Ascension: A hater’s review.

As the title indicates, this is largely a negative review. So you are all warned.

Introduction

I have been playing RPGs since I was 10, which is more years ago then I care to admit. In that time I have fully outgrown the concept class and level systems and prefer free-form character generation and advancement, such as the basics presented in games like DC Heroes, Blood of Heroes, Champions, BRP/Call of Cthulhu and so forth. It is not a complete refusal or appreciation of level and class systems, but more of a disagreement with the feel and flow of such campaigns. To me it breaks the fourth wall to restrict characters based on level of accomplishment or career field. To say a individual cannot fire a bolter or climb a wall because he is too low level or of the wrong occupation just always sat wrong with me.

However, Dark Heresy, despite being a thinly veiled class and level system, quickly became my favorite RPG, almost of all time (still very fond of DC Heroes). Several factors led to this initial like and fondness for the game. The first being it is Warhammer 40,000. My all time favorite Sci-Fi setting. I play the Table Top version, Necromunda and even read many of the novels. So naturally I was already in love with the setting. Dark Heresy then kept the system fairly close to Warhammer Fantasy Role Play (1st and 2nd Edition) of which I was fond of ever since college. It was a win-win situation for me. Plus I happened to find out they were publishing Dark Heresy the day before it was publicly released, so I didn’t have all those agonizing months (years for some people) of waiting, just a painful 7 days of checking the mail.

From the start I was disappointed in the career/rank structure but soon The Inquisitor’s Handbook came out and provided much better character generation and advancement options that made me accept the game as it was and to be able to use it and enjoy it without too much house ruling going on. With the announcement of new books such as Creatures Anathema, Radical’s Handbook and Ascension I was very excited, especially for Ascension.

And then Ascension finally arrived, I sat back to read and absorb it and put it down pretty quickly. Over the following week I eventually read it in bits and pieces and came to the conclusion that this book would not be getting much use in my campaign. So let us begin.

I will start with the Good. That way those who don’t want to read a bad review can stop before it gets bad. Also those who wish to respond will have an easier time finding my negative comments for quoting on the forum if they are at the bottom of the post.

THE GOOD

Background information is always good, be it advice on how to run a game, information on a location or organization or new statistics and gear. Ascension delivers here fairly well. We get new foes, such as Eldar Exarchs, Rogue Imperial Governors, Crazy Tech Priests, Changers of Ways, Heralds of Khorne and of course more Slaugth. Because what we needed was a third book with Slaugth in it.

While I don’t agree with everything included the entries on the Vindicare Assassin, Crusader, Death Cult Assassin and other Ascended Careers provides plenty of fun, interesting fluff which was enjoyable to read. And the addition of Influence rules were a nice add that gives new depth to the game.
Transition packages are interesting and would make nice basis for elite package deals and even background package deals for starting characters.

There is good art, plenty of new quotes and some additional gear to surprise the PCs with as well as award them if you feel fit.

The adventure in the back seems fairly well thought out, has some interesting concepts and seems easily modified if you wish to use it with a standard Dark Heresy game (or even Rogue Trader).

I also like seeing the new Psy-Rules of Fettered, Unfettered and Push. After seeing them in Rogue Trader, I am glad to see them revised for the real Psy-Mechanics (plus I can easily import these into WFRP 2E).

THE BAD

Hoo-boy. I will simply put it this way. The new rules for ascended characters are just some of the worst and poorest RPG designs I have ever seen. They don’t match the setting, the character career descriptions or the system mechanics enough to work properly. In general you should never be able to buy an Unnatural Characteristic without some sort of in game event. Here you make it to the right Rank and you can just buy Unnatural Characteristics, which breaks the feel of HUMAN CHARACTERS. I understand that Vindicare Assassins are the best trained Mo-Fos in the universe, but it makes no sense for a Metallican Gunslinger to all the sudden become a Vindicare and then turn around and out of nowhere get Unnatural Agility (X2). I don’t care if it does cost 100XPs it doesn’t fit.

I can see Psykers gaining Unnatural Willpower, or even Tech Priests getting Unnatural Strength or even Toughness explained away via cybernetics and bionics.

