He has big Willpower? No, he hasn't. Psyker has, so he is can deal with any difficult situation psychologicaly more effiicient, than Storm Trooper.

A 'big WP' = psychological stability?!

So psykers are more psychologically stable as a result?

That's an interpretation i struggle to agree with...

Oh no, Primaris Psyker can gain bonus on his Interaction skills, if he needs it with special powers. Storm Trooper can't. And his fellowship advances cost the same.

So 'interaction' is a dice roll? Is this roleplaying or Backgammon?

Fluff-based yes. Game mechanic-based... No. Cause his low Willpower garantee that he hase already 30-50 Insanity Points and similar number of corruption points. Poor Guardsman / Storm Trooper! Psykers roll phenomena that requires all to test Willpower or gain Inasnity. Psyker rolls - others don't. Hahaha.

So 'interaction' is a dice roll? Is this roleplaying or Backgammon?

High Willpower makes Psyker the most sane character of all party usually.

I...well...i...genuinely don't know what to say to that.

Nearly impossible. First, you have to roll '9'. Then, you have to roll '75+'. Then again, you have to roll '75+' cause of reroll via Favoured of the Warp. Then you have to roll '80+' on Perils table. Then, you can adjust your score by 1d5. Then, you can test Willpower to kill yourself and spend Fate Point.

But...

Possible for the psyker, however unlikely.

Impossible for the guardsman.

8. not being a power-gamed crunch-munchkin 'character', optimised to 'do eveything better', while utterly failing to realise the actual point of roleplaying.

Ah, so you said it. So this career was reserved for munchkins? Nice explanation.

Hmm...a passive-aggressive comment by me not aimed i the game i'm ashamed to say...

Overall, you seem to be pursuing yet another GAMIST 'over/under-powered' rant that is somewhat tiresome; and for me as a ROLEPLAYER entirely irrelevant.

While as a GAMER these issues might irritate me or promt a house rule or two, i never let them get in the way of ROLEPLAYING.

So what if the psyker is Dr Manhattan to the Guardsman's Comedian ? PLAYING those ROLES is still immense fun...

Sometimes i think we roleplayers made a mistake coming down out of the D&D tree and letting the infernal 'game balance' anywhere near our hobby.

Vindicare totally outclassing Storm Trooper in personal combat would be an issue if DH was Computer MMORPG and both were equally available classes. However, this is not the case.

To start up with Ascension isn't an entry-level supplement meant for building starting characters. Its a high-level expansion which means that any character anywhere even close to getting Ascension career will have several hundred hours of game-time behind it defining the character, his/her current capabilities and options open to him/her. Its not like I'm going to *ever* lay down the Ascension book to players and allow them to pick-n-choose a career there. You can't just walk into your local Vindicare academy and ask to be made one. Neither can I see a realistic situation where anyone could choose between becoming a Storm Trooper or Deathcult Assassin. World doesn't work like that and that alone makes comparing the classes impossible. If you ever end up in a situation where you have Storm Trooper and Vindicare in the same party it is purely because: 1) GM allows it, and 2) Players have developed their characters over the course of the game to become exactly that.

As for the personal combat capabilities, I'd like to point out the following: If you are running a pure combat-simulation its not just Vindicare vs. Storm Trooper. You'd have to scrap a good half of basic careers and more than half of advanced careers because they arent meant to be combat monsters. If you are not, then you must understand that Storm Trooper is not meant to be and should never be a one-man-army. That is not his purpose. Lets say an Inquisitor wants to take down a heretic cult-leader. He can either:

1) Give the mission to Storm Trooper who will then gather a 10 man kill-team, equip it with state-of-the-art military hardware, infiltrate the team into position by orbital and lead the assault ending up in several dozen killed cultists, one melta-bombed cultist hideout and one heretic cult leader drugged, bagged and gagged in the backspace of the exfiltrating assault shuttle on its merry way back to Black Ship.

2) Give the mission to Vindicare who will then recon the territory, stalk the heretic for several days and finally put a single bullet through the heretics cranium.

Polaria said:

Or he can simply walk into front door, and kill everyone with poor quality lasgun. ;-)

Cause he is invulnerable to cultist's attacks (16+ dodges per round with 115% chance of success)

:-)

And, btw. What restricts Vindicare Assassin to have Command skill, huh? He can have it via standard elite advance rule. So he would be able to command that 10 man kill-team. :-)))))))))))))))))))

Polaria said:

In a nutshell, you have just saved my opinion of the Stormtrooper career from being one of the worst available. I think the misinterpretation of it is perhaps in the name - its a direct chop of the rank 8 career choice. Perhaps if they had called it "Stormtrooper Commander" or something like that people would understand its actually an officer with leadership capability as well as fearsome skills (in the military area), not just a simple meatshield (which is why my group looked at crusader before stormtrooper).

Nicely said and done.

As for Cipher's "Basilisk strike to the following co-ordinates..."

Thats probably the single best response to any possible villain speech i have ever heard!!!

S.K.

And, btw. What restricts Vindicare Assassin to have Command skill, huh? He can have it via standard elite advance rule. So he would be able to command that 10 man kill-team. :-)))))))))))))))))))

So... does he get Litany of Hatred? Into the Jaws of Hell? Master Orator? Or even the Influence to requisition the team?

To start up with Ascension isn't an entry-level supplement meant for building starting characters.

Actually, Ascension is meant to allow you to build characters straight-away and run with them. There is even a specific system (top down) made to facilitate this style of play. The web expansion, Heed the Higher Call, also adds packages to make this extremely easy. So, while you may choose not to use Ascension in this manner, it is hardwired into the product as a use for it.

Mrakvampire said:

Well, hopefully the character would have a good in-game reason to take such a skill, since Command would usually not be very appropriate for an assassin that works alone and follows orders.

It would be just as simple to come up with an in-game reason for the Stormtrooper to undergo extensive gene-therapy, as well as surgical and bionic enhancement, in order for him to take Unnatural Toughness (or whatever) as an Elite Advance. After all, I am sure those things are a large part of the explanation as to why the Vindicare has access to unnatural abilities. Under normal circumstances, Temple Assassins are expected to undergo all the sort of stuff, while Storm Troopers are not.

It's worth noting that given a long enough career, some very strange things can happen to even Guardsmen in the field. Witness the Gaunt's Ghosts series, which clearly has a Saint looking out for the Ghosts and guiding their fates. In addition, it features probably the best example of "Ascension" I've ever seen in Traitor General and His Last Command, in which the Officer core (Gaunt, Rawn, Mkoll, etc), spend 16 months on a Chaos infested world, sharpening their abilities to truly scary levels. I'd recommend the books as it also showcases how their inspirational leadership and abilities become massive "force-multiplers", making it very clear that such Storm-Trooper/Lord-General individuals are very much worth keeping around from an Inquisitor's point of view.

The 41st millenium has plenty of devices that serve to rationalise and even call for otherwise unfeasibly high levels of badassery from un-augmented humans. Why not use them?

Cifer said:

Yup. As a former Guardsman the Vindicare could have gotten Litany of Hate at Rank 8 for 200XP, Into the Jaws of Hell for 200XP, and Master Orator for 200XP. In addition to Command +20. With Iron Discipline for 200XP and Air of Authority for 100XP at Rank 7. Each time he can get Command is only 100XP.

So that is only 1200XPs of the 15K or whatever a Ascended character has to spend. No Elite Advances needed at all.

So... are there ANY drawbacks to being a Vindicare Assassin? Even fluff-wise?

There HAS to be. This $#!t's UNREAL.

Peacekeeper_b said:

As supoptimal as that ex-commander Vindicare will be in his function as a silent, long range combat focused assassin compared to an Assassin or Sniper advanced to Vindicare, I don't really see the problem.

edit: Just realized that you have already reached the stage of shifting the goalposts. Not really much reason to argue with you anymore if you have reached this stage.

Necrozius said:

Fluffwise Vindicare is an Officio Assassinorum Temple Assassin which is, by itself, a huge drawback.

Officio Assassinorum operatives have zero room for personal preferences and opinions and zero autonomy. Their operating mandate is purely mission-by-mission, kill-by-kill and they can carry out only those assassination that are specifically ordered by Officio Assassinorum and subsequently okayed by High Lords of Terra themselves.

Polaria said:

In theory that's true ... in practise I'm guessing to even be able to play a Temple Assassin there'd need to be some 'presently operating under extended Inquisitorial mandate' get-out-clause, otherwise how would you play one?

Adam France said:

Considering how many bad ass protagonists in popular media are super elite secret agent assassins who one day decide to betray their employer for personal reasons related to their twisted vigilante morality, I don't see all that being difficult, personally.

I mean, people LOVE the concept of filthy rich stylish assassins with a murderer's "code" that still lets soccer moms and white knighting internet sociopaths admire them ("no women, no kids- I only happen to kidnap, torture and slay pedophiles, rapists and mimes, so I'm not REALLY that bad after all").

Heh. Vindicares have only one drawback: the ONE time that they refuse to murder their quarry, the hunt is on... them... THIS SUMMER...

Not to forget that a Vindicare KNOWS what will definitely happen to him should he not follow his orders. While a freelancer might consider to get into trouble for breaking of a contract, the OA operates on a far higher level than any criminal organisation. It simply flags him Imperiumwide as a Xenolover and Chaoshugger, and sends in secret other Assassins of several different temples after him. How would you like to have it to literally check every glass you are ever going to drink in a bar (Callidus) ? Never ever sleep with another human being (Callidus again)? Simply walk around in rather open areas (Vindicare)? Or getting ambushed by a Eversor who can dodge as good as you and is a better fighter in CC than you (You can't win against his WS-roll for Faint)? And to never ever use a public service again?

No, Sir, i would rather follow those orders.

As others said: For those who played through DH to Ascension the classes are not a simply choice since they are limited by their previous actions.

For the others: If you play those monsters, i as a GM will never have a problem in creating a big enough threat for you to be needed there and still get kicked around very good!

Gokerz said:

Not quite as you are hugely mistaken. First, I am no more "shifting the goal posts" then anyone else here. Someone stated that the Vindicare doesnt get said talents and skills, and I just showed that one such path shows they can.

And I am not here to argue. I posted my review, I stated my reasons, I read other people's replies, but do not think for a moment I am arguing with you or anyone. If you like the book then I am glad for you. But as my review stated, I do not like a lot of the book but do like other parts.

I do not think the ideas, the level of power or the goal of the new rules are broken, just the execution.

Shifting the goal posts seems to be a very common argument on these forums... or is it just the same person accusing everyone of shifting goal posts in every argument?

LeBlanc13 said:

Bombernoy said:

Ouch! I think I dropped a few IQ points after reading that response.

Cifer said:

I don't see what's stopping any of my current party, resources available, calling down a Basilisk strike.

So far, all the arguments for what a Stormtrooper can do are based on his position, within a military hierarchy. Our good friend the Primaris Psyker is also usually part of a military hierarchy. If he comes from the Savant-Militant path, he most certainly is from a military hierarchy, and he probably outranks the stormtrooper to boot. He can probably give the artillery commander enough confidence that he needs to call down that bombardment NOW to at least the same degree a stormtrooper can.

As for a fluff-issue. I'll repeat myself from several posts back: just because a player is picking his character class, skills, and talents "in character", and even assuming a bit of optimisation comes into that ("Trantor's a gunslinger, I'll buy him another BS advance..."), I do not think for a minute things are going to be interesting if, the moment the stormtrooper (for example) says:

"Sir, I'm going to lead this kill-team into the fetid swamps on Dusk to hunt down our qu-"
"This is Agent LIIVI, vox feed Delta. Target has been dealt with. Requesting pickup from Dusk. Ave Imperator."

"Sir, I suggest we launch a covering barrage of basilisk fire to keep their heads down while we move into position. From there, my men and I will detonate the melta-charges, bringing down the chaos marines. Hopefully we'll be able to save our psyker friend after t-
"Just a sec, soldier. I'm picking up a psychic message."
+++Faustus here, Lord Inquisitor. Chaos marine squad has been eliminated with minimal fuss. I'd recommend a pick-up but.....there isn't much left of them to pick up. I'm reading zero psychic disturbance in the area now. Faustus out.+++

@Peacekeeper

Yup. As a former Guardsman the Vindicare could have gotten Litany of Hate at Rank 8 for 200XP, Into the Jaws of Hell for 200XP, and Master Orator for 200XP. In addition to Command +20. With Iron Discipline for 200XP and Air of Authority for 100XP at Rank 7. Each time he can get Command is only 100XP.

So that is only 1200XPs of the 15K or whatever a Ascended character has to spend. No Elite Advances needed at all.

Ok, let me rephrase that: Can a Vindicare get all those nice leadership talents while still retaining the killy-ness that is ascribed to him due to the usual assassin builds?

@HoboHunter

I don't see what's stopping any of my current party, resources, available, calling down a Basilisk strike.

So far, all the arguments for what a Stormtrooper can do are based on his position, within a military hierarchy. Our good friend the Primaris Psyker is also usually part of a military hierarchy. If he comes from the Savant-Militant path, he most certainly is from a military hierarchy, and he probably outranks the stormtrooper to boot. He can probably give the artillery commander enough confidence that he needs to call down that bombardment NOW to at least the same degree a stormtrooper can.

Why should the psyker outrank the stormtrooper? Especially considering that most psykers are considered paper-officers, having an official rank but not an actual command (see the rank quotes from DH). That sounds like "The Primaris Psyker is better because I define him as being better!"

As for a fluff-issue. I'll repeat myself from several posts back: just because a player is picking his character class, skills, and talents "in character", and even assuming a bit of optimisation comes into that ("Trantor's a gunslinger, I'll buy him another BS advance..."), I do not think for a minute things are going to be interesting if, the moment the stormtrooper (for example) says:

"Sir, I'm going to lead this kill-team into the fetid swamps on Dusk to hunt down our qu-"
"This is Agent LIIVI, vox feed Delta. Target has been dealt with. Requesting pickup from Dusk. Ave Imperator."

So who inserted LIIVI? Did he slog through those swamps on foot? Also, how did he get his precious Exitus ammunition?

"Sir, I suggest we launch a covering barrage of basilisk fire to keep their heads down while we move into position. From there, my men and I will detonate the melta-charges, bringing down the chaos marines. Hopefully we'll be able to save our psyker friend after t-
"Just a sec, soldier. I'm picking up a psychic message."
+++Faustus here, Lord Inquisitor. Chaos marine squad has been eliminated with minimal fuss. I'd recommend a pick-up but.....there isn't much left of them to pick up. I'm reading zero psychic disturbance in the area now. Faustus out.+++

Yes, Force Barrage needs to be capped somewhere. We know.
By the way: Assuming a WP bonus of 24, Force Barrage has a range of 240 metres. A non-Astartes Boltgun has a range of 360 metres. A sniper rifle considerably more. A basilisk has one of several kilometres. How did that psyker ever get into range?

Cifer said:

Because unless you take the Guardsman/Officer route it looks like you stay a non-comm sergeant.

The thing is in every military it does not matter if you are a paper pusher or a line soldier (save for medicals and chaplains), if you outrank someone you outrank someone. In W40K refusing an order from a superior officer would mean a las-shot to the temple administered by an commissar. If you look at page 78 of the main book you'll see the description for the Lieutenant-Savant, there's the term "officer's rank and privilege" and it means that he's a full blown officer with power over non-comms. And the grunts can say what they want, when an officer (psyker or not) says "frog" they better jump or executions will be in order. The imperial guard isn't a modern fighting force, it's an fascistoid moloch in which free will and own opinions are as welcome as trench foot.

"Yes, Force Barrage needs to be capped somewhere. We know.
By the way: Assuming a WP bonus of 24, Force Barrage has a range of 240 metres. A non-Astartes Boltgun has a range of 360 metres. A sniper rifle considerably more. A basilisk has one of several kilometres. How did that psyker ever get into range?"

Being stealthy is exceptionally easy for a Psyker. Also, he has powers like Barrier, Flameshroud, Telekinetic Barrier, Catch Projectiles, Distort Vision, Flesh Like Iron, Preternatural Dodge, etc, etc, and so forth.

You know, psykers keep coming up as the be all end all, but there are a few things that really just cut them down to size, one is the Culexus assassin, homebrew some stats and give him a nasty little effect against psykers that does damage based on psy rating(Make him a vindicare with a pumped up package from the radicals handbook).

"You know, psykers keep coming up as the be all end all, but there are a few things that really just cut them down to size, one is the Culexus assassin, homebrew some stats and give him a nasty little effect against psykers that does damage based on psy rating(Make him a vindicare with a pumped up package from the radicals handbook)."

Culexus Assassins are actually quite easy for a Psyker to deal with: Telekinesis + heavy object(s) = win.