On 6/30/2018 at 5:17 PM, Commander Kaine said:

The movie should answer these questions in a satisfying manner.

I believe it did actually, several times. Rebel command say something about the Empire not thinking fighters are a threat during the mission briefing, there’s an exchange between Vader and an officer about the fighters evading their guns so he decided they should engage with their own fighters, and I think there’s at least one other.

I’m not saying there are no plot holes in the OT mind you, but I don’t accept that we look past them just due to nostalgia. I think we look past them like we do in other great films because the films are exciting and interesting and memorable and engaging enough that we get cought up in them so we’re too invested emotionally for the minor plot holes to catch our attention. It’s not a lack of plot holes that makes a good film, it’s when it makes you not care about the plot holes.

4 hours ago, Woobyluv said:

1) Vader wasn't the commander of the station, at least officially. It wasn't his place to go over Tarkin's head until it became clear that Tarkin's plan was ineffective.

I'm sorry, what was Tarkin's plan again? Oh right, to do absolutely nothing even when his officer reports to him that there is a danger because he's too busy looking at a timer. A real military genius.

At least when Starkiller is attacked, even though the fighters can't do nothing against the base, Hux still decides to launch a shitload of squadrons to intercept, even though he's also busy looking at a timer. At least when Hux is aware that the lone puny x-wing could be a threat to the Dreadnought, he decides to launch a shitload of squadrons to intercept.

I would say: General Hux 2/Tarkin 0

4 hours ago, Woobyluv said:

2) How do you know fighters weren't scrambled over Hoth? They still used models in those days of cinema. Video games over the years depicted TIE's in the battlespace. Piett did as he was told, he deployed the fleet to cut off escape from the system. Even with a giant fleet there are going to be gaps that savvy rebels can analyze and exploit.

If we take a look at this footage from Episode 5...

Do we see Tie Fighters anywhere? Cause I don't. All I see is a lone Star Destroyer with no fighter escort at all. And it's not like Georges Lucas never revisited those movies to add more and more and more to it... but he never bothered to add a couple of fighters here and there. So it looks to me like a Star Destroyer without a proper fighter escort ready to intercept. Fighters that could have overwhelmed and destroy the entirety of the Rebellion flotilla and support craft. And about gaps that has been analyzed and exploited, I've seen bigger. I mean, they fly so close to that Star Destroyer that one of those X-Wing could actually pull a Maverick and take a polaroid shot of the command bridge.

4 hours ago, Woobyluv said:

Strategically speaking the Empire scored a crushing victory at Hoth. Forcing your enemy to flee the field and surrender their land to you is huge. Forcing the Alliance to expend very limited resources just to survive is a huge success. Did they meet all their operational goals in the campaign? No. Yet they still scored a resounding victory.

Good, so it looks like the First Order also scored a crushing victory at D'Qar. They forced their enemy to flee the field and surrender their land. Bonus point because they catch-up with them and kill almost all of them, big commanding officers included like Ackbar and Holdo. Sadly for them, those that escaped is our merry band of heroes, as if it was just a movie after all and the good guys had to pull a win. A resounding victory for the First Order since they basically crushed the Resistance.

9 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

Good, so it looks like the First Order also scored a crushing victory at D'Qar. They forced their enemy to flee the field and surrender their land. Bonus point because they catch-up with them and kill almost all of them, big commanding officers included like Ackbar and Holdo. Sadly for them, those that escaped is our merry band of heroes, as if it was just a movie after all and the good guys had to pull a win. A resounding victory for the First Order since they basically crushed the Resistance.

Why does everyone keep saying they wiped the resistance out? They clearly say at the end of tlj they had allies, the message was received but they aren’t coming. The FO did NOT destroy the resistance, they were just too ***** to rush in and save Leia but there is definately sympathizers out there. The FO tried to destroy the leadership and to varying degrees did accomplish that but the fight is far from over. **** we don’t even know if the calvary didn’t come out of fear or was busy setting up a counter offensive while the FO went after Leia. Most would know full well she’d gladly sacrifice herself to protect the greater number.

34 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

Why does everyone keep saying they wiped the resistance out? They clearly say at the end of tlj they had allies, the message was received but they aren’t coming. The FO did NOT destroy the resistance, they were just too ***** to rush in and save Leia but there is definately sympathizers out there. The FO tried to destroy the leadership and to varying degrees did accomplish that but the fight is far from over. **** we don’t even know if the calvary didn’t come out of fear or was busy setting up a counter offensive while the FO went after Leia. Most would know full well she’d gladly sacrifice herself to protect the greater number.

