12 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

You gotta brush up on your flying, fam. FAA lets you fan out pretty effectively and mask where the clump is going to be.

You can't mask your approach from a list that moves at PS 1. At the very best, Airen will be a little out of position. Butyou're still facing 2 sets of munitions minimum, and a bomb.

Best chance is to try and rush range 1 of Nym and wipe him in a turn, but you take a bomb at range 3 on the approach and then get one X-wing PS-killed.

6 hours ago, Bucknife said:

If I bring a rock list, and I face a paper list, I should probably lose.

But if I bring rock and paper to a paper matchup, I'll probably have a decent chance.

Finally, if I bring rock, paper AND scissors to a paper matchup, the other guy should have a really rough game .... as long as I don't FEED his paper my rock, and as long as I keep my scissors in his face.

Welcome to Xwing, ladies and gents.

See, that'd work fine in a vacuum, but X-wing is a point-based system with incredibly asymmetrical play. The game's a lot closer to what you describe in 300 point games (without huge ships) because you can actually afford to diversify.

But look at every good list throughout the years (that doesn't involve god-Jumps). They don't diversify. Palpatine was about aces. TIE swarms were about jousting. Ghost/Fenn is about arc-dodging super-accurate fat turrets. You don't win tournaments by diversifying. Tournaments are won by picking a mechanic and taking it as far as you possibly can, in the hopes that a scissors list doesn't have enough time to cut through all your paper in the pathetically short 75 minute rounds, thus winning on points.

8 hours ago, Bucknife said:

If I bring a rock list, and I face a paper list, I should probably lose.

But if I bring rock and paper to a paper matchup, I'll probably have a decent chance.

Finally, if I bring rock, paper AND scissors Miranda to a paper matchup, the other guy should have a really rough game .... as long as I don't FEED his paper my rock, and as long as I keep my scissors in his face.

Welcome to Xwing, ladies and gents.

.

8 hours ago, Bucknife said:

1 hour ago, Astech said:

You can't mask your approach from a list that moves at PS 1. At the very best, Airen will be a little out of position. Butyou're still facing 2 sets of munitions minimum, and a bomb.

Best chance is to try and rush range 1 of Nym and wipe him in a turn, but you take a bomb at range 3 on the approach and then get one X-wing PS-killed.

Ugh. This just isn't true. You can absolutely mask where the clump is going to be, and adjust that with FAA to avoid eating a big Bomblet deployment. Genius doesn't work with Traj. Sim. anymore. It's pretty straight-forward. You're going to lose an X-Wing to the alpha strike, but Airen or Wedge is probably going down and once the strike is done things get much more manageable. 2 X vs. Nym is doable, and depending on how positioning works out he might go down earlier than that.

I really, really don't know what game you're playing or watching if you think 30 maneuverable HP and 15 red dice just can't win a matchup.

7 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Ugh. This just isn't true. You can absolutely mask where the clump is going to be, and adjust that with FAA to avoid eating a big Bomblet deployment. Genius doesn't work with Traj. Sim. anymore. It's pretty straight-forward. You're going to lose an X-Wing to the alpha strike, but Airen or Wedge is probably going down and once the strike is done things get much more manageable. 2 X vs. Nym is doable, and depending on how positioning works out he might go down earlier than that.

I really, really don't know what game you're playing or watching if you think 30 maneuverable HP and 15 red dice just can't win a matchup.

If you can kill Airen in a turn it means at least you had 4 X-wings engaging at the same time on the same target. If you're not eating a bomblet it means they're coming in at speed 3-4 from different angles, which means you're at turn 4-5 of the game. Only an incompetent alpha player would let you get that far, but let's play it out. Play-by-play in the spoiler at the end of the comment, to reduce clutter.

But I can accept that you disagree. Here's an alternative: Dash/Poe. Poe wins against 3 X-wings in the endgame, especially if he's behind them. Dash wins against 4 of them. As soon as 1 X-wing dies it's game over, and FAA doesn't help against Dash, especially the LW/Rey version that laughs at single-modded 3-die attacks. There are so many lists that will just ruin 5 X-wings, and so many more that 5 X-wings can blitz.

1 minute ago, Astech said:

If you can kill Airen in a turn it means at least you had 4 X-wings engaging at the same time on the same target. If you're not eating a bomblet it means they're coming in at speed 3-4 from different angles, which means you're at turn 4-5 of the game. Only an incompetent alpha player would let you get that far, but let's play it out. Play-by-play in the spoiler at the end of the comment, to reduce clutter.

