Interesting article. X-Wing was not mentioned, but miniatures were.

https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/39296/icv2-interview-asmodee-execs-counterfeiting

Wow, scary faces

Thanks for the link. Crazy. I wish they had gone a bit more into how to spot counterfeits.

One more reason to support your FLGS I suppose.

I don't think X-wing is at risk of having counterfeit stuff any time soon, unless somebody working at the actual factory can run some batches after hours or something.

If you have the technology to cast X-wing miniatures you can make way more cash by casting 40k miniatures, and that also means you don't need to arrange a painter, cards and cardboard.

Not to downplay anything, but it sounds like mostly mainstream type games are the focus of the counterfeiters. It's a sticky widget. We want legitimate product for as cheap as they could make them, but to do so they have to be produced in countries where this kind of thievery is common.

I wonder how much it would cost for a small ship expansion (after production & distribution, etc.) if it was all produced domestically? What would a $20 dollar ship now cost? $40? $60? More?

2 hours ago, Force Majeure said:

Not to downplay anything, but it sounds like mostly mainstream type games are the focus of the counterfeiters. It's a sticky widget. We want legitimate product for as cheap as they could make them, but to do so they have to be produced in countries where this kind of thievery is common.

I wonder how much it would cost for a small ship expansion (after production & distribution, etc.) if it was all produced domestically? What would a $20 dollar ship now cost? $40? $60? More?

Depends. The most expensive thing is still human labor, and then shipping. If you can make robots do the work, plus you can cut the shipping time, it should be fine.

2 hours ago, Force Majeure said:

Not to downplay anything, but it sounds like mostly mainstream type games are the focus of the counterfeiters. It's a sticky widget. We want legitimate product for as cheap as they could make them, but to do so they have to be produced in countries where this kind of thievery is common.

I wonder how much it would cost for a small ship expansion (after production & distribution, etc.) if it was all produced domestically? What would a $20 dollar ship now cost? $40? $60? More?

The price is always what you are willing to pay, based on their cost curve, so as to maximise profits. If all the items were to be produced in the USA, I doubt you would see the price change by much, only their profit margins...

2 hours ago, Force Majeure said:

Not to downplay anything, but it sounds like mostly mainstream type games are the focus of the counterfeiters. It's a sticky widget. We want legitimate product for as cheap as they could make them, but to do so they have to be produced in countries where this kind of thievery is common.

I wonder how much it would cost for a small ship expansion (after production & distribution, etc.) if it was all produced domestically? What would a $20 dollar ship now cost? $40? $60? More?

$20, but there'd be a profit margin squeeze along the supply chain.

15 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Depends. The most expensive thing is still human labor, and then shipping. If you can make robots do the work, plus you can cut the shipping time, it should be fine.

Its more complex then that, every part in the process benefits from cheaper labor from material to electricity. Even fully automated its probably considerably cheaper to produce in china.

Based on how long GW sold their mini's for supid amounts of money I think at least some, though by no means all, of the cost increase would be passed along to the consumer.

The real question is if X-Wing would even exist? As a higher price point, whether at the end or anywhere along in the middle would discourage that node in the chain from purchase, would possibly preclude it from hitting critical mass.

3 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Its more complex then that, every part in the process benefits from cheaper labor from material to electricity. Even fully automated its probably considerably cheaper to produce in china.

At the scales we're talking? For sure.

Once Asmodee merges with the US government after aquiring the controlling stakes in the EU, and makes X-wing a compulsory school subject for all high school students under penalty of exsanguination?

The automated method will be cheaper after all.

So if the "counterfeiters" can purchase the products cheaply, why doesn't Asmodee purchase from the counterfeiter as well and sell the product cheaper?? Me thinks the "counterfeiter" and the Official supplier are probably the same company... If not I would love to see a Counterfeit miniature and a "REAL" one side by side...I notice they didn't address how to tell them apart, probably because you cant... Counterfeiter runs another batch of molds sells them directly online for a cheaper price than assmodee but they make money because of dealer markup and no middleman...

Mmm... they do talk about the differences between making a mold from an existing piece and the counterfeit product being around 10% smaller than the legitimate one due to shrinking that normally occurs as part of the manufacturing process as an example of fake product vs. official. So that's one way to tell them apart.