Except for a couple members on mission, like Snap and Jess, that's pretty much all the Resistance. At least that is what is heavily implied in the movie with General Hux saying 'This is where we snuff-out the Resistance once and for all' or saying to Snoke 'The Resistance will soon be in our grasp', or Kylo Ren saying to Luke 'The Resistance is dead!', or Rey asking Leia 'How do we build a rebellion from this?'. Allies does not mean members of the Resistance, it might just be sympatizer that help them but do not want to fight directly.

But like Luke said at the end 'The Rebellion is reborn today', so of course they will rebuild and bring some allies. I mean, the First Order just destroyed the New Republic Senate, surely some planets will join in the fight against the First Order.

2 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

Except for a couple members on mission, like Snap and Jess, that's pretty much all the Resistance. At least that is what is heavily implied in the movie with General Hux saying 'This is where we snuff-out the Resistance once and for all' or saying to Snoke 'The Resistance will soon be in our grasp', or Kylo Ren saying to Luke 'The Resistance is dead!', or Rey asking Leia 'How do we build a rebellion from this?'. Allies does not mean members of the Resistance, it might just be sympatizer that help them but do not want to fight directly.

Not trying to argue but how would the FO know who is in the resistance, do they have a role call sheet? So any FO dialogue is assumption at best and arrogance at worst. Rey was only part of the resistance for like what 2 weeks? She has no idea what they have either. Again not trying to be nasty about it but I really do think the resistance is bigger than what was in that hangar. What I do believe is they don’t have organization. It’s prolly 30 fighters here, a corvette there, basic militia stuff. So when they say no one is coming it’s likely due to people going. You gonna help man? I don’t know you? Is harry’s fighters going? I’ll go if Dave does. That kind of stuff.

33 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

I'm sorry, what was Tarkin 's plan again? Oh right, to do absolutely nothing even when his officer reports to him that there is a danger because he's too busy looking at a timer. A real military genius .

At least when Starkiller is attacked, even though the fighters can't do nothing against the base, Hux still decides to launch a shitload of squadrons to intercept, even though he's also busy looking at a timer. At least when Hux is aware that the lone puny x-wing could be a threat to the Dreadnought, he decides to launch a shitload of squadrons to intercept.

I would say: General Hux 2/ Tarkin 0

It's made pretty obvious through the years that Tarkin was insane, through and through. That officer made it very clear that the vulnerability was incredibly small - small enough that you'd need some kind of space wizard to exploit it.

If you take a passing glance at the outside hangers of TFA, you can clearly see dozens of fighters grounded with no personnel around then as Poe's group screams past. Against the dreadnought, Hux's comical attempt at parley is an obvious military blunder. It's pretty obvious that Hux was expecting a fight, meaning that he should have scrambled fighters upon exiting hyperspace, not upon seeing a ship just off the command tower.

40 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

Do we see Tie Fighters anywhere? Cause I don't. All I see is a lone Star Destroyer with no fighter escort at all. And it's not like Georges Lucas never revisited those movies to add more and more and more to it... but he never bothered to add a couple of fighters here and there. So it looks to me like a Star Destroyer without a proper fighter escort ready to intercept. Fighters that could have overwhelmed and destroy the entirety of the Rebellion flotilla and support craft. And about gaps that has been analyzed and exploited, I've seen bigger. I mean, they fly so close to that Star Destroyer that one of those X-Wing could actually pull a Maverick and take a polaroid shot of the command bridge.

Do you know how small TIE fighters are? If you can see a whole ISD, then a TIE fighter at the same range would be either a pinprick of light - easily confused for a star - or totally invisible.

But of course, the important part isn't the nonsensical stuff - for the most part one can live through that for the sake of enjoying a movie. It's the inconsistent nonsensical stuff that ruins a plot. The original trilogy was consistent. The sequel trilogy isn't.

On 7/1/2018 at 5:02 PM, Commander Kaine said:

"But she lowered the shields omg omg"

Well... Vader killed the Emperor. Checkmate.