But I can accept that you disagree. Here's an alternative: Dash/Poe. Poe wins against 3 X-wings in the endgame, especially if he's behind them. Dash wins against 4 of them. As soon as 1 X-wing dies it's game over, and FAA doesn't help against Dash, especially the LW/Rey version that laughs at single-modded 3-die attacks. There are so many lists that will just ruin 5 X-wings, and so many more that 5 X-wings can blitz.

Your 4 initial X-wings engage, managing to entirely avoid bomblets and are in groups of 2. One of them dies to 2 shots (harpoon and plasma), and the other is severely damaged by another harpoon. In return, their lucky rolls at R3 from single-modded shots manage to kill Airen.

On the next turn, your damaged X-wing is destroyed, either by a bomblet and Wedge's shot, or both Nym and Wedge's shot. You then fire back with three single-modded shots at the most. You're either stripping Wedge's shields and 1 hull or removing shields from Nym.

The turn after that, something's eating at least one bomblet, and probably two, given that Nym's been saving one from exploding. The X-wings spend an entire turn turning around, and allow Nym to gain a target lock for his second harpoon, and Wedge to come about, matching the X-wings.

Next turn, Nym fires his second harpoon, and alongside Wedge either kills another X-wing or severely damages 2 of them. Bomblets continue to ruin the movement plans of the X-wings.

Finally, Nym and Wedge kill the third X-wing, and you're left with mostly healthy ships with strong modifiers against 2 generics with single-modded shots.

And that's one of the best scenarios, where the alpha player is incompetent and lets the X-wings set up for 4-5 turns first. If they set up mid-field, the X-wings have 2 turns maximum to move around, leaving them still clumped rather predictably.

This is just not true. It just isn't. None of this. I'm not God's gift to X-Wing or anything, but I can guarantee you that I can consistently pull out 50% or better on the matchups listed with 5X. I have no idea how you think the X-Wing player is setting up, but you can be converging from different angles by round 3 at the latest if you'd like, and you're much faster than Nym and Airen and can leverage that to set up a favorable position. Statistically at Range 3 you're averaging 9 hits with 4 X-Wings (the surviving members) against 4.5 evades. Airen goes down with average dice. If you can set up a R2 engage, Wedge goes down. You WILL lose an X-Wing, but the leftovers are enough to finish the job, and none of those ships likes facing up against a killbox.

Also, what world is this where Poe is just "getting behind" 3 X-Wings with nothing they can do about it? I don't get it. I really don't. I'm an okay player. I've flown against good players while rocking 3-5 ship heavy swarms for a good while now. Give me 3 X-Wings against Poe and I will take that for me every. Single. Time.

X-Wings are no Silencer, but 5X makes up for the flexibility of 3S with overwhelming math. Figure out how to fly a heavy swarm, and in the meantime, stop telling people that actually know how to fly them that it isn't possible to do it.

12 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Something like this?

No.

Not even remotely like this.

On 6/29/2018 at 6:58 AM, Jedu said:

I don't consider paper-rock-scissors tendency as a drawback. I think it should be this way - for sake of balance. Every single list/ship should have a "natural" enemy, to which it dies instantly, but it also should have an enemy, which it can instantly beat. The third category contains enemies, which can compete with the list on more or less equal terms.

If there were not such mechanism in the game, there would always be a risk, which we've faced so many times already - the risk of developing a list, which can instantly beat almost everything and at the same time is vulnerable to almost nobody.

I don't feel that it's right for any list to have a "dies instantly"counter because why even play the match out at that point? I do agree that archetypes should have natural enemies with an advantage, but it should still be a fight. Otherwise one particular play style will become slightly more powerful and *boom* you can't play 3 health ships anymore.

1 hour ago, ThinkingB said:

I don't feel that it's right for any list to have a "dies instantly"counter because why even play the match out at that point? I do agree that archetypes should have natural enemies with an advantage, but it should still be a fight. Otherwise one particular play style will become slightly more powerful and *boom* you can't play 3 health ships anymore.

Yeah, I totally agree with you - I've been writing my post in a hurry and as I'm not a native English speaker, I couldn't find a better phrase than "dies instantly" I mean that there should always be a chance to win, there should be natural enemies, but balanced to the point that a skilled player can outfly them.

I've lost a lot of interest in 1.0 ever since 2.0 was announced and it just gets worse. Still, I think that perhaps I would like to play something. I read about all these tournament lists and the game just looks so **** toxic. If it weren't for 2.0 then I'd be out of here. The current game has gone to the birds.