"Usually, what the counterfeiters will do, is to use an actual plastic miniature from a real game as the “master”. What ends up happening during the tooling process is that the new replica is going to shrink a little bit. What you therefore see, typically, from a counterfeit product is a plastic miniature that's maybe 10 percent smaller, 15 percent smaller than the original. That is something that happens naturally when you're going through the whole tooling and injection process."

17 hours ago, Swedge said:

So if the "counterfeiters" can purchase the products cheaply, why doesn't Asmodee purchase from the counterfeiter as well and sell the product cheaper?? Me thinks the "counterfeiter" and the Official supplier are probably the same company... If not I would love to see a Counterfeit miniature and a "REAL" one side by side...I notice they didn't address how to tell them apart, probably because you cant... Counterfeiter runs another batch of molds sells them directly online for a cheaper price than assmodee but they make money because of dealer markup and no middleman...

Did you read the interview? They talk about the rigorous quality control and safety testing that goes into authentic products, while the counterfeiters skip all that and use cheaper (and often unsafe) materials and methods.

Plus the counterfeiters can sell games for cheaper because don’t have to pay designers, play-testers, artists, and everyone else whose name appears in the inside cover of the instruction manual- Asmodee has done all that work for them already. The counterfeiters only have to pay manufacturing costs to mold the pieces and photocopy the cards and etc.

So regardless of whether Asmodee used their quality- and safety-controlled legitimate manufacturers or they used the counterfeiters, they would still have to pay the designer, artists, etc, and the bottom line for Asmodee wouldn’t actually change significantly. The only thing that would change is that we as the consumer would get inferior products that also might potentially give us cancer.

I would prefer that Asmodee sticks with their established manufacturers, thank you very much.

19 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

Did you read the interview? They talk about the rigorous quality control and safety testing that goes into authentic products, while the counterfeiters skip all that and use cheaper (and often unsafe) materials and methods.

Plus the counterfeiters can sell games for cheaper because don’t have to pay designers, play-testers, artists, and everyone else whose name appears in the inside cover of the instruction manual- Asmodee has done all that work for them already. The counterfeiters only have to pay manufacturing costs to mold the pieces and photocopy the cards and etc.

So regardless of whether Asmodee used their quality- and safety-controlled legitimate manufacturers or they used the counterfeiters, they would still have to pay the designer, artists, etc, and the bottom line for Asmodee wouldn’t actually change significantly. The only thing that would change is that we as the consumer would get inferior products that also might potentially give us cancer.

I would prefer that Asmodee sticks with their established manifacturers, thank you very much.

Bet a Diet Mt-Dew that the Counterfeiter and the legit maker are the same company.

Where can I get a counterfeit Silencer? It's be about the right size.

1 hour ago, Swedge said:

So if the "counterfeiters" can purchase the products cheaply, why doesn't Asmodee purchase from the counterfeiter as well and sell the product cheaper?? Me thinks the "counterfeiter" and the Official supplier are probably the same company... If not I would love to see a Counterfeit miniature and a "REAL" one side by side...I notice they didn't address how to tell them apart, probably because you cant... Counterfeiter runs another batch of molds sells them directly online for a cheaper price than assmodee but they make money because of dealer markup and no middleman...

2

They don't have to pay to:

• Pay to design the products
• pay the licensing
• pay for marketing
• production line design and setup (if the same factory is doing extra prints and selling on the side)
• quality assurance (broken x-wing in your box, ffg sends you a none broken one)

Just to name a few things.

If you think the only cost is the physical production and the rest of the money we pay goes to dealer markup and middleman.... well you just don't know what you are talking about.

The counterfeiters make money because they don't have many of the costs associated with actually making the product.

most of what you said demonstrates a massive lack of understanding of product manufacturing from concept to sale. Please don't post crap like this it just confuses people.

2 hours ago, Force Majeure said:

Mmm... they do talk about the differences between making a mold from an existing piece and the counterfeit product being around 10% smaller than the legitimate one due to shrinking that normally occurs as part of the manufacturing process as an example of fake product vs. official. So that's one way to tell them apart.