I'd point out that when Vader killed the Emperor, it was an act of redemption, actively turning away from the Dark Side. When Phasma turned traitor, she did it to save her own skin and then appeared next movie as if nothing had happened. Vader showed that his convictions changed, whereas Phasma shows that she never had any to begin with.

9 hours ago, Woobyluv said:

4) The OT films were great and told the story in a fairly consistent manner FOR THE TIME! The late 70's and 80's is where they invented cinematic techniques that are still in use today and even refined. If you watch other science fiction films from around that time period, you will see that Star Wars has some problems by today's standards, but holds up really well.

Seriously, Flash Gordon came out in 1980. Compare it to Star Wars and you'll quickly see that, however insane George Lucas would eventually become, the man did wonders for sci-fi special effects.

8 hours ago, Red Castle said:

And Tarkin couldn't be bothered to do so? What was he doing that he could not be bothered to do so? He was looking at a timer. He was not coordinating a big and complicated strike against the rebel base, he was looking at a timer and waiting to say 'fire'. When his officer comes and tell him that after analyzing the attack there is a real danger, he literally do nothing about it. Nothing at all. He just don't care. Because he's too busy looking at a timer? But that's okay, because he's arrogant and overconfident.

I always wondered why they had to wait for the moon to clear the planet before even beginning the fire sequence. Couldn't you start charging up the gun ahead of time so that you're ready to fire the moment the base comes into view?

3 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I always wondered why they had to wait for the moon to clear the planet before even beginning the fire sequence. Couldn't you start charging up the gun ahead of time so that you're ready to fire the moment the base comes into view?

I don’t know man that’s a lot of power, enough to explode a planet. Generating and channeling that power would be easier than holding it back. A nuclear explosion is relatively easy to create, it’s waaaay harder to contain. Now the moon thing you got me on. Unless you couldn’t fire twice in succession, which they did in rotj easily, I have no idea why they didn’t blast the moon then finish the rebels. Moons do not concern me I want that base. The empire should go through not around obstacles.

1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

I  always  wondered  why they had to wait for the moon to clear the planet before even beginning the fire sequence   .  

Editing to make it more exciting and suspenseful. Originally the Death Star was never at Yavin 4. Thank Marcia Lucas, the saviour of Star Wars.

Anyway I fail to see what all this discussion about which trilogy is best has to do with the fact that a hard canon character is absent from the game. This game is based on Episodes IV to VIII (so far) and associated materials. This has no bearing on whether anyone likes them or dislikes them. Phasma should be in the game whether as crew or a pilot and FFG have been remiss in not including her.

5 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I always wondered why they had to wait for the moon to clear the planet before even beginning the fire sequence. Couldn't you start charging up the gun ahead of time so that you're ready to fire the moment the base comes into view?

I always liked the HISHE version: " I say we're in range now. Fire ." - Death Star vapourises Yavin itself.

(Yes, I know it's a gas giant and that probably wouldn't work. Funny to watch, though).

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I always liked the HISHE version: " I say we're in range now. Fire ." - Death Star vapourises Yavin itself.

(Yes, I know it's a gas giant and that probably wouldn't work. Funny to watch, though).

Or maybe snipe the moon through the planet!

6 hours ago, LordFajubi said:

I don’t know man that’s a lot of power, enough to explode a planet. Generating and channeling that power would be easier than holding it back. A nuclear explosion is relatively easy to create, it’s waaaay harder to contain. Now the moon thing you got me on. Unless you couldn’t fire twice in succession, which they did in rotj easily, I have no idea why they didn’t blast the moon then finish the rebels. Moons do not concern me I want that base. The empire should go through not around obstacles.

I'm not saying they need to always keep it at full charge. However, they had a pretty accurate countdown of when the moon would be clear, and they must have some idea of how long the charging sequence takes. If it takes, say, 90 seconds, then maybe start it up 90 seconds prior to clearing the planet?

11 hours ago, Astech said:

That officer made it very clear that the vulnerability was incredibly small - small enough that you'd need some kind of space wizard to exploit it.

That's one way to interpret the quote. Here's again what the officer said: ''We've analyzed their attack, sir, and there is a danger. Should I have your ship standing by?''

It sounds to me that he tought there was indeed a danger coming from the attack. Enough danger to actually advise Tarkin to evacuate. Boy... what a drama queen...

11 hours ago, Astech said:

If you take a passing glance at the outside hangers of TFA, you can clearly see dozens of fighters grounded with no personnel around then as Poe's group screams past.