Then you have a career which just is a waste of rules completely. Most of the advances for a Interrogator are just “Eh pick whatever skill you want, oh yeah, it costs you 700XP” which is silly, when earlier in the book during the creating a character section the character can buy any elite advance he wants for 500XP. You telling me an Elite Advance costs 500XP or 700XP or more? Even at that level? And by the time you are on rank 9 how many skills can you really not have that you actually want? It just reeks to me of a designer who went “hmmm we need to add the Interrogator as a career, but what can we really give him?” “ooooh ooooh I know, nothing but Any Skill at 700XP and then from Rank 11 on nothing but connections, which we covered in the Inquisitor’s handbook but we went back to the well and overwrote that one!”

Some of these new careers work well, some don’t. Some seem really thought out, others seem like they were rushed and added just to fill out the ranks. I have said it before, and I will say it again, there should be a Rank 2 alternate career for any career called “Acolyte” and after reading this book they could expand that with a Rank 4 Throne Agent, Rank 6 Interrogator and Rank 8 Inquisitor.

There has been enough talk about which careers in particular are broke (Vindicare I am looking at you, hey where did he go?).

Enough on careers.

Mastered Skills and Paragon Talents. These start off sounding nice and swell, and while Mastered Skills do work for how they intended them (a group of related skills all at +20) they do not reduce the space on the character sheet as previously stated in other posts as they are present both in the skill list and a separate column called Mastered Skills. I can see them speeding up play by their very nature though. By looking at the name of the Mastered Skill you can automatically in general know what you can do. Paragon Talents however pain my brain. In the old days I had to look up a talent to see what it does. Now I have to look up a Paragon Talent to see what Talents I have to look up. Not quite like that, as they do have descriptions, but both Mastered Skills and Paragon Talents only add to the skill/talent wall of text in character descriptions.

I don’t like the selling back of Psy powers to get cheaper advanced powers. I would be all for it if they were stacked powers, but the fact that I can get rid of totally unrelated abilities to gain new MANGA or FINAL FANTASY style ass-blast powers just adds a level of munchkin to me. But I like some of the new thought on Psy overall, but the lack of attention to Sorcery is kind of annoying.

They started with a few good ideas for negative talents (Enemy, Rival) but didn’t take it far at all (only Enemy, Rival). I recommend using a variation of the Contact design rules in IHB to get more accurate XP Values for rivals and Enemies. I would also like to see a larger list of negative talents/traits, such as character flaws, physical disadvantages and so forth. But that is a house rule I suppose. I also think it is trite that you have to wait to rank 9 to get a rival or enemy, you know after you have already spent 13K XP. Like you really need 200 more XP at that rank. Be helpful, IMHO, at Rank 1.

OVERALL COMMENT

Overall, Ascension is by far the worst supplement for Dark Heresy yet to be released. But consider this before you attack me or my post or my review. In the company of Disciples of the Dark Gods, Creatures Anathema, The Radical’s Handbook, The Inquisitor’s Handbook, the GM’s Kit and the Core Rules, Ascension is in some pretty impressive company. It is still a better book then most companies and games get, but it falls short of what it can be.

I look forward to adapting aspects of this book to fit what I want out of the game. The aforementioned alternate career ranks and so forth. But in the end, I think in MY PERSONAL OPINION THAT I AM JUST PUTTING ON THE INTERNET TO SHARE AND NOT DICTATE THAT ALL THE ABOVE IS 100% TRUE IN THE GOD-EMPEROR OF MANKIND’S NAME that Ascension has officially taken DH into the era of really bad Computer Video Game levels of power that break the already broken career and rank system it was built on.

** out of *****

I am still waiting for my copy. Your review seems thorough and thought out well .. with all the other negative feedback here on these forums on Ascension I kind of get the impression FFG has not delivered it's best supplement ever ....

Agree with all your points here, while I was fine with classes as a restriction in the core book I've grown increasingly apathetic towards them, more background careers or alternate ranks such as those from IH would have been lovely, instead we have a bunch of classes that are just not terribly inspiring and sometimes have little in common with there fluff descriptions.

Crusader is perhaps the dullest of the careers in the book, an elite bodyguard who must be joined to the hip of his client... really?