"Usually, what the counterfeiters will do, is to use an actual plastic miniature from a real game as the “master”. What ends up happening during the tooling process is that the new replica is going to shrink a little bit. What you therefore see, typically, from a counterfeit product is a plastic miniature that's maybe 10 percent smaller, 15 percent smaller than the original. That is something that happens naturally when you're going through the whole tooling and injection process."

When I was younger and not as morally grounded, I did a good bit of "Forged World" as I called it. I never sold anything, but I do admit it was wrong just the same. I played 40k and I would buy one Forgeworld model and then use RTV silicone rubber and resin to make many copies. I had several flyers and drop pods before everyone did(before the plastic kits)by that method. I never had an issue with shrinkage of any kind and I was good enough that GW employees couldn't tell my fakes from real models. I tell this story to demonstrate that if I could do that as a college student in my basement, a "real" counterfeiter would never put out a product you could distinguish from a real one, unless they truly didn't care. I don't buy Asmodees story on shrinkage. I tend to agree with other posters who have said the counterfeiter is probably the same company as the official provider, but since they are over seas, they are harder to monitor. Just my two cents.

1 hour ago, Icelom said:

They don't have to pay to:

• Pay to design the products
• pay the licensing
• pay for marketing
• production line design and setup (if the same factory is doing extra prints and selling on the side)
• quality assurance (broken x-wing in your box, ffg sends you a none broken one)

Just to name a few things.

If you think the only cost is the physical production and the rest of the money we pay goes to dealer markup and middleman.... well you just don't know what you are talking about.

The counterfeiters make money because they don't have many of the costs associated with actually making the product.

most of what you said demonstrates a massive lack of understanding of product manufacturing from concept to sale. Please don't post crap like this it just confuses people.

And don't forget that the counterfeiters only reproduce the successful games and products.

They have no need to have enough money on the successful stuff to cover the flops.

Essentially: Counterfeiters make their money by outsourcing (stealing) the R&D, design, and commercial risk efforts taken by the parent company, and then proceed to cut costs further if they feel like it by skimping on materials and quality control.

Some models may well be getting made by the original factory, but plenty others are by the mould-of-the-model process, which is... probably good enough to pass inspection on a web page. Likewise, scanning cards and then reprinting them is a heck of a lot easier than bothering to pay the Photoshop and artists and graphic designers to put the card together on the first try.

2 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

Did you read the interview? They talk about the rigorous quality control and safety testing that goes into authentic products, while the counterfeiters skip all that and use cheaper (and often unsafe) materials and methods.

Plus the counterfeiters can sell games for cheaper because don’t have to pay designers, play-testers, artists, and everyone else whose name appears in the inside cover of the instruction manual- Asmodee has done all that work for them already. The counterfeiters only have to pay manufacturing costs to mold the pieces and photocopy the cards and etc.

So regardless of whether Asmodee used their quality- and safety-controlled legitimate manufacturers or they used the counterfeiters, they would still have to pay the designer, artists, etc, and the bottom line for Asmodee wouldn’t actually change significantly. The only thing that would change is that we as the consumer would get inferior products that also might potentially give us cancer.

I would prefer that Asmodee sticks with their established manifacturers, thank you very much.

I'm fairly sure that the devs earn an average paycheck, that is nowhere near the amount that would make a noticeable impact on the price of the product. A larger FLGS could probably put the devs on their payroll without having difficulties.

Similar situation with artists (modelling or graphic, doesn't matter), they probably just get commissions.

It's kinda sad that the people who spend the most time and effort creating these products see the least amount of money from it.

But the point is: at the scale of X-Wing, the wages of the people actually creating it are minuscule compared to shipping and manufacturing costs.

6 hours ago, Force Majeure said:

Not to downplay anything, but it sounds like mostly mainstream type games are the focus of the counterfeiters. It's a sticky widget. We want legitimate product for as cheap as they could make them, but to do so they have to be produced in countries where this kind of thievery is common.

I wonder how much it would cost for a small ship expansion (after production & distribution, etc.) if it was all produced domestically? What would a $20 dollar ship now cost? $40? $60? More?

FFG themselves would take the revenue hit if they shifted to domestic production. They can't pass it onto the customer because of how the market works.

