22 minutes ago, Warlon said:The hilarious thing is if they made the First Order use actual tactics and strategy then they would be super intimidating.
Unfortunately they have to fake fear in the Resistance because "hurr durr big guns"
Sadly the First Order seems to pull more from Spaceballs than Star Wars. I'm pretty sure they're one of the (if not the) most incompetent villain organizations in the entire Star Wars lore, Canon or Legends.
1 hour ago, LordBlades said:Sadly the First Order seems to pull more from Spaceballs than Star Wars. I'm pretty sure they're one of the (if not the) most incompetent villain organizations in the entire Star Wars lore, Canon or Legends.
Yeah, they only blew up the entire New Republic fleet, the entire Hosnian system and pretty much all of the active resistance. They didn't get that 1 light freighter though, such incompetence.
2 hours ago, FendleyFire said:Yeah, they only blew up the entire New Republic fleet, the entire Hosnian system and pretty much all of the active resistance. They didn't get that 1 light freighter though, such incompetence.
Lazy writing lore breaking unexplainable superlaser and the fact that the fleet of a Galaxy-spanning Republic happened to be chilling all in one systemaside, here are a few of the reasons I think the First Order are ridiculous and Spaceballs-ish:
- Their name. When you hear a simple, no-nonsense name like the Galactic Empire or the Sith Empire, you know these guys mean business. Then you get the First Order. Why on Earth would anyone name their wannabe empire that ?
- Snoke: Who seriously names himself 'Supreme Leader'?
- Kylo: there s a scene in TFA where some Stromtroopers hear one of his tantrums and casually turn around and walk the other way. Thatvs how much they seem to respect and/or fear him. Imagine that happening in the Empire with let's say Vader.
- Hux: his discussion with Poe in the beginning of TLJ is bad comedy material.
Throughout the OT and associated materials (Canon or Legends) , the Empire leaves the impression of a ruthless and effective military machine. Same happens to the now Legends Old Republic Sith Empire. The First Order just doesn't conjure that image, to me at least. All their over the top posing coupled with very poorly timed comedy moments just break it for me. They remind me of a bunch of teenagers that found their grandpas' stormtrooper armor and 'History of the Galactic Empire' and decided to play soldiers.
Edited by LordBlades4 hours ago, LordBlades said:Sadly the First Order seems to pull more from Spaceballs than Star Wars. I'm pretty sure they're one of the (if not the) most incompetent villain organizations in the entire Star Wars lore, Canon or Legends.
I'd be inclined to say a few of the clone-wars era B1 Battle Droid commanders made for the most purely 'incompetent' villainous organisations, but they don't really count. A lot of the smaller pirate gangs are seen to be vastly below average intelligence. But when you consider how much is invested into making the named characters of the first order good leaders, they fail more spectacularly than anyone else by a wide margin.
Hux is a warlord with massive military power, who was doubtless trained in the art of war from near birth. He never once displays any level of competence. In fact, all his decisions at every point so far have been directly opposed to the stated aims of the FO.
Phasma is sort of like the fan service Vader scene in Rogue One - if the camera had been pointing at the ceiling. She never accomplishes anything and, despite her lifelong training, continually does things directly opposed to the aims of the FO.
Kylo is legitimately conflicted, giving at least some credence to his poor decisions. But just looking at his performance as a force user, he's again failed every test set before him in the worst way.
2 hours ago, FendleyFire said:Yeah, they only blew up the entire New Republic fleet, the entire Hosnian system and pretty much all of the active resistance. They didn't get that 1 light freighter though, such incompetence.
Pretty much, yeah. Think about how much an FO Star Destroyer costs, how many star fighters and specialist personnel were aboard, how the FO has the ability to track ships through lightspeed. Think of a half dozen of those destroyers, aided by the Snoke-Wing, bombarding the decrepit rebel base from orbit for three days straight, until that continent of the ice planet has been transformed into a radiant body of molten salt. But no, it makes far more sense for the FO to parley with their enemy and provide half a TIE fighter squadron as air cover while they slowly encroach on an enemy that has known starfighters in the area.