Have you watched The Force Awaken? (Rethorical question, I know you did since you even noticed the number of fighters still on the ground). Do you remember how many squadrons come to intercept the X-Wing? If you think that is not enough, Vader and Tarkin looks even more incompetent by sending only a few craft to intercept.

11 hours ago, Astech said:

Against the dreadnought, Hux's comical attempt at parley is an obvious military blunder. It's pretty obvious that Hux was expecting a fight, meaning that he should have scrambled fighters upon exiting hyperspace, not upon seeing a ship just off the command tower.

Well, clearly Hux loves to brag and be in a position of power (He's really arrogant, quite like a certain Gran Moff), so when presented with the occasion to actually say to the Resistance that he will crush them, why not take it? That's just a lone X-Wing, it can't possibly be a threat to a Star destroyer, it can't even penetrate its armor (does it remind you of an overconfidence a certain Gran Moff showed in another movie?)And the Fighters are clearly on the Ready waiting for command to launch. As soon as he needs them, they're out and intercepting all the fighters coming, including the one already attacking. Should they have been out already? Sure, but General Hux was confident that the X-Wing could not penetrate its armor and was not a threat in itself.

11 hours ago, Astech said:

Do you know how small TIE fighters are? If you can see a whole ISD, then a TIE fighter at the same range would be either a pinprick of light - easily confused for a star - or totally invisible.

Sure, they were so small in fact that you can't even see them attacking the transport that just fly by... as if they were no ready to intercept the only transport coming their way...

---

The lenght you all go to actually justify the military incompetence of Tarkin, Piett and to an extent Vader is really entertaining. If I get this straight:

Tarkin is not an incompetent because:

-He's arrogant, overconfidant and insane. I'm starting to wonder about Papa Palpy's decision to put this man in charge of his 1 Trillion credits battle station...

-He didn't think it was important to launch fighters to intercept when a report come in that there is a danger because he denies that there is a danger, even if the advise he gets is to evacuate.

-He don't bother to launch squadrons to intercept because he's too busy looking at a timer.

-His big plan is to do nothing to protect the battle station, absolutely nothing.

We should all take notes of his military genius.

As for Vader, when he sees that Tarkin's plan doesn't work (of course it won't work, his plan is to do nothing), he decides to takes matters into his own hand and go out with one squadron. He doesn't think it's wise to send more and overwhelm his opponent because it's an elite squadron, so they have no problem with getting chased by X-Wing without cover. And besides, why crush the opponent by overwhelming them with sheer numbers when you could just go out and have a tight fight.

As for Piett, he did actually launched squadrons, they are just too small to be seen and not ready to intercept the only transport coming their way.

But Hux actually reacting to a threat that should not be a threat (the X-Wing can't penetrate the armor and we've seen in Episode 7 that a Star Destroyer can actually take a fighter out) is a real incompetent because the fighters (that are obviously just waiting for command seeing at what speed they come out when called) was not already out when a lone puny x-wing comes his way to parley (probably to beg for peace, in which case he'll have the pleasure to show all his power because he clearly have an ego problem)

12 hours ago, LordFajubi said:

Not trying to argue but how would the FO know who is in the resistance, do they have a role call sheet? So any FO dialogue is assumption at best and arrogance at worst. Rey was only part of the resistance for like what 2 weeks? She has no idea what they have either. Again not trying to be nasty about it but I really do think the resistance is bigger than what was in that hangar. What I do believe is they don’t have organization. It’s prolly 30 fighters here, a corvette there, basic militia stuff. So when they say no one is coming it’s likely due to people going. You gonna help man? I don’t know you? Is harry’s fighters going? I’ll go if Dave does. That kind of stuff.

Holdo also acknowledge that they are the last of the Resistance in her speech:

There are four hundred of us...
on three ships.
We're the very last of the Resistance

4 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Or maybe snipe the moon through the plane   t!

Unless the gasses cause the laser to reflect/refract in an undesirable direction, or defuses the treat by simply heating the gas more an consuming the beam in the process. both of which cause the shot to be pointless.

6 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I always liked the HISHE version: " I say we're in range now. Fire ." - Death Star vapourises Yavin itself.

(Yes, I know it's a gas giant and that probably wouldn't work. Funny to watch, though).