As you raise the price of any given product the overall number of sales drops. FFG's prices are where they are because FFG thinks they're optimal: raise them any further and the reduction lost sales will outweigh the benefit to FFG of the higher prices. If FFG raised their prices to $60 they'd make a lot less money. Think how few expansions you'd buy that that price point.

5 hours ago, Firespray-32 said:

FFG themselves would take the revenue hit if they shifted to domestic production. They can't pass it onto the customer because of how the market works.

As you raise the price of any given product the overall number of sales drops. FFG's prices are where they are because FFG thinks they're optimal: raise them any further and the reduction lost sales will outweigh the benefit to FFG of the higher prices. If FFG raised their prices to $60 they'd make a lot less money. Think how few expansions you'd buy that that price point.

Exactly. At the current price for a wave, I'll look at X-wing and go "buying enough ships to field an all-striker squad would be cool". If I couldn't have done that, I probably wouldn't have bought any .

13 hours ago, Boba Rick said:

Interesting article. X-Wing was not mentioned, but miniatures were.

https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/39296/icv2-interview-asmodee-execs-counterfeiting

Nice article. But yes, it is ultimately the same issue as 'Forgeryworld' or whatever people are calling 40k recasters:

• You're hurting the income of people creating the next generation of shiny things, making it less likely that they'll do so because passion for your craft or not, big companies are ultimately ruled by the office of cost and loss.
• If the product itself isn't as good, you're potentially hurting people's perception of a given game, or gaming in general.
• As noted, there are cheaper resins which offer all sorts of fun health problems if handled incorrectly, so you may be hurting yourself.

9 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Nice article. But yes, it is ultimately the same issue as 'Forgeryworld' or whatever people are calling 40k recasters

It seemed quite different to me. The way I understood it, the article seemed to be talking about hidden forgeries, stuff sold though legitimate-looking online channels as the original thing. Meanwhile 40k recasters are completely honest about what they sell.

6 hours ago, LordBlades said:

It seemed quite different to me. The way I understood it, the article seemed to be talking about hidden forgeries, stuff sold though legitimate-looking online channels as the original thing. Meanwhile 40k recasters are completely honest about what they sell.

I doubt they are all completely honest, you just don't know about the ones that aren't .

On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 6:37 PM, JJFDVORAK said:

When I was younger and not as morally grounded, I did a good bit of "Forged World" as I called it. I never sold anything, but I do admit it was wrong just the same. I played 40k and I would buy one Forgeworld model and then use RTV silicone rubber and resin to make many copies. I had several flyers and drop pods before everyone did(before the plastic kits)by that method. I never had an issue with shrinkage of any kind and I was good enough that GW employees couldn't tell my fakes from real models. I tell this story to demonstrate that if I could do that as a college student in my basement, a "real" counterfeiter would never put out a product you could distinguish from a real one, unless they truly didn't care. I don't buy Asmodees story on shrinkage. I tend to agree with other posters who have said the counterfeiter is probably the same company as the official provider, but since they are over seas, they are harder to monitor. Just my two cents.

As someone who buys some Forge World products recast, I can confirm that the "shrinkage" is basically non-existent among the more professional recasters. What you will see is lack of detail, air bubbles, and/or mold lines that wouldn't be on the original model. Someone with a very basic understanding of modeling (sanding, filing, and light green stuff work) has no issue making recasted models look like the original.

As for X-wing, as far as I know there are no recasters currently producing any figures for it. It is a niche market- 40k/AoS makes a much larger fanbase for a recaster to make a profit from. Aside from Games Workshop products, the only games that see any real amount of recasting are Privateer Press (WarmaHords) or Infinity.

There is also the issue that most recasters use resin and while the XWMG plastic isn't too dissimilar in regards to weight as what a recaster would do in resin, there are some major difficulties that recaster would have to go through to produce X-wing minis- the small details and overall smaller miniatures in X-wing mean that any sort of issues that are normal for recast minis would be much more noticeable in X-wing. Bottom line- it is most likely too difficult to produce, has too small of a fan base (in absolute terms, not monetarily), and basically isn't worth a recaster's time to make fake X-wing models.