I have long had issues with the space combat Rules as Written (RAW). Who hasn’t? Anyway, there have been numerous threads on possible solutions, many of which I have based my changes on. So now I wanted to share those changes, and SUBMIT THEM FOR YOUR JUDGEMENT! In all seriousness maybe someone else will like them, but ultimately I am not saying my way is best, it’s just what works for me.

*So forgive the short incoming rant on my disdain for the piloting RAW. *

First: I treat every space combat as a chase. There is no fly/drive maneuver. Competitive piloting check at the top of each round.

Piloting and Gunnery Houserules :

For Piloting : Difficulty pool is = Terrain as set difficulty + [speed-1]. Upgrade the lower pool. Ex. Dense asteroid field 3P, going Speed 1 = PPP. or as Speed 5 = PRRR

• I ditched the speed+1/2 silhouette Bull-S* because silhouette is already in the piloting pool....its called handling ! Indirectly RAW has you adding handling twice then. Also, the pools RAW are ridiculous even at moderate speed, and the setbacks are laughable. RAW navigating the maw only adds+3 setbacks? Really? No increased difficulty or danger? Sure, okay.
• Anyway, using this the difficulty going speed 1 is the base, and is just however difficult it is to pilot through the terrain normally. Then (AND I CANT STRESS THIS ENOUGH!) just like in the rest of the game, the pool is then modified by other things: speed (additional danger=upgrade) and then distractions (environmental effects that modify the task=setbacks).
• Piloting through terrain IS the task, everything else modifies that. It’s no different than picking a lock of hard difficulty (that's the task), and upgrading it because it’s got an alarm (that's the danger), and then setback for your tool being bent or because you are in a hurry (that's a modified environment).

For Gunnery : The RAW are better and closer to normal. So, Difficulty pool = Silhouette difference (CRB pg.235) But then relative speeds of the other ships add setbacks/boosts. +/-1 for each speed difference between you and your target. IE hitting the small ship is always hard, having it go faster makes it more challenging.

• Note: I tried toying with making the range bands determine difficulty (like ground combat) and then +/- difficulty based upon size difference , but its almost identical except its easier to hit everything at short range, and impossible at Long. So whatever, my players cant remember difficulty for range bands anyway , so might as well just have a set difficulty.

In Summary, in my opinion this puts the dice pool building BACK to match how it works in the rest of the game and really helps my players (and myself) understand how to build the pool and modify it. I get where the design team was coming from logically but I just don't think it needed to be so much different from the rest of the rules. Basically, for my "house rule" all I did was ditch the special space rules and then use normal rules for determining pool difficulty, upgrading and setbacks.

Have you had a look at Genesys yet? It's FFG's generic Narrative Dice game and they have revised the vehicle rules. These changed rules seem to target your concerns.

• The Fly/Drive manoeuvre has been completely removed. Instead, you move an automatic number of range bands based on your current speed: 1–2 you move 2 range bands, speed 3–4 is 3 range bands and speed 5 is 4 range bands (5 is the max speed in Genesys )
• The difficulty for the Dangerous Driving action is equal to your vehicle's silhouette, upgraded by speed (speed 1–2 is no upgrade, speed 3–4 is upgraded once and speed 5 is upgraded twice)
• The difficulty of Gunnery attacks is based on range, +1 difficulty if the target is 2 or more silhouette smaller than you or -1 if the target is 2 or more silhouettes larger than you

Too bad Genesys didn't also get rid of "speed".

3 hours ago, c__beck said:

Have you had a look at Genesys yet? It's FFG's generic Narrative Dice game and they have revised the vehicle rules. These changed rules seem to target your concerns.

• The Fly/Drive manoeuvre has been completely removed. Instead, you move an automatic number of range bands based on your current speed: 1–2 you move 2 range bands, speed 3–4 is 3 range bands and speed 5 is 4 range bands (5 is the max speed in Genesys )
• The difficulty for the Dangerous Driving action is equal to your vehicle's silhouette, upgraded by speed (speed 1–2 is no upgrade, speed 3–4 is upgraded once and speed 5 is upgraded twice)
• The difficulty of Gunnery attacks is based on range, +1 difficulty if the target is 2 or more silhouette smaller than you or -1 if the target is 2 or more silhouettes larger than you

I don't have the book so I tried to look into the changes, but due to copyrights I couldn't find specifics. Thank you for providing the highlights.

While it definitely sounds better with fly drive removed. However I still am bothered that the difficultly pool uses silhouette, and then essentially adds it to the pool again due to adding "handling" to your piloting roll. For the gunnery, perhaps i am misunderstanding or I wrote my description poorly, but isn't that RAW for star wars ground combat? If so, like i mentioned above it would indeed just make more sense to have it all be the same.