The FO wasn't looking for prisoners (except maybe Rey), and the very nature of a planet covered in salt without vegetation or large mountains is that it's quite literally impossible to move an unstealthed ship in without being detected. The Falcon should have been obliterated when it entered the atmosphere, with half a dozen full flights of space superiority craft following it down and scouring the crash site with radiation bombs. It'd be the equivalent of the entire US military losing a fight against three teenagers equipped with a dirt bike, two BB guns and a water balloon, hiding in their basement, then letting them escape the area with their location unknown.
Every bit of progress the FO does make is only given to shove the audience into another bogus "the hero is in danger" scene, from which they all escape unscathed. Every subplot, every key point, it's all clumsily designed to force the audience to another in a long line of similar scenes.
19 hours ago, Icelom said:Kinda like boba fett?
Boba at least tracked down the Falcon for the Empire and collected the bounty on Han.
Phasma didn't accomplish anything.
If the films were in more competent hands, the battle between Finn and FN-2199 aka "Nines" aka TR8R!, would have been between Finn and Phasma instead. Phasma would have called Finn a traitor and then schooled him with the stun baton but just before the killing blow been knocked off balance by a nearby explosion, allowing Finn to escape. This would have made her defeat at Finn's hands in TLJ much more satisfying and meaningful for both characters.
From what I know about her character in the EU, I'd probably give her a Xizor-esque ability to pass damage off to a nearby generic ship when her ship is attacked.
8 hours ago, LordBlades said:Sadly the First Order seems to pull more from Spaceballs than Star Wars. I'm pretty sure they're one of the (if not the) most incompetent villain organizations in the entire Star Wars lore, Canon or Legends.
6 hours ago, FendleyFire said:Yeah, they only blew up the entire New Republic fleet, the entire Hosnian system and pretty much all of the active resistance. They didn't get that 1 light freighter though, such incompetence.
So the new republic was stupider than stupid then. Yeah that sounds like a Jar Jar plotline.
As for Captain Phasma there was still one character more of a throwaway then her, Purple Haired Holdo. Watching HISHE Admiral Akbar should have made the sacrifice, but KK wanted to put her bestie in the film so we got a mutiny.
On 6/28/2018 at 5:29 AM, JJ48 said:Depends. Were the fighters on his ship and under his command?
I found it odd that they had this massive super-ship with inadequate anti-fighter firepower, and yet all the other ships stayed far away from it, rather than staying close enough to provide supporting fire.
This is not a Capt Canady not scrambling his fighters problem. This is a screen writers not having a clue how space combat or target prioritization works within the setting problem. A competent commander would have scrambled his fighters immediately upon dropping from hyperspace. Especially when the enemy is known for its strength in using fighters to execute deadly strikes against its assets. Star Destroyers are a lot like our modern aircraft carriers in that the vessels point defense is rather limited by itself, so they rely on a combat air patrol to shore up its defenses. Had the First Order had a fighter patrol up, there is no way Poe could have done what he did. Plus, given the size of the fleet, their fighters alone could have overwhelmed and destroyed the entirety of the Resistance flotilla and all support craft trying to dock with the Raddus. These are the kind of plot defects that snowball and ruin any immersion in the story.
5 hours ago, Woobyluv said:This is not a Capt Canady not scrambling his fighters problem. This is a screen writers not having a clue how space combat or target prioritization works within the setting problem. A competent commander would have scrambled his fighters immediately upon dropping from hyperspace. Especially when the enemy is known for its strength in using fighters to execute deadly strikes against its assets. Star Destroyers are a lot like our modern aircraft carriers in that the vessels point defense is rather limited by itself, so they rely on a combat air patrol to shore up its defenses. Had the First Order had a fighter patrol up, there is no way Poe could have done what he did. Plus, given the size of the fleet, their fighters alone could have overwhelmed and destroyed the entirety of the Resistance flotilla and all support craft trying to dock with the Raddus. These are the kind of plot defects that snowball and ruin any immersion in the story.