Paragon skills have given me some neat ideas on how I'd structure a classless game of DH though so I'm grateful to that

My only comment (I don't have the book yet) is on the buying of Unnatural Attributes for xp. For better or worse (worse in my opinion) that's exactly how the game handles buying "class only" cybernetic augmentations for Tech Priests and similar careers (Maltek Stalkers and such). The xp costs can be rationalized as necessary practice to adjust to using the newly augmented abilities (and that part works reasonably well. Just walking around with jacked up reflexes is going to be a new experience). In my game such abilities can only be purchased when there's appropriate down time and access to justify them, which I'm sure is not a unique solution on my part.

Artaxerxes said:

I agree on some of the career paths being just lackluster, especially for certain characters.

I liked Ascension overall as a toolkit, something to let me (knowing what I do about the TT) go back and make some Ascended career paths I feel are closer to home. Then using the Ascended paths I like as a baseline build them to be balanced.

I felt right off that Seraphim was missing. Hierophant works well for a Famulous, and even works for a Dialogous. Crusader works for a Dialogous Mother who is that final hand to strike a noble family should they fall, but guard them otherwise, ever reminding them that the Ecclisiarchy is watching. But the Seraphim are not so well represented in those classes..

This is of course my opinion only, but I do intend to remedy it. I realized that Crusader was not working when I built the Legatine Crusader in my game. She needs to be a Seraphim.

Alexis

*smiles*

31 days, during which my conviction to order Ascension will be tempted by Ruinous Powers and evidently righterous fury of the reviewers.

45 days, after I will see if I wouldn´t regret to get Ascension instead of for example Iron Warrior novella.

Nooo, I want to make Oblationist Inquisitor PC

I would have liked some guidelines on Ascending characters that make use of options from the RH. Many of the Ascended professions just don't fit very well with characters that have taken an alternate rank, and Throne help an Ascended Hive Mutant that wants to be anything but a Desperado.

Cynical Cat said:

Which the book does for some traits but not others. For example, The Flesh is Weak, is a talent/trait for Tech Priest (Magos) that gives you teh Machine Trait. They could have easily given the Unnatural Characteristic advances neat fuffy names and a paragraph to explain that they give this or that unnatural characteristic.

But it just sits there on the chart with no supporting fluff, just an entry waiting for a munchkin to notice it.

Thank you for that very informative review (and for well and truly saving me $50). I found your introduction particularly helpful because it confirmed that we come from similar gaming philosophies, and so have similar preferences. I'm very sorry to hear that Ascension is not what I wished it to be.

Now I just need to go work out those Acolyte, Throne Agent, Interrogator and Inquisitor alternate ranks you mention.

Unnatural Agility in Vindicare presents conditioning and genetic enhancements applied to his body. I personally have no problem with that. And for me Vindicare advancements and talents just perfectly epitomize what Temple Assassin should be able to do. I imagine his dodges as a scene when in the period of 4-5 seconds enemy shoot/cut and for Vindicare it happens so slowly that he dodges several blows/shots with just one body repositioning. Yes, it's beyond any human capabilities, BUT he is not human any more. Not at all. He just has a human form. This is whole new level of power and it should be that way. For me this class is just wounderful. Is it broken? No, 'cause we're not playing a competitive computer game. Vindicare class is exactly as it should be according to fluff. He's one of the most powerful human (that means not alien or daemonic) individuals in the galaxy. Those guys are trained to kill even Space Marine Commanders/Chaos Space Marine Leaders, Eldar Farseers/Autarchs, Tau Leaders, etc. To be honest, IMHO Vindicare is the best made class in the whole Ascension. The question is not really whether he's broken, but whether other classes are equally powerful in what they do. Inquisitor or Hierophant for example, would never match Temple Assassin in martial prowess, but they are unmatched in case of Influence and obtaining resources.

Coming back to unnatural. The problem starts with Death Cult Assassins (who do not get enhancements like Temple Assassins) and having Unnatural Agility x4 at the last rank. How do you explain that - having several times higher Agility than most Eldar? And additionl question is really 'what for?'