1 minute ago, ThreeAM said:

I don't have the book so I tried to look into the changes, but due to copyrights I couldn't find specifics. Thank you for providing the highlights.

While it definitely sounds better with fly drive removed. However I still am bothered that the difficultly pool uses silhouette, and then essentially adds it to the pool again due to adding "handling" to your piloting roll. For the gunnery, perhaps i am misunderstanding or I wrote my description poorly, but isn't that RAW for star wars ground combat? If so, like i mentioned above it would indeed just make more sense to have it all be the same.

Handling and Silhouette are not the same, though. Silhouette is size, bulk and weight. Handling is how well it responds to pilot input. Sure, smaller silhouette vehicles usually have better handling, but it's not a guarantee. You can have vehicles of the same silhouette with a variety of different handling.

For example, the B-wing has a handling of -1 while a TIE interceptor has a +3 handling, but they're the same silhouette.

5 minutes ago, c__beck said:

Handling and Silhouette are not the same, though. Silhouette is size, bulk and weight. Handling is how well it responds to pilot input. Sure, smaller silhouette vehicles usually have better handling, but it's not a guarantee. You can have vehicles of the same silhouette with a variety of different handling.

For example, the B-wing has a handling of -1 while a TIE interceptor has a +3 handling, but they're the same silhouette.

That range tends to get narrower and closer to the setback side of things the larger the silhouette, but I agree with this sentiment. But I understand OP's criticism of the dice pool formula in RAW.

3 hours ago, whafrog said:

Too bad Genesys didn't also get rid of "speed".

What issues do you have with the way speed is handled?

3 hours ago, c__beck said:

What issues do you have with the way speed is handled?

First, it's inconsistent with the personal combat rules. I'm sure a nexu can outrun me, but you'd never know it from the rules, there is only one speed. You can tweak things with the chase rules and giving faster critters boosts or special considerations on their athletics, but otherwise getting from A to B is resource management, not counting movement squares.

Second, it's implemented poorly and doesn't work with the sensors and shooting ranges. In theory, A-Wings could dive in and out of their opponent's sensor ranges and the enemy would never know where they are, which is silly.

But the main reason is it's inconsistent with the media. Nobody ever outruns anyone in a space battle, there are only a few options: hide in space debris, jump to hyperspace, or get lost in the terrain or clouds of a planet. The "fastest ship in the galaxy" couldn't outrun the TIEs in E5, or even a Star Destroyer. Han had to buy time by diving into an asteroid field. Watch any episode of TCW or Rebels...nobody ever just keeps flying away from the enemy until their lost in the distance, but with these rules that would be the most sensible decision.

If they wanted to keep the game abstract, dispense with Speed and just use Handling and the chase rules. If they wanted to include speed and other tactical elements, then they should have created a way to use X-Wing with the rules. This half-measure/mix of both worlds doesn't work.

10 hours ago, c__beck said:

The Fly/Drive manoeuvre has been completely removed. Instead, you move an automatic number of range bands based on your current speed: 1–2 you move 2 range bands, speed 3–4 is 3 range bands and speed 5 is 4 range bands (5 is the max speed in Genesys )  

This actually doesn't sit well with me, and I appreciate the way SWRPG handles it. Since it's happening in an abstracted 3D space, I assume the pilots are zigging and zagging and circling and staying in their range bands when not using a Fly Maneuver.

1 hour ago, whafrog said:

otherwise getting from A to B is resource management, not counting movement squares

I actually prefer resource management to counting movement squares

1 hour ago, whafrog said:

Second, it's implemented poorly and doesn't work with the sensors and shooting ranges.

Really good point and I think I might exploit this the next time I run a space combat.

1 hour ago, whafrog said:

The "fastest ship in the galaxy" couldn't outrun the TIEs in E5, or even a Star Destroyer.

I think this is a reference to the Falcon's .5 Hyperdrive, and not the sublights?

1 hour ago, whafrog said:

nobody ever just keeps flying away from the enemy until their lost in the distance, but with these rules that would be the most sensible decision.

Also a good point: They don't end fights in the media by "running away" because it isn't "cool", but it could definitely be an option in the games. As a matter of fact, my group flashed their aft at an ISD on the rim once.

If we go by RAW, speed doesn't even factor into a chase in open space: It's just Simple competitive Piloting checks. However, the Description for the Piloting skills state that chases use opposed checks. Neither mention the speed of the vehicles involved.

