Here's an idea that I've been pondering for a couple of days.

Based purely on the size of the Inner Region, I feel that the use of a d6 for movement is a little too much. Consider that the spaces are generally more dangerous, and likely the terrain would be a little more difficult, then I think yomping over the region should really be a little harder than the wide open space of the Outer Region.

So for any Character starting his turn in the Inner Region I propose using a d4 for movement. Just like the Outer Region can get you from corner to corner using a d6, then the same would be true with a d4 in the Inner Region.

The benefits to the game, would be that the Inner Region becomes a tad more dangerous to move around in. Your choices of destination becomes more limited too. A Character standing in the Oasis normally only has a 1 in 6 chance of landing in the Desert, but of course this rises to 1 in 4 with a d4.

It is easier to "miss" the Black Knight or Chasm with a d6 too. You would need to be closer to the Portal of Power in order to gain access to it and there are other interesting side effects.

Thoughts?

I see you point, but I have never liked using alternative dice. D6 is the standard for Talisman. But then the only other adaptation I can think of is halving a D6 rounded down, and that may be clunky to some players... if their math challanged .

Too bad the old Realm dice aren't still around for this idea.

There is another quirk involved, though maybe it's an acceptable balance. Most times, when one is trying to hit a particular space, the chance of doing so on a range of 1 to 6 with D6 is 16.7%. On a range of 1 to 4 with D4, the chance of hitting your preferred space is now 25%. Then again, with the realm die, if the space you want is a 2 or 3 (?) that would mean a 33.3% chance of hitting one of those... if I'm correclty remembering which numbers repeat on the realm die. Maybe not.

You can easily adapt a standard d6 to become a "realm" die if required, or just use a d4.

For those that do not know, Talisman 3rd Edition expansions used a realm die for movement to give the impression that the Region was bigger than it physically was! It is a d6, but numbered - 1,1,2,2,3,4.

The chance of hitting a required space was a consideration, but actually because the use of a true d4 increases your chances of hitting a space that you DO NOT want!

Ah ha, so I didn't remember the realm die correclty. And its spread actually decreases the average range of movement even more than a D4. That's probably too much (too little?) for any region on the main board. Noting wrong with a D4 of course. I was just trying to think of way for people to approach this without acquiring a special die.

I think I will have a try with a true d4 to see if it makes much difference.

Another "benefit" I just considered means that "Old Grim" will get more of an outing when people hit the Inner Region.

Okay... hadn't thought of that, though my group doesn't use the Reaper. However... we do occassionally use Brogger's "Toad King".... and that makes the D4 idea interesting as well!

Now that you mentioned it, middle region DID always seemed too small and I always had a feeling that I speed-run through it.

D4 would fix this rather well if not for just one tottaly subjective thing. I never really liked D4 because you can't actually "roll" it. It just falls out of your palm and "splat" lands on one of the sides like something that just died (pun not intended ). But that's just me and my quirks. I thought briefly about D3 (halved D6) but it might be a little too slow for some players. I wonder if you can still buy a realm dice or something simmilar. I'll have to do a little research on that. If I find something promising I'll let you know.

I apologize for the double post but I've just finished my net-search (quite brief I might add) and came across few promising products. Everything I'll post will be from a single web page which was the clearest and most user friendly (I don't know if the cheapest) of all I've checked. I'm just posting the samples - they have dice of all possible shapes and colours there.

First the D3 for "mathematicly challanged" www.gamestation.net/Chessex-Opaque-16mm-d6-with-123/M/B001G1RABE.htm . A die numbered 1,1,2,2,3,3 is quite ellegant solution. It would make for a much slower movement but it's worth a try.

Here's something for JCHendee who loves statistics and bell curve www.gamestation.net/Chessex-Opaque-16mm-Dice-Averaging-d6/M/B001FSBXHA.htm . Averaging die numbered 2,3,3,4,4,5. It would be a little too fast for Jon's idea but it might be used somwhere else so it's worth mentioning.

And there are Sicherman dice www.gamestation.net/Sicherman-Dice-1-pair/M/B0012YVYXK.htm . Apart from being brilliant mathematical concept the lower die of the pair numbered 1,2,2,3,3,4 is the closest to Realm Dice. It would still be a little faster then D4 or realm die but it's close. For the curious here is wikipedia article on Sicherman dice.

Finally I left best for last. Either that or my laziness is showing because it's not quite finished product, more like raw material really www.gamestation.net/category/2583963201/1/Blank-Dice.htm . Yes, blank dice. You read it right. With a plain sharpie or some more work etching, carving or drilling you can make your own custom dice with any numbering. And they come as D4, D6, D8, D10, D12 and D20.