To get completely off topic and all sciencey you could explode The Yavin gas giant itself, but the Death Star May not have a powerful enough laser for it.

My understanding is that the Death Star fires a consentrated laser beam into the core of a planet, super heating it rapidly causing it to expand outward in an explosive display. Basically you make the core unstable and the planet explodes itself.

With something like Yavin you could explode the core (we’re pretty sure gas giants have a small extremely dense solid core) but due to the sheer mass of the planet this wouldn’t have much of an impact. (There’s also a chance that due to the pressure generated that the gas giants core will just reform after some time, the pieces may not even escape the gas giant). What you would need is a laser hot enough to start a chain reaction with the gases Yavin is composed of.

As for shooting through Yavin yeah Tarkin could try it, but given the lack of reliability of targeting technology in the Star Wars universe had he shot and missed all he would have done is buy more time for the rebels. Also the gases may refract the laser.

23 minutes ago, GLEXOR said:

Unless the gasses cause the laser to reflect/refract in an undesirable direction, or defuses the treat by simply heating the gas more an consuming the beam in the process. both of which cause the shot to be pointless.

Ok, so just have Vader use the Force to make sure that doesn't happen!

Just now, JJ48 said:

Ok, so just have Vader use the Force to make sure that doesn't happen!

29 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Ok, so just have Vader use the Force to make sure that doesn't happen!

Agreed. Have vader curve the beam around the planet.

Or, make the deathstar itself spin really fast so when it shoots, the beam naturally curves around the planet. Like in those movies where the guys shoot around corners by moving the gun so fast.

Or have vader connect the beam and the planet directly where they could hold hands if they wanted, eliminating the middle man of the planet.

Or design a ship with a giant mirror on it's back that the laser aims at so they can redirect the laser to another point. But make sure the rebels don't also have a big mirror to reflect it back at them.

Or if only space tugs were already invented by then, they could help push it for a speedier orbit when it really counted.

What were we talking about again?

1 hour ago, ViscerothSWG said:

What were we talking about again?

I don’t know, but I like where this is going!

The discussion about competence is odd. We don't really see enough of Snoke to judge his competence (yes, he misjudges Kylo and gets killed for his trouble, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was awful at everything else he did. I mean, they did build the Super Death Star, if nothing else). But Kylo and Hux are explicitly incompetents. The movie tells us this. The characters within the movie tell us this.

Hux has to be told that he's being trolled, because he's too angry and stupid to figure it out on his own. Hux doesn't deploy a fighter screen because he's arrogant and stupid, and loses a dreadnought for his trouble. And, yes, the dreadnought captain--and therefore the movie--explicitly states that this is a failing, and a basic one, and inexcusable. After Kylo assumes command, Hux keeps poking the unstable, violent force user, because Hux himself is an unstable moron with no self-control. Snoke calls Hux a weak, rabid cur, and remarks that he keeps him in place because his weakness can be manipulated and is useful . Useful how is not entirely clear--well, it sort of is, because Snoke manipulates Kylo's weaknesses the same way, and that works pretty well. Until it doesn't. But then, that's the story with Vader and Palpatine too, so.

And Kylo? Him being a weak, broken man is the entire point of the films. He's dangerous precisely because he's pathetic, and he's a much more real, immediate threat than any other Star Wars antagonist we've seen. Because Kylo Ren is Elliot Rodger. He's James Holmes. He's Eric and Dylan. He's every contemptible, pathetic, broken man who reacts to perceived slights by finding a gun and committing mass murder, and we see him on the news in America every year.

That's not something Star Wars has done before, no. And it won't be for everyone. But to call Kylo, specifically, incompetent or whiny or pathetic is to miss the point. Of course he's all those things . That's why he's a monster.

Conversely, stormtrooper legions losing to teddy bears and log traps is uh. Is a thing that happens, alright. Likewise, calling out Phasma for being worthless--sure, that's true. But it's hardly inexplicable that people would be attached to her when fandom has spent forty years idolizing Boba Fett, who is notable for wearing cool armor, following a tracking device, and being accidentally killed by a blind man .

6 hours ago, Red Castle said:

That's one way to interpret the quote. Here's again what the officer said: ''We've analyzed their attack, sir, and there is a danger. Should I have your ship standing by?''

It sounds to me that he tought there was indeed a danger coming from the attack. Enough danger to actually advise Tarkin to evacuate. Boy... what a drama queen...