1 hour ago, whafrog said:

then they should have created a way to use X-Wing with the rules.

I'm actually really glad they did NOT do this, but am happy to see other people attempting to integrate X-Wing miniatures rules into their own SWRPG games as it suits them.

But yes, outside of chases/races and navigating hazardous terrain, Speed only matters in space if you are trying to execute maneuvers such as "Evasive Maneuvers", "Stay on Target", or "Gain The Advantage" (granted that last one gets used a lot). Thanks for bringing this to my attention. How would you change it? Use the difference in speed scores to grant boost/setback dice for particular maneuvers and actions?

23 hours ago, ThreeAM said:

First: I treat every space combat as a chase. There is no fly/drive maneuver. Competitive piloting check at the top of each round.

How does Speed factor into this check in say, open space? Does it factor in at all?

The Genesys Speed rules make sense to me (even the Forced Movement rule, but I wouldn't use it under normal circumstances), but now I'm wondering what space combat would look like with Speed removed entirely (as it seems to only matter in a few cases, anyhow).

This post has given me a lot to think about. Thanks, everyone

24 minutes ago, panpolyqueergeek said:

This actually doesn't sit well with me, and I appreciate the way SWRPG handles it. Since it's happening in an abstracted 3D space, I assume the pilots are zigging and zagging and circling and staying in their range bands when not using a Fly Maneuver.

The rules seem to indicate a TIE fighter freshly 'dropped off the rack' will spend 5 rounds just throttling up, making absolutely no actual physical progress in the meantime (is it still in the hanger?): It really can't afford to take double-maneuvers without a really good reason with such a low strain threshold, high maximum speed, and no astromech.

Even more extreme are the 'Personal Vehicle' options like the Jet Pack with System Strain Thresholds of 3 or so: You can only get one 'double maneuver' round out of them before you are in danger of a breakdown (the absolute worst are the boots that take one strain each round to represent fuel expenditure).

• Assuming you start from a dead stop, you need to take one round to accelerate to speed 1
• Starting on round two, you can actually start to move.
• Once you reach your destination and want to land, you need to take one additional round to actually decelerate back to speed 0.

Personally, I just don't think 'Accelerate / Decelerate' as a distinct maneuver works very well

3 minutes ago, Ominovin said:

The rules seem to indicate a TIE fighter freshly 'dropped off the rack' will spend 5 rounds just throttling up, making absolutely no actual physical progress in the meantime (is it still in the hanger?): It really can't afford to take double-maneuvers without a really good reason with such a low strain threshold, high maximum speed, and no astromech.

Even more extreme are the 'Personal Vehicle' options like the Jet Pack with System Strain Thresholds of 3 or so: You can only get one 'double maneuver' round out of them before you are in danger of a breakdown (the absolute worst are the boots that take one strain each round to represent fuel expenditure).

• Assuming you start from a dead stop, you need to take one round to accelerate to speed 1
• Starting on round two, you can actually start to move.
• Once you reach your destination and want to land, you need to take one additional round to actually decelerate back to speed 0.

Personally, I just don't think 'Accelerate / Decelerate' as a distinct maneuver works very well

What part of the rules suggest they throttle up for 5 rounds? Minions can't voluntarily take strain, so double maneuvers usually won't happen unless the pilot trades their action for it.

As a GM, I actually appreciate the economy of actions that the jetpack and boots require. This makes them useful in specific situations, but not useful enough that everyone in the party will want to wear jetpacks and boots and use them in every physical encounter/combat. If my players were really upset about how they operate, I would try to work with them to maybe design an improved version that is still balanced and doesn't break the game (even something as simple as a Deluxe model that has more strain). Of course, NPC's will also have access to the same tech.

4 hours ago, whafrog said:

But the main reason is it's inconsistent with the media. Nobody ever outruns anyone in a space battle, there are only a few options: hide in space debris, jump to hyperspace, or get lost in the terrain or clouds of a planet. The "fastest ship in the galaxy" couldn't outrun the TIEs in E5, or even a Star Destroyer. Han had to buy time by diving into an asteroid field. Watch any episode of TCW or Rebels...nobody ever just keeps flying away from the enemy until their lost in the distance, but with these rules that would be the most sensible decision.

If they wanted to keep the game abstract, dispense with Speed and just use Handling and the chase rules. If they wanted to include speed and other tactical elements, then they should have created a way to use X-Wing with the rules. This half-measure/mix of both worlds doesn't work.

Couldn't agree more. In Star Wars, or any pulp, it's really just 1) Do you want to fight? and 2) How good of a pilot are you? So here are public thanks for posting about this a while back, drawing attention to better ways to go about it all.