Oh, but, da Living Force clouded the minds of the First Order so they wouldn't think of that! And even if they did, da Force would have been with Poe so he could have been flying around all crazy like and not gotten shot down because PLOT.
2 minutes ago, Warlon said:Oh, but, da Living Force clouded the minds of the First Order so they wouldn't think of that! And even if they did, da Force would have been with Poe so he could have been flying around all crazy like and not gotten shot down because PLOT.
Also, every single aspect of Star Wars combat is stupid. But it's not meant to be realistic, it is meant to be a Flash Gordon serial.
6 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:Also, every single aspect of Star Wars combat is stupid. But it's not meant to be realistic, it is meant to be a Flash Gordon serial.
5 hours ago, Woobyluv said:This is not a Capt Canady not scrambling his fighters problem. This is a screen writers not having a clue how space combat or target prioritization works within the setting problem. A competent commander would have scrambled his fighters immediately upon dropping from hyperspace. Especially when the enemy is known for its strength in using fighters to execute deadly strikes against its assets. Star Destroyers are a lot like our modern aircraft carriers in that the vessels point defense is rather limited by itself, so they rely on a combat air patrol to shore up its defenses. Had the First Order had a fighter patrol up, there is no way Poe could have done what he did. Plus, given the size of the fleet, their fighters alone could have overwhelmed and destroyed the entirety of the Resistance flotilla and all support craft trying to dock with the Raddus. These are the kind of plot defects that snowball and ruin any immersion in the story.
As above, quoting myself, combat in star wars has NEVER made sense.
I've always assumed the FO didn't launch fighters because Hux wanted to be ready for immediate lightspeed if the Resistance made it into hyperspace.
2 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:Also, every single aspect of Star Wars combat is stupid. But it's not meant to be realistic, it is meant to be a Flash Gordon serial.
I understand your point and you're right. But you don't have to be realistic in order to have your audience on the edge of their seat.
The space combat (and combat in general) in star wars doesn't make sense, but I accept that.
But it's just really annoying to see utter incompetence in the bad guys, even the higher ups. It's like, how did these guys manage to build Starkiller base? I'm surprised they all didn't just shoot themselves with the giant laser.
The Force really is a whole other matter that I'd rather not tick myself off talking about, especially while I'm at work.
Edited by Warlon5 minutes ago, kraedin said:I've always assumed the FO didn't launch fighters because Hux wanted to be ready for immediate lightspeed if the Resistance made it into hyperspace.
That doesn't really make sense either. Given that an Imperial class star destroyer holds at bare minimum 72 TIEs, it can be assumed that the FO capital ships hold the same or more. There's no reason each ship couldn't launch 36 TIEs each, saving the rest for pursuit.
In addition, ships like the Silencer no doubt had hyperdrives of their own.
56 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:
As above, quoting myself, combat in star wars has NEVER made sense.
There is difference between not making sense in our world, or not making sense in the world of star wars.
Example: In real world, space craft don't fly like they do in SW. In SW all spacefights act like as if they happened in atmosphere. That doesn't really hold up to our understanding of physics. It doesn't make sense in our world, but within the universe, it is consistent with itself. It would be stupid to rip on these "problems", because they are done on purpose to convey the WW2 feel of aerial combat... but in space.
However, that's 1 thing.
Another thing is disregarding certain tactics for the sake of story convenience, or ignoring established rules of the universe.
The first one is called suspension of disbelief, and it is necessary to enjoy most fiction.
The other is called bad writing.
Equating the two is fallacious. The problem is not that the world acts differently to our own, the problem is that what's happening doesn't make sense in the parts it should.
Note: I don't think this is something new to TLJ, previous SW movies did stupid things as well. The Ewoks for example. But it shouldn't be defended.