See, that officer wasn't asking if he should sound an alert to evacuate the whole Death Star, he was simply advising Tarkin that the space station wasn't invincible after all - an incredibly small weakness had been discovered in a well-defended trench. Tarkin, being the arrogant, power-hungry man he was, refused to evacuate himself (thus losing credibility). It's a totally reasonable course of events.

Tarkin not scrambling fighters is also a good tactical move. If that rebel base was destroyed, those starfighters would be grounded within a week, never to fly again. It was pointless to scramble fighters against an enemy you could beat without ever shooting them.

6 hours ago, Red Castle said:

Have you watched The Force Awaken? (Rethorical question, I know you did since you even noticed the number of fighters still on the ground). Do you remember how many squadrons come to intercept the X-Wing? If you think that is not enough, Vader and Tarkin looks even more incompetent by sending only a few craft to intercept.

Virtually none? It's nonsensical to leave exposed fighters grounded when an air battle is raging nearby - that's leaving unprotected assets out for the enemy.

In the old EU an enemy of Rogue Squadron sends an entire flight (72) of TIE fighters to kill them - six per X-wing, in territory unfamiliar to the X-wings. Even then Wedge wasn't sure if he would die. Hux sending any less than that against next-generation fighters is just ridiculous.

6 hours ago, Red Castle said:

Well, clearly Hux loves to brag and be in a position of power (He's really arrogant, quite like a certain Gran Moff), so when presented with the occasion to actually say to the Resistance that he will crush them, why not take it? That's just a lone X-Wing, it can't possibly be a threat to a Star destroyer, it can't even penetrate its armor (does it remind you of an overconfidence a certain Gran Moff showed in another movie?)And the Fighters are clearly on the Ready waiting for command to launch. As soon as he needs them, they're out and intercepting all the fighters coming, including the one already attacking. Should they have been out already? Sure, but General Hux was confident that the X-Wing could not penetrate its armor and was not a threat in itself.

Here's the thing - Hux is the highest ranking military officer in the FO. In other words, he knows everything there is to know about Resistance equipment (especially since they are using slightly outdated technology). How they can be modified, their vulnerabilities and their strengths. If Hux didn't know about Poe's potential in that fight, then he was entirely incompetent.

It's pretty obvious from the way things played out that Hux made awful mistakes. The thing is that they were rookie mistakes, not the kind of small misstep someone like Palpatine would make.

6 hours ago, Red Castle said:

Sure, they were so small in fact that you can't even see them attacking the transport that just fly by... as if they were no ready to intercept the only transport coming their way...

Perhaps they were staying out of the way of the turbolaser fire that was about to start pouring out of the nearby ISD? Which then suddenly wasn't an option when the Ion Cannon hit. Plus, it's well known that the on-screen elements of the hoth evacuation weren't the only aspects - there were thousands of craft all evacuating - it's entirely possible that a few transports escaped without any enemy contact just because the Imperials were focusing on fighter craft.

6 hours ago, Red Castle said:

As for Vader , when he sees that Tarkin 's plan doesn't work (of course it won't work, his plan is to do nothing), he decides to takes matters into his own hand and go out with one squadron. He doesn't think it's wise to send more and overwhelm his opponent because it's an elite squadron, so they have no problem with getting chased by X-Wing without cover. And besides, why crush the opponent by overwhelming them with sheer numbers when you could just go out and have a tight fight.

As for Piett, he did actually launched squadrons, they are just too small to be seen and not ready to intercept the only transport coming their way.

But Hux actually reacting to a threat that should not be a threat (the X-Wing can't penetrate the armor and we've seen in Episode 7 that a Star Destroyer can actually take a fighter out) is a real incompetent because the fighters (that are obviously just waiting for command seeing at what speed they come out when called) was not already out when a lone puny x-wing comes his way to parley (probably to beg for peace, in which case he'll have the pleasure to show all his power because he clearly have an ego problem)

As was seen, Vader's plan was entirely realistic. Black Squadron killed off all but three ace pilots. They then proceeded to kill one (Biggs), severely damage another (Wedge), and Vader was narrowing in on the last when what could definitely be considered a Han Solo ex machina takes Vader out.