3 hours ago, panpolyqueergeek said:

How would you change it? Use the difference in speed scores to grant boost/setback dice for particular maneuvers and actions?

I actually wrote up some "Speedless Space Combat" rules a while back. If you're interested, PM me and I'll send you a copy.

16 hours ago, panpolyqueergeek said:

What part of the rules suggest they throttle up for 5 rounds? Minions can't voluntarily take strain, so double maneuvers usually won't happen unless the pilot trades their action for it.

• A TIE fighter on its rack in a hanger bay is presumably at Speed 0.
• Once 'dropped' from rack, there are a limited number of options for reaching speed 5:
  • Take 'Accelerate / Decelerate' maneuver 5 times, requiring either
    • 5 rounds of taking this maneuver, or
    • an excessive amount of strain due to taking two vehicle maneuvers in one round.
  • Take the 'Punch It' maneuver, which will burn more than half of your System Strain Threshold in one round while somehow still not actually moving toward your destination.

This issue applies to all vehicles, but TIEs make a great example due to their particularly horrible 'Strain Threshold' vs. 'Maximum Speed' ratio and their 'single pilot only' layout.

• An X-Wing, for example, has the advantages of a slightly higher threshold and an astromech droid that should be able to make 'Damage Control' checks while the pilot focuses on flying, ironically giving it much better acceleration on a practical level.

Making either 'accelearate/decelerate' or movement a 'free action' once per turn just seems like it might work a little better...

37 minutes ago, Ominovin said:

• A TIE fighter on its rack in a hanger bay is presumably at Speed 0.
• Once 'dropped' from rack, there are a limited number of options for reaching speed 5:
  • Take 'Accelerate / Decelerate' maneuver 5 times, requiring either
    • 5 rounds of taking this maneuver, or
    • an excessive amount of strain due to taking two vehicle maneuvers in one round.
  • Take the 'Punch It' maneuver, which will burn more than half of your System Strain Threshold in one round while somehow still not actually moving toward your destination.

This issue applies to all vehicles, but TIEs make a great example due to their particularly horrible 'Strain Threshold' vs. 'Maximum Speed' ratio and their 'single pilot only' layout.

• An X-Wing, for example, has the advantages of a slightly higher threshold and an astromech droid that should be able to make 'Damage Control' checks while the pilot focuses on flying, ironically giving it much better acceleration on a practical level.

Making either 'accelearate/decelerate' or movement a 'free action' once per turn just seems like it might work a little better...

I understand the criticism, but I'm okay with playing out such a situation as per RAW. Narrative rounds and combat rounds both handle time in different, abstract scales. If the PC's aren't engaged in combat, there's no reason I could not narrate the Ties being up to speed by the time they intercept the PC's. If the PC's decide to flee, the Ties could give chase because as noted; the chase rules in open space do not rely on the speed of the craft involved. And if they are in combat, say Long range or more from an ISD, I would be okay with the ISD giving the Ties the order to PUNCH IT to close the gap. 4-5 strain isn't much of a consideration when they're going to be taken down in one shot, anyhow.

If sticking strictly to an (already abstracted) RAW, none of the above might be ideal, but it's all situational to me. If it serves the story and game best for an NPC minion group of Ties to swarm the PC's at speed 5, that's what will happen. I don't think that's unfair to my players, and I don't think it's necessarily a failing of the system. Of course: YMMV and def do whatever is best for your table.

2 hours ago, Ominovin said:

This issue applies to all vehicles, but TIEs make a great example due to their particularly horrible 'Strain Threshold' vs. 'Maximum Speed' ratio and their 'single pilot only' layout.

When I was still using Speed, I considered letting starfighters Accelerate by an amount equal to their Handling without system strain. Speed 0 to 5 still required Punch it. But it puts slow boats like the Y-Wing at an even more serious disadvantage.

I will say this much for the official 'accelerate' rules: It does kinda explain why Han Solo wasn't surprised by how few TIE Fighters tried to stop his escape from the Death Star. Assuming he 'Punched It' right away and then double-moved at least a couple of times (trusting his System Strain Threshold to hold out long enough to get clear and make a Hyperspace jump), additional TIEs launched from the station would have no chance of ever catching up (assuming an immediate 'Punch It' for 5 strain, their second round of 'double maneuver' would cause a breakdown)...

Of course, this also means those picket fighters probably should have only gotten one attack each at best before being left in the (space) dust: Double-moving to keep up requires the TIE pilots to either take personal strain (which they generally can't do) or convert their action (which means they can't shoot): I guess the Falcon was no longer double-moving at that point...