- If Psyker actually sees Culexus he will also see the Eye of the Animus Speculum which is so terrifying that psykers have been known to die of heart attacks by just witnessing it. I'd rule that something like Fear 5 effect which cannot be negated by any talents.

- If Psyker is still capable of actually doing something at this point he will have further problem of actually targeting Culexus since Etherium confuses his physical senses and, as previously noted, those are the only senses he still has. I'd say he needs to succeed with another perception test with appropriate penalties.

- Assuming that the Psyker succeeds all of this without being Psyk-out Grenaded and blasted to hell with Animus Speculum autofire he can now start making those Psy tests to throw all that crap. Unfortunately he will still get a hellish penalties for Pariah aura.

It will still be a month till i get my Copy of Ascension, but the discussions in here are hard to ignore.

Now, from what i remember fluff-wise, and since this is an RPG fluff is important, Psykers are advisors. Even military advisors who can command troops if they are given the authority. But without a superior officer in the field aknowledging him and giving him that power he is still to be considered a potenital risk since he is connected to TEH WARP! A Primaris in a military campaign (like 40k TT) is a part of the force and may be given command, but he does not keep it.

AS for his sheer powers: he can't keep them on all the time, a Lord of Change (just as an example) has at least the same if not more powers, and a force barrage can only hit what the Psyker sees. Just standing behind a crate and not being seen an enemy can wait in ambush/overwatch till the Psyker walks into his fov and showers him with hot lead.

I admit that he is powerful, but he has limits as well. Read the rules carefully and you'll find them. And as a GM, use them!

segara82 said:

What exactly prohibits Psyker to scorch this crate, a guy behind it and even Earth itself with Overbleeded Fire Storm with 5d10+24 on manifest without even chance to get Phenomena? It will deal on average 9d10+5 E damage and will obliterate everything in 6 meters radius.

Mrakvampire said:

I guess the idea was for the guy to be hidden ...

Kyorou said:

It's hard to be hidden from Psyker. Cause he gains +20 to Awareness for his always-active-divination-power-that-grants-huge-bonus-to-initiative

You just don't quit, do you?

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

You too, as I've noticed. :-)

Mrakvampire said:

Actually if we look at fluff and original WH40K stats you should note that Culexus isn't just run-of-the-mill Pariah. He is a superhero of all Pariahs with the equipment to boost him even more.

- Culexus assassin is completely invisible to all psychic detection which means that in order to detect the assassins presence the psyker must win opposed perception vs. stealth with Culexus sporting Etherium (which alone is perhaps +20 stealth)

- If Psyker actually sees Culexus he will also see the Eye of the Animus Speculum which is so terrifying that psykers have been known to die of heart attacks by just witnessing it. I'd rule that something like Fear 5 effect which cannot be negated by any talents.

- If Psyker is still capable of actually doing something at this point he will have further problem of actually targeting Culexus since Etherium confuses his physical senses and, as previously noted, those are the only senses he still has. I'd say he needs to succeed with another perception test with appropriate penalties.

- Assuming that the Psyker succeeds all of this without being Psyk-out Grenaded and blasted to hell with Animus Speculum autofire he can now start making those Psy tests to throw all that crap. Unfortunately he will still get a hellish penalties for Pariah aura.

First, you are house ruling.

Second, the Psyker always goes first due to Preternatural Awareness and the +300ish bonus to Initiative it provides.

Third the Psyker is one of the best careers in the game for spotting hidden opponents (with Awareness actually superceding Psyniscience in this capacity).

Fourth, Fear 5 (house ruled non-existent fear rating btw)? What does he care? He has 90ish WP with Unnatural 3x. He is unfazed.

Fifth, the Psyker can have the Flyer 27 trait, and as stated, goes first; the Culexus doesn't even have a chance to do anything.

Second, the Psyker always goes first due to Preternatural Awareness and the +300ish bonus to Initiative it provides.

That assumes there's no surprise round. And it's very debateable whether the psyker can become preternaturally aware of a blank.

I don't think it's debatable. Preternatural Awareness is essentially limited precognition; the blank doesn't exist outside of causality.

I also forgot to mention that Psykers themselves are great at being stealthy given all the powers that strongly supplement his Concealment Tests, and act on him, not the observer.

And again, the Psyker is _great_ at detecting hidden opponents.

I guess that I suggest referring to Frank Herbert's Dune series for possible inspiration on how villains were able to "get at" a master psyker. Paul Atreides was pretty powerful, and yet the author managed to create conflict anyways.

Lasers said:

Except, yon Psyker is perceiving through the warp; every psychic divination goes through the warp. And a blank is warp absent. Or, if you must have a reference, how about page 38 of RH under the Untouchables.

• Psychic Invulnerability - "Also, he cannot be detected by Psyniscience, Sense Presence, or similar abilities - powers of this type directed at their person, even though successfully manifested, simply fail. Powers in whose wider area he is caught simply fail to affect him - although they may effect other people normally, subject to their disruption effect."

Preternatural Awareness is a form of divination. Divination in DH has been stated to show possible; often vague, futures to the psychic via the warp and its bizarre temporal incongruities. However, said psychic would not be able to see the Untouchable in any of the possibilities, as they do not cast their presence into the warp at all. Causality does not factor in to the manifestations of the warp, because that would imply the warp obeys basic rules of the material world.

Honestly, you're arguing semantics more than anything else. The Psyker's only way to know a blank is near is possibly the feeling of unease they tend to cause in people, and the disruption of said psyker's powers. Divinatory powers, whether part of the discipline or not, simply will not register the blank at all.