6 hours ago, Woobyluv said:This is not a Capt Canady not scrambling his fighters problem. This is a screen writers not having a clue how space combat or target prioritization works within the setting problem. A competent commander would have scrambled his fighters immediately upon dropping from hyperspace. Especially when the enemy is known for its strength in using fighters to execute deadly strikes against its assets. Star Destroyers are a lot like our modern aircraft carriers in that the vessels point defense is rather limited by itself, so they rely on a combat air patrol to shore up its defenses. Had the First Order had a fighter patrol up, there is no way Poe could have done what he did. Plus, given the size of the fleet, their fighters alone could have overwhelmed and destroyed the entirety of the Resistance flotilla and all support craft trying to dock with the Raddus. These are the kind of plot defects that snowball and ruin any immersion in the story.
Meanwhile, the Empire sends only a couple of Tie to defend the Death Star in Episode 4 and that’s okay? Or did it also ruined the inmersion for you?
Edited by Red Castle1 minute ago, Red Castle said:Meanwhile, the Empire sends only a couple of Tie to defend the Death Star in Episode 4 and that’s okay?
Who said it is?
These are badly written movies. It's just people get all uppity about how trash TLJ was, and they forget that under all that nostalgia, the OT aren't stellar films.
3 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:Who said it is?
These are badly written movies. It's just people get all uppity about how trash TLJ was, and they forget that under all that nostalgia, the OT aren't stellar films.
Kinda the point I wanted to make. I find it funny when I see a critism of TLJ that could also apply to the OT, but somehow it is okay in the OT because, like you said, nostalgia.
9 hours ago, Red Castle said:Meanwhile, the Empire sends only a couple of Tie to defend the Death Star in Episode 4 and that’s okay? Or did it also ruined the inmersion for you?
Tharkin had a pretty good reason to assume the Death Star was impervious to fighters. Apart from that single exhaust port, which took a farmboy strong in the Force to hit, that appeared to be the case. What he did was arrogance, not military incompetence.
On the other hand, there's ample evidence in canon that regular sized ships are NOT impervious to starfighters. Having a regular ship without its own fighter screen is military incompetence.
9 hours ago, Red Castle said:Meanwhile, the Empire sends only a couple of Tie to defend the Death Star in Episode 4 and that’s okay? Or did it also ruined the inmersion for you?
Those TIEs were part of Black Squadron - the empire doubtless sent all its forces, but since it'd just dropped out of hyperspace, it would have had to scramble fighters from the hanger bays. Black Squadron, being the elite unit they were, was naturally the first to launch and intercept.
Alternatively, you could view it from tarkin's perspective, "Our station is immune to any damage those fighters can dish out, therefore it's illogical to risk any of my valuable starfighters' destruction. We should therefore only send our best pilots to accelerate the defeat of the rebel forces".
Either way, it's a logical series of events.
9 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:Note: I don't think this is something new to TLJ, previous SW movies did stupid things as well. The Ewoks for example. But it shouldn't be defended.
The ewoks themselves were pretty ridiculous, but the empire ignoring them was legitimate. Old novels explained that Palpatine intentionally left the natives alive to entice the rebel commandos into an all-out attack. The fact that Ewoks won , however, is totally stupid.
6 hours ago, Astech said:Those TIEs were part of Black Squadron - the empire doubtless sent all its forces, but since it'd just dropped out of hyperspace, it would have had to scramble fighters from the hanger bays. Black Squadron, being the elite unit they were, was naturally the first to launch and intercept.
Alternatively, you could view it from tarkin's perspective, "Our station is immune to any damage those fighters can dish out, therefore it's illogical to risk any of my valuable starfighters' destruction. We should therefore only send our best pilots to accelerate the defeat of the rebel forces".
Either way, it's a logical series of events.
The ewoks themselves were pretty ridiculous, but the empire ignoring them was legitimate. Old novels explained that Palpatine intentionally left the natives alive to entice the rebel commandos into an all-out attack. The fact that Ewoks won , however, is totally stupid.