All of those however share one big flaw mentioned by JCHendee - they ar not standard. You have to go to lengths to actually get them. If you loose them or forget to take them to your friends house they are not easily replaced. I've been there - it's no fun when you have all game evening planned and prepeared and no dice to play. I've learned from my mistakes and now I keep all dice in the same box as a game. And I personally love custom and non-standard dice (I actually collect them ) so any and all of those would be welcome in my Talisman games.

I like the idea of this, but there is just some problems with this d4 rule. Here is some I could come up with:

• When you are enslaved in the Temple you have to roll d6. Maybe you can say you are free on a 3 and 4 instead.
• Some character special abilities. Take the Trolls healing ability for instance. Okey you could say he heals on a 4

That was just some I could come up with, but I am sure there will be more things to quistion on. That is why I think it will be getting very complex to introduce d4 rule. It may work, but needs a very good clarifiacation card due to the above changes etc.

cheer

I didn't even thought of that. Mr. Brogger is right of course. After quick check I found that Special Abilities of two characters are triggered by roll of 6 for movement - Troll's regeneration and Leprechaun's teleportation. I didn't check but I'm pretty sure that there are several cards that have the same trigger. That might mess up the game pretty badly. If we were to use true D4 and allow the trigger to be "4" the probablity of it happening would almost double (ok, ok, so it's exactly 25% against 16.6...% ). That seems hardly fair for the other players. I don't see the problem with a Temple though. You could roll D6 to get free and then D4 to see how far you actually go.

There wouldn't be any problem while using a realm die or any other modified D6. The probablity of rolling the highest score (providing that there is only one "4" on the die) would be the same as with regular D6.

Yay! We've just found a valid and strong argument against this ugly tetrahedron . Long live D6 and it's many mutations .

This issue with the Temple is a good point. Hadn't even thought about that, but then having imprisonment (at a Temple?) based on a movement roll is a hinky mechanic anyway. Better to just rule it as "miss a turn" and be done with it.

Dice, dice, dice... oh my. I think overall, I might still go with a D6 and a basic bit of math, if an alternative movement range is used in the Middle Region. Overall, it's only the late teens and early twenties players whoever whine about it; the young ones don't mind at all and it is a bit of exercise for the mind. Roll a D6, divide by 2, and round down or up....

• if down, the rolls produced would be 1,1,1,2,2,3
• if up, the rolls produced would be 1,1,2,2,3,3

Rounding up seems the better choice. However rounding down could be preferable to some who want to decrease range of movement AND thereby make the Middle Region more dangerous by all of the spaces you would almost have to encounter. Since a d6 is used, the roll still works at the Temple; the actual number is there to reference. Sticking to D6 also then can be used for cards like the Horse; again apply the divide and round the result. (Imagine having to rule on all those cards that have die modifiers or multipliers on alternative die types as one moves inward on the board.)

Either way, the range of movement as you move inward becomes thus:

• Outer Region, 1-6
• Middle Region, 1-3
• Inner Region, 1

For such cards as the Horse, the range would be:

• Outer Region, 2-12
• Middle Region, 1-6
• Inner Region, 1
  

Overall, I might even think one could rule that "realms" (Dungeon, Forest, etc.) should use whatever alternate movement range is established for the Middle Region. I for one am sick of seeing people race through the Dungeon, even if it has more spaces than in the 2E/3E days. Considering it is a potential shortcut to the CoC or at least nearer to it, characters who want to use it for that should be prepared to grind away in there and get pounded.

And applying alternative roll movement to the Middle Region means being slowed down versus those moving through realms towards a potential shortcut.

I appreciate there are cards/effects that currently work with a d6, but these are easily adapted for work with a d4 or average die.

You would be enslaved at the temple until you rolled a 3 or 4, which would still be a 50% chance.

The Troll and Leprechaun can take advantage of their abilities if they roll a 4 instead. This could be argued away that in the more mountainous terrain of the Inner Region, these two should get a bit of a boost.

Someone using a Horse would roll 2d4 etc.

It would not take a lot of doing to make some overlays or adapted cards for use in the game with this rule.

Maybe this is a bit isn't very elegant but you could roll a d6 as usual. If it's a 6 for those with special abilities then the ability kicks in. If it's 1-4 then you move that many spaces. If it's a 5 or 6 (without special abilities) then you just reroll until you get 1-4. Special abilities only kick in on the first roll. If you choose to use fate once your roll is final, you start over.

The end result means Troll regen etc remain unafected at 1 in 6 moves, but all space moves 1-4 have 25% chance.