I was also quite disappointed with Magos - after wouderful classes like Secutor and Heretek Savant I hoped for something totally outstanding and although he gets some nice talents that suit him entirely, most his talents and skills concern Influence (with his Fellowship...) - but it was already touched upon in the other topic.

I agree with Crusader being a class which is totally indistinctive. He doesn't possess any (!) outstanding talents and skills and for sure is not a class an Adepta Sororitas player would like to take.

Ok, I will make it shorter from this point on, because I would soon write a review, not a comment.

In overall impression I like this supplement with its pros and cons, I like Influence system in particular (although I think it dominates some classes too badly), I like adversaries, adventure seems nice, new weapons and rules for them were something I waited for a long time (I don't possess RT), I like its outrageous power level (for Vindicare and Psyker at least), I like Transition Packages. What I don't like is lack of a kind of consequence - if you introduce one Temple Assassin, why not introduce other? According to fluff Vindicare is on the divine level in comparison to the mere Death Cult Assassin or Crusader. The same case with psykers. Accroding to fluff, Primaris Psykers are comperable in power to the highest rank Psykers in the W40k universe - they can blow up entire platoons with their powers. Can Stormtrooper or even non-psyker Inquisitor do that? I guess not. This lack of power consequence (I mean what to put in such a book not to make a pushover) is probably the biggest flaw. BUT and I will say it again, BUT with good GM this has nothing to do with ruining the game and provide a lot of nice possibilities for the whole group - maintaining the balance of Influence, Command and killing power.

But I agree with problems that may occur upon introduction of Radical Characters into Ascension - it's up to GM how to handle that - bad thing is that the book does not cover it. In comparison with other DH supplements though (their more or less maintained balance), Ascention is not so good, but still I would give it 7/10 as I really like possibilities it provides for a group and their GM to introduce a whole new level of gameplay.

I’ll throw in my $0.02 on Ascension. I wasn’t thrilled with it at first but, after poring over it quite a bit, I’m loving it. I think it really takes the game to the next level. The next level . That’s becoming a force, not on the battlefield or in an alley, but amongst the halls of power. That’s what the characters have finally become… a political force to be reckoned with in the Sector. As I read through it more and more, I find they did a good job on many of the aspects.

I’ll start with agreeing that some of the Careers aren’t very interesting. I think Desperado and Storm Trooper were a bit unimpressive but I love the Crusader, Hierophant, Interrogator and other Careers. I’m surprised that Crusader got so much hate… what’s so odd about a character class that has the duty of protecting an Inquisitor? Bodyguard seems to be the most easily resolved role in a cadre. In addition, I think the Crusader is far more than a bodyguard… they’re righteous warriors in spades. I really liked their inclusion.

The Desperado wasn’t that impressive and Storm Trooper is good but I wish it was called something else. I just have the mental image of Storm Troopers being the Inquisitorial ground troops and not something from the Cadre. But that’s just me.

“In general, you should never be able to buy an Unnatural Characteristic without some sort of game event.”

Why? I take it that’s your preference and maybe GMs would agree with you, thereby making it possible for them to incorporate into your game as in-game events or simply cutting them out completely. Myself, I think it helps to create the more storied nature of the games an Ascended Cadre are participating in.

Interrogator is excellent IMO. The Any Skill/Talent advances are perfect for someone in that class. Using Carl Thonius as an example, it’s a perfect way to build a character with incredible knowledge skills and combat skills as a balanced build. Representing the many different roles that an Interrogator is required to fulfill in the service of their Inquisitor. The Interrogator is actually the one that I think does its role the best. It’s also the only in-game way for a character to gain Psy Rating without being a Psyker or Nascent Psyker. Elite Advances require actual in-game events. From the DH book, it indicates that Elite Advances are up to the GM and subject to in-game events or even higher XP rates. I think it’s important that an Interrogator is able to access any skill/talent that may be of value to them. In fact, I wouldn't want to be an Inquisitor without being an Interrogator first.