What you are doing here, is usually called mental gymnastics. Yes, you can explain the things that have transpired. No, it does not make them logical. What's more, your ideas are pure speculation. The movie should answer these questions in a satisfying manner.
Even if the deathstar is invulnerable (its not, you can see the turrets taking damage, and those are more expensive than a TIE) they KNEW there was a risk to attack. Regardless, you wouldn't let your shiny new space station get banged up by some nasty insurgency.
17 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:Who said it is?
These are badly written movies. It's just people get all uppity about how trash TLJ was, and they forget that under all that nostalgia, the OT aren't stellar films.
17 hours ago, Red Castle said:Kinda the point I wanted to make. I find it funny when I see a critism of TLJ that could also apply to the OT, but somehow it is okay in the OT because, like you said, nostalgia.
Agreed on watching the OT as an adult they kinda suck but that doesn’t excuse tlj either. The only compitent real army in ANY star wars movie is the clone army. What tweaks people, I believe, is Disney turning the stupid to 11. Yeah the OT sits comfortably at 7-8 but these new movies really are dumber as far as story. Letting the past die, ie forgetting it, is quite frankly one of the stupidest lessons a movie can teach a kid. It goes to what I’ve said for years, if there isn’t singing in it Disney needs to leave it the **** alone.
Lol, of course some people still think Boba is somehow better or more significant. Same as Palp is soooo much better than Snoke, even though we had to wait for the prequels to flesh him out at all. Sure, everyone will have a personal favorite. Sure, there are some minor differences. No one ever said they were exactly the same in every way.
The point is that they seem like very, very similar characters when you compare the original trilogy to the newest movies. I am sure that this is being done on purpose. Just admit it's personal preference like most opinions about what makes an entertaining movie or character. Using tiny differences between already insignificant, minor characters to try "prove" your opinion just seems a little desperate and silly.
The book about Phasma wasn't bad at all. Sorry you've got people coming here to tell you that your opinion is trash. You dared to mention a new trilogy character without foaming at the mouth in anger. This really gets some people angry lately. I really hope they do include her and that she is a powerful card.
52 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:Letting the past die, ie forgetting it, is quite frankly one of the stupidest lessons a movie can teach a kid. It goes to what I’ve said for years, if there isn’t singing in it Disney needs to leave it the **** alone.
I really like the Marvel movies they have been making, even though they deviate from even the recent comics pretty heavily. Maybe the difference is that comics fans have become used to constant resets, retcons, and changes. They do what they want in the comics and have to make up for past artists that did the same. Maybe superhero fans just roll with the changes a little bit better by now?
Luke : So, it is time for the Jedi Order to end?
Yoda : Time, it is...hmm, for you to look past a pile of old books, hmm?
Luke : The sacred Jedi texts!
Yoda : Oh? Read them, have you?
Luke : Well, I...
Yoda : Page-turners, they were not. Yes, yes, yes. Wisdom, they held, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess. Ah, Skywalker...still looking to the horizon. Never here! [pokes Luke with his walking stick] Now, hmm? The need in front of your nose!
Luke : I was weak. Unwise.
Yoda : Lost Ben Solo, you did. Lose Rey, you must not.
Luke : I can't be what she needs me to be!
Yoda : Heeded my words not, did you? "Pass on what you have learned." Strength, mastery, hmm...but weakness, folly, failure , also. Yes, failure, most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.
If what you get from this is "completely forget the past", would you please try reading it again? This is a pretty central point to the movie and many of the important, main characters phrase it on their own way. Sure, Kylo has the message slightly skewed to the dark side, but well, he is supposed to be a villain. They say lots of things that are not what we want to teach children. I think the message is that you can't be afraid to admit weakness and fault in yourself or your lessons to your students will ring hollow in the end, when they realize you are just a fallible person under those Jedi robes. If Kylo knew a little more about how the story of Vader really ended things could be very different.