I admit I only gave this a few minutes thought, so there may still be flaws in the idea, other than sheer inelegance of course.

In general though, while I like the idea of reduced movement in the middle region I'm also not sure if this region tends to be a little underused as it is. It seems to have considerably increased risk (+2 enemies on runes, Black Knight, Desert, Cursed Glade) but not much of an increased return with just having 1 3 card space. Maybe I'm missing some other benefit of going there other than perhaps avoiding other characters?

Another idea is to simply use D6-1 (with minimum of 1). You then get the outcome 1,1,2,3,4 and 5 which has an average of 2,67 which is slightly more than a D4 (2,5) but not very much.

Advantages:
* You can use the same dice as the rest of the game, you do not need to use D4s (which I also don't like using - if they had rounded the edges more it would roll much better) but still move slower.

* It makes the oasis twice as dangerous as the base game (as a side effect it makes water bottles a little less worthless)

* The same chance to roll a natural "1" and "6" as ordinary movement - you don't have to change any rules.

Disadvantages:
* You do have to apply maths (can't get more elementary than this though)

* You do not keep the analogy with the Outer Region (6 spaces between corners -> D6, 4 spaces between corners -> D4

SIDE NOTE: There is a way to make a better D4 than those horrid little pyramids. In ancient Mesopotamia they already had them. Find yourself a piece of hardwood at any craft or hardware store that is 1/4" x 1/4" (or whatever dimension) and at least 1" long (some were up to a foot long but that's not convenient). Sand the ends to semi-roundness if you prefer (the longer the die or "rod" the less this is necessary) and mark the sides 1 to 4. You might sand the four edges just a little too. It will roll off the hand and across the play surface. D3 and D5 dice of this same kind have also been discovered in archeological digs. There were even D2s where the cross section of one looks like a fat lozenge.

For marking 1 to 4, use a broad nail or a narrow piece of metal of small diameter with a blunter end. Press or tap dimples, 1 through 4, in rows on the sides. If you wish, fill these dimples with paint (not ink) and then fine sand the sides to remove excess paint. Stain or dye to color if you wish. With a 1 ft. length cut into 2" pieces, you'll have 6 D4s that will roll much better than that standard D4. Overall, they will be considerably cheaper (and easier) to acquire and fix up than the pyramids... so you needn't worry about losing them or how many you need.

See this Wiki for a little picture of what I mean. The "caltrop" form of D4 was one of the worst ideas for dice ever seen, though it is also ancient - perhaps a testament to how humans cling to form over function. It was found as the dice form used in the oldest board game ever discovered (The Royal Game of Ur), but instead of numbers on the sides, some points were colored; rolling multiple die, you counted colored points up, and determined the number of points you had for moving or starting draughts on the board. You will also notice the points are very blunt, moreso than even some of the modern ones with cropped points. They really knew what they were doing back then.

ADDENDUM: If you only need one 4D, you can also consider getting a small Dreidel and sanding and remarking it. For those who want to go with a psuedo "realm" style 6-sided (and who don't have such from an old version of Talisma), there are plenty of blank D6 around, including ones with indented surfaces for smoother application of printed stickers/labels that won't affect rolling.

Interesting thoughts there JC, and to add -

Crystal Caste makes a range of "barrel dice" that includes a d4.

Koplow and Chessex seems to make an interesting "triple d4" which is a d12 with 1 - 4 repeated three times.

I am sure there will be something like a double d4 about too...

There is the standard RPG "pyramid" die, though as mentioned it actually rolls like a pyramid.

I like Hinnyboy's suggestion of d6-1, but still think that it should be a d4 of some sort to match the board layout.

I actually think I am going to have a try with a Realm die and see how it works out.

Events that require a 6 normally will be triggered by a 4.

A 1 is still a 1 but can occur more often (1 in 3!) So lots of Reaping and Toading and um... Icing!

Enslaved people will have to roll a 3 or 4 to get free, though on a Realm die this is actually a 1 in 3 chance as opposed to 1 in 2 as normal!

Entering the Middle Region via the Sentinel will require you to stop on the Hills space, in line with entering the Middle Region through the Portal of Power.

This should make the Middle Region more of a challenge.

I've been thinking more on the realm die myself, though I haven't had a chance to bring up to the crew. I'll find out what they think before we begin testing it out. If it is a go, we'll require it to be used in all realms (expansion boards) as well, since otherwise those will become even more of shortcut vs going the regular route. A D6 (or more) in the dungeon vs a D6 and then D4/realm in the main board doesn't work.