Of course, even then, Vader would have accomplished his goal - Luke would have missed and been gunned down on his next run without escorting fighters, Han would have had to bail with his larger ship anyway, and the Death Star would live. Only the fact that Luke was a space wizard thought to have been killed off by the Empire let luke make that shot.

Piett I'm iffy about. Of course, he's just been promoted into a position above his talent level (thanks Vader), so I can accept him making some small mistakes like letting transports escape. If you've ever played Armada, you'd know that Transports can very easily die in seconds to ISD fire, so not scrambling fighters against them was an acceptable course of action.

A lone puny fighter flown by a Commander (without the authority to offer or accept surrender terms) isn't grounds for a peace accord, so that's out as an option. Hux deciding to brag - when he should know that the X-wing was a threat - is another rookie error. Hux not scrambling fighters the moment he drops out of hyperspace to attack the remaining grounded forces is a mistake. And if nothing else, he managed to miss the incredibly slow and large mass of bombing craft moving towards him in open space - that would have been a great reason to scramble fighters earlier. Strangely enough though, that was Hux's best military performance - every other time we see him he's more incompetent.

6 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Ok, so just have Vader use the Force to make sure that doesn't happen!

I mean, they could since a certain individual crushed a Star Destroyer with the force, I don't see why this can't happen.

2 hours ago, Astech said:

See, that officer wasn't asking if he should sound an alert to evacuate the whole Death Star, he was simply advising Tarkin that the space station wasn't invincible after all - an incredibly small weakness had been discovered in a well-defended trench. Tarkin, being the arrogant, power-hungry man he was, refused to evacuate himself (thus losing credibility). It's a totally reasonable course of events.

Tarkin not scrambling fighters is also a good tactical move. If that rebel base was destroyed, those starfighters would be grounded within a week, never to fly again. It was pointless to scramble fighters against an enemy you could beat without ever shooting them.

Virtually none? It's nonsensical to leave exposed fighters grounded when an air battle is raging nearby - that's leaving unprotected assets out for the enemy.

In the old EU an enemy of Rogue Squadron sends an entire flight (72) of TIE fighters to kill them - six per X-wing, in territory unfamiliar to the X-wings. Even then Wedge wasn't sure if he would die. Hux sending any less than that against next-generation fighters is just ridiculous.

Here's the thing - Hux is the highest ranking military officer in the FO. In other words, he knows everything there is to know about Resistance equipment (especially since they are using slightly outdated technology). How they can be modified, their vulnerabilities and their strengths. If Hux didn't know about Poe's potential in that fight, then he was entirely incompetent.

It's pretty obvious from the way things played out that Hux made awful mistakes. The thing is that they were rookie mistakes, not the kind of small misstep someone like Palpatine would make.

Perhaps they were staying out of the way of the turbolaser fire that was about to start pouring out of the nearby ISD? Which then suddenly wasn't an option when the Ion Cannon hit. Plus, it's well known that the on-screen elements of the hoth evacuation weren't the only aspects - there were thousands of craft all evacuating - it's entirely possible that a few transports escaped without any enemy contact just because the Imperials were focusing on fighter craft.

As was seen, Vader's plan was entirely realistic. Black Squadron killed off all but three ace pilots. They then proceeded to kill one (Biggs), severely damage another (Wedge), and Vader was narrowing in on the last when what could definitely be considered a Han Solo ex machina takes Vader out.

Of course, even then, Vader would have accomplished his goal - Luke would have missed and been gunned down on his next run without escorting fighters, Han would have had to bail with his larger ship anyway, and the Death Star would live. Only the fact that Luke was a space wizard thought to have been killed off by the Empire let luke make that shot.

Piett I'm iffy about. Of course, he's just been promoted into a position above his talent level (thanks Vader), so I can accept him making some small mistakes like letting transports escape. If you've ever played Armada, you'd know that Transports can very easily die in seconds to ISD fire, so not scrambling fighters against them was an acceptable course of action.

A lone puny fighter flown by a Commander (without the authority to offer or accept surrender terms) isn't grounds for a peace accord, so that's out as an option. Hux deciding to brag - when he should know that the X-wing was a threat - is another rookie error. Hux not scrambling fighters the moment he drops out of hyperspace to attack the remaining grounded forces is a mistake. And if nothing else, he managed to miss the incredibly slow and large mass of bombing craft moving towards him in open space - that would have been a great reason to scramble fighters earlier. Strangely enough though, that was Hux's best military performance - every other time we see him he's more incompetent.

from a military tactics standpoint Ozzel already bungled whatever capture plan Vader had in mind on hoth. Piett did what he could and Veers saved the situation.