-=Brother Praetus=-

The Psyker may not be able to see the Blank in his prescient visions, but he can certainly see the cause and effect of its actions, which are most definitely not excluded.

Also if you want to play the RAW game, we can; the power technically acts on the Psyker, not the Blank, so regardless of whether or not he can actually see the Blank himself in his preternatural visions, he gets the massive Initiative bonus, end of story.

It may be against RAW, but the idea of an Untouchable major villain who's very existence and schemes muddies up a Psyker's Divination attempts is a really cool concept. Gasp! Uncertainty!

Yeah I'd throw the rulebook out the window for the sake of a good conflict.

Well, not in EVERY instance, but you know what I mean.

</DERAIL>

Since to an extent it bears repeating in this thread.

My post from the other Psyker God thread.

I guess I have been blessed by a very non munchkin group since no one has even hinted at this being their intended direction. My group saw the Psyker's broken mechanics and TRIED actively to fix it, instead of arguing that the RAW made them god of all and instantly I win, in fact both my Psyker players are thankfully huge rpers who are more likely to take things that "gimp" them but fit their pc than taking the most powerful "spell" they can. None of my players even wanted that I win button, they were too busy roleplaying to worry about how to build a one shot god.

On another note, as a GM call I would agee with those who say that the Psyker would NOT see blanks in their visions. Cast nothing into the Immaterium means nothing. So the Immaterium has no image to toss the Psyker's way. The call on the Initiative precog power and blanks though will require my thinking on it more. As it is both a power that affects the Psychic but one that indirectly detects an enemy that cannot be detected.

Alexis

*smiles*

Lasers said:

I don't think so, actually. The warp can't see it, so the psyker wouldn't get anything either. Such futures and possibilities do not so readily cast their shadows into the warp. Once distanced sufficiently from the originating point of time, perhaps things would begin to be seen, but there would still be uncertainty. Interesting complication, no?

Lasers said:

Sure. And the +20 Awareness as well. There is no "technically" about it, the pysker is the one extending his senses from his body. The thing is; though, Preternatural Awareness could still be said to fall under the "similar abilities" caveat of Psychic Invulnerability . After all, the sidebar also on page 38 of RH ends with the following:

" Because of the unique place in the universe of Dark Heresy , untouchables in game may bring up odd questions about their nature in the rule s and options such characters may take. In all cases it is up to the GM's own good sense and judgement to decide how they are handled."

So, really, neither you nor I are wrong in how we would deal with things. We would just handle them differently.

-=Brother Praetus=-

"I don't think so, actually. The warp can't see it, so the psyker wouldn't get anything either. Such futures and possibilities do not so readily cast their shadows into the warp. Once distanced sufficiently from the originating point of time, perhaps things would begin to be seen, but there would still be uncertainty. Interesting complication, no?"

The Warp may not be able to 'see' the Assassin, but it can certainly 'see' the outcome of that assassin's fist on the psyker's face, which is afforded no protections from the observance of the Warp. If we subscribe to the idea that nothing an Untouchable/Blank ever does can be perceived/accounted for by the Warp, its value as a predictive engine basically falls apart and becomes inconsequential due to the butterfly effect of those actions having exponential and compounding outcomes, that in turn influence many other things. To say that the outcomes of the Untouchable's initial actions 'once sufficiently distant' from them suddenly become discernible is simply handwaving that fails to live up to the logical consequences and outcome of this sort of ruling.

"So, really, neither you nor I are wrong in how we would deal with things. We would just handle them differently. "

Ah yes, the notwithstanding clause of the Untouchables. All the same, my interpretation is more in keeping with the RAW, which is what should be the basis for assessing the power and effect of a thing, or lackthereof. Either way, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree as I feel my net goal of communicating the Psyker's brokenness is more or less achieved.

@Necrozius

It may be against RAW, but the idea of an Untouchable major villain who's very existence and schemes muddies up a Psyker's Divination attempts is a really cool concept. Gasp! Uncertainty!

That reminds me of something... can't really grasp it, though.
As if millions of movie-goers cried out in terror over the butchery of the prequels... and were silenced.

@Lasers

If we subscribe to the idea that nothing an Untouchable/Blank ever does can be perceived/accounted for by the Warp, its value as a predictive engine basically falls apart and becomes inconsequential due to the butterfly effect of those actions having exponential and compounding outcomes, that in turn influence many other things. To say that the outcomes of the Untouchable's initial actions 'once sufficiently distant' from them become discernible is simply handwaving that fails to live up to the logical consequences and outcome of this sort of ruling.

Perhaps the meddling of Blanks somewhere far, far down the line is the reason divination is uncertain in the first place? Little ripples moving through the warp, making different futures possible...

Cifer said:

AW CRAP. I was thinking of the second Dune novel, not... well... you know... THOSE movies.

HA HA HA I'm gonna kill myself

Presumably the hidden heretic in Disciples is a blank judging by the lack of his presence to the Tarot and Psychic divination

Cifer said:

@Artaxerxes

Presumably the hidden heretic in Disciples is a blank judging by the lack of his presence to the Tarot and Psychic divination

That would certainly be a possibility. Either that or he has access to technology replicating a blank effect... or a blank... a Pact with the Changer of Ways also sounds like a good way of staying hidden to divination. He might be one of those hidden Necron Lords with Pariah effects built in.
Sooo many possibilities...

@Bombernoy

Having Cifer around is great, he usually says what I'm thinking so I don't have to type as often.

Always happy to help.