I think your observation of Paragon Talents is true but… I would assume that anyone who has that Paragon Talent is going to know what they can do. Being down on it because it doesn’t reduce the amount of writing on your sheet isn’t that strong of a weakness. I love the Mastery skills… they’re perfect for the Ascended roles and capabilities. In XP cost, they’re significantly enhanced over working your way up to them little by little. My only concern is that many advancements in Ranks 1-8 lose some of their flavor when gobbled up by Master Skills. Even so, I think it’s important that an Inquisitor and Interrogator have access to the full range of skills especially when it comes to Lore.

I was down on the Psy Powers until I went over them again. Important thing to realize is that the Psyker has an entire toolbox of psy powers from Ranks 1-8 to fall back on. The Ascended Powers are those manifested by individuals of earth-shaking abilities. That Psyker still has all the other powers and can use them or not. The buyback? You don’t have to do it. You can pay the full price for Ascended Powers but now you have a way of reducing a more powerful ability’s cost by getting rid of some of the sillier powers you picked up on your way up. As indicated, Ascended Psykers are assumed to be incredibly powerful at a few things. I think the Ascended Powers really bring that out. The addition of the RT scheme (Fettered etc) is just what everyone was looking for.

Sorcery is the tool of the heretic… why would it be a main power to be included in a book about Throne Agents? I think you’re confusing this book with a “Ascended Radical Handbook.” It’s pretty obvious that there is going to be much more coming down the line on heretical powers since villains need Ascension too! I don’t think Ascension is the proper book for Sorcery or many of the elements from the Radical’s Handbook. It’s the Radical’s Handbook for a reason…

I would agree that I wish some more work had been put in regarding Influence, Influence Talents and the background of Inquisition work such as Acolyte Networks, Contacts, Resources etc. I was hoping that they would remove the Contacts XP cost for Ascended games. I never liked that you had spend XP on it. But… here’s an idea, use the XP cost as a Influence modifier and now you have your Contacts system for Ascended games. But I would agree that more expansion needs to be done on the mechanical side of things. Even so, I think Ascension sets the stage for supplements of that very kind.

Rogue Trader did a better job of giving some mechanics for “off-camera” actions and I think Ascension has a base of things for that type of thing but doesn’t follow it all the way to the logical conclusion. The Influence system should have been more interactive. I like the idea of a base Influence but am hoping that an expansion to it would allow you to raise particular Influence scores with specific groups beyond just the Peer and such. In addition, a more structured approach to long-range, large-scale investigations and plots would have been truly helpful. Something along the lines of Endeavors… The Influence talents are great but I do think we should have gotten more actual game Talents for the Inquisitor career. Political, social and mass combat would have been particularly helpful.

When I got done with reading through Ascension, all I can think about is how well of a base entry it is. It lacks the detail that RH and IH have but it’s basically a new rulebook. The same level of detail that you’d find in the DH main book and they expanded on with further supplements. I think we’re definitely in a good position to see works of a similar nature. And further expansions to address all of the concerns noted… it’s one book, what more can you expect from it?

A future book that would be really helpful is some form of a guidebook for writing, statting and playing out the wide scope of activities for an Ascended Cadre. With more examples of specific Influence uses, research, networks, statting out an Acolyte Network and running more things in the background like RT.

My review is that it’s excellent. It took a couple reads and some sample characters to see where things stood but I am really happy with it. More, I’m happy with the direction that it’s taking the game. The door is opened on a whole new level of mucking about in the Calixis Sector. It’s not about bringing the guns to the fight anymore it’s about bringing the power of the Throne and =I= to the entire Sector.

(I still think Inquisitors should be rank bajillion)

6Kilgs said:

While I'm happy for them to start there careers at rank 6-7

Peacekeeper_b - nice, clear and informative review, with well balanced arguments for the "good" and the "bad".

My compliments

I'm still of two minds on whether I will get this or not (probably yes knowing my RPG/W40K addiction). One question if i may: you mention the Slaugth as appearing again; do we get a new variant (Overseer plus??) or just more background info?

DW

Traveller61 said:

We get a renegade overseer and a cabal of the Amarathine Syndicate that are loyal to him without being aware he's a traitor (The Slaugth is addicted to fine dining off humans and cast out by others)

Artaxerxes said:

Fine dining ? As in caviar, wine and stuff? What happened to good old fashioned OMMNOMNOM? And " Braaains ..."?

@OP: Thanks for the review. I should ( finally )get my hands on a copy of my own at the end of this week.

Aajav-Khan said:

Masterchef meme has me in its grip, I cant picture eating without it popping in to my head. Masterchef Slaugth would be awesome

"Cooking doesnt get harder than this!"

*eats contestants brains while they cook"

I'll reserve any judgements until I actually run it, which is a good 7000xp away for the current game and much to do between then and there as they establish their own power bases, contacts and influences. (probably getting shot at a lot in the process!) None of it really phases me as a GM, if I don't like it and I think it will be too overwhelming, then its simply just not going in the game. That's pretty much the end it unless someone has some kind of convincing argument and justification why they need it.

Its a bit like opening up the big can of Melta-Whup ass. It just gives me a reason to field tanks

Though I will be ditching the current DH busted arse psy-system and bringing in Influence to get rid of the individual player income earlier, both of which I've always utterly loathed.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Or you could just look up what the Paragon Talent does, since it tells you everything those talents do. I personally enjoy being able to read all of my related talents in one section.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I'm not sure where you are getting manga or final fantasy from those powers. Unless you think that anything less than the scummiest of scum is totally just trying to be some anime awesome dude. Personally, I'm kind of glad that I can get rid of weakers powers to buy ascended powers that do similar things.

Yanma said:

I believe the next sentence I wrote even stated that. So thanks for reading the entire review.

Yanma said:

I agree, as I said in the review. If they are similar powers, sure exchange them. But ditching Call Item, Speak to Animals, and Healing to gain Mega-Force-Ass-Lightning doesnt fit that reasoning. You can ditch totally unrelated powers to get totally unrelated mega-powers.

Ascension continues to add Power-Creep to the gam which just has more of a RIFTS vibe then 40K.

This just in:

Dark Heresy players complain about power levels of their characters!

News at 11!!!


I mean really - does this sum it up:

When Dark Heresy came out people complained that the characters were too weak. Now Ascension comes out and people complain they're too powerful. People complain about the Paragon Talents and Mastered Skills. People complain about the Psychics. People complain about the Classes. My God. People are never happy are they?

The only problems I can see with Ascension so far are that the Vindicare appears to be able to Dodge everything 100% of the time, and that the Magos can't get all his upgrades because Tech-Priests can't get Fellowship upgrades.

BYE

Peacekeeper_b said:

Wha? Did you get the same book I did? The book that says on the back...

"This book takes your Dark Heresy campaign to greater heights of power, responsibility and peril in the grim future."

Because I'm not seeing much creeping going on. I think the intention of this book all along has been that Ascended Characters are better than Acolytes. That's kinda the point. Throne Agent > Acolyte.

Power creep is something completely different. It's when new content that is available at the same time as older content is vastly better. Comparing Rifts to this is just not thinking it through.

I mean, this book has a Psy-Level 15 Alpha-Level Psyker and a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch listed as the types of enemies you should be facing. You know, Greate Daemons and Alpha Psykers, the types of adversaries that eat Marine Squads for lunch? Who crumble lines of tanks with a mere thought?

Yeah. You kind of need to be this power level to fight those sorts of Adversaries. Are people really concerned because the highest level Lightning Power will auto-win the bar brawls your GM keeps putting you in? If so then your GM nets to get his act together and put you in situations that are appropriate for the power level.

Whenever someone criticises Dark Heresy I am quick to point out that you get out of an RPG what you put in. If the GM and the players aren't approaching the game correctly and in a way that makes sense, then they're going to have a crappy time. If you're sending Acolytes to kill a Lord of Change, they're all going to die. If you're sending in high level Primaris Psykers and Inquisitors to quell some rabble rouses personally, then you're using a nuke to hammer in a nail.

BYE

Can you please create and interesting combat encounter that will be interesting both to Storm Trooper (last rank) and Primaris Psyker (last rank)?

Please don't use Untouchables (or you will imply that ALL encounters of this level should include bunch of untouchables?)

Peacekeeper_b said:

No, your next sentence was complaining that these things cluttered up character descriptions. Which is strictly not true.