3 hours ago, Astech said:

See, that officer wasn't asking if he should sound an alert to evacuate the whole Death Star, he was simply advising Tarkin that the space station wasn't invincible after all - an incredibly small weakness had been discovered in a well-defended trench. Tarkin, being the arrogant, power-hungry man he was, refused to evacuate himself (thus losing credibility). It's a totally reasonable course of events.

Tarkin not scrambling fighters is also a good tactical move. If that rebel base was destroyed, those starfighters would be grounded within a week, never to fly again. It was pointless to scramble fighters against an enemy you could beat without ever shooting them.

''We've analyzed their attack, sir, and there is a danger.'' So, if your officer tells you that there is a danger, enough so that he politely advise you to go away, the first things that comes to mind is: an incredibly small weakness had been discovered in a well-defended trench. Not, 'hmmm, maybe we should take care of that.' Whatever fits your narative. Still sounds pretty stupid and incompetent to me though.

And now not scrambling fighters at all is actually a good tactical move? Letting your enemy craft destroying your battlestation is actually a good tactical move? You're actually as desillusional as Tarkin, impressive!

3 hours ago, Astech said:

Virtually none? It's nonsensical to leave exposed fighters grounded when an air battle is raging nearby - that's leaving unprotected assets out for the enemy.

In the old EU an enemy of Rogue Squadron sends an entire flight (72) of TIE fighters to kill them - six per X-wing, in territory unfamiliar to the X-wings. Even then Wedge wasn't sure if he would die. Hux sending any less than that against next-generation fighters is just ridiculous.

That's virtually none? There is Tie Fighter everywhere in the sky!

But you are okay with Tarkin leaving unprotected assets out for the enemy by scrambling no squadron at all. I mean, those turbolasters on the Death Star didn't cost nothing, probably more than those Tie Fighters...

And let go the EU, it doesn't mean anything now. Unlearn what you have learned....

3 hours ago, Astech said:

Perhaps they were staying out of the way of the turbolaser fire that was about to start pouring out of the nearby ISD? Which then suddenly wasn't an option when the Ion Cannon hit. Plus, it's well known that the on-screen elements of the hoth evacuation weren't the only aspects - there were thousands of craft all evacuating - it's entirely possible that a few transports escaped without any enemy contact just because the Imperials were focusing on fighter craft.

You made quite a movie in your head to justify that there is no Tie Fighter to intercept the transports. You're quite deep in denial...

3 hours ago, Astech said:

As was seen, Vader's plan was entirely realistic. Black Squadron killed off all but three ace pilots. They then proceeded to kill one (Biggs), severely damage another (Wedge), and Vader was narrowing in on the last when what could definitely be considered a Han Solo ex machina takes Vader out.

Of course, even then, Vader would have accomplished his goal - Luke would have missed and been gunned down on his next run without escorting fighters, Han would have had to bail with his larger ship anyway, and the Death Star would live. Only the fact that Luke was a space wizard thought to have been killed off by the Empire let luke make that shot.

But, you just said that it would be ridiculous to send any less than 6 Tie Fighters per X-Wing.... Now sending a ratio of 1:1 (or is it even less?) is realistic? Because they are elite? Yeah, okay.

And thinking about it, it looks to me that Vader realising that those fighters are a real threat that should be dealt with kinda acknowledge that Tarkin is in fact an incompetent, because he should have realise it too. He certainly doesn't approve of Tarkin's good tactical move to not scramble squadrons at all.

4 hours ago, Astech said:

If you've ever played Armada, you'd know that Transports can very easily die in seconds to ISD fire, so not scrambling fighters against them was an acceptable course of action.

Yes, I played Armada a lot. But no, a FFG miniature games should never be used to simulate what would happen. Just... no.

4 hours ago, Astech said:

A lone puny fighter flown by a Commander (without the authority to offer or accept surrender terms) isn't grounds for a peace accord, so that's out as an option.

Ever heard of the expression 'Don't shoot the messenger'? It's a known practice to send a messenger if you want to discuss a surrender. That's kinda the first step, white flag and all...

4 hours ago, Astech said:

And if nothing else, he managed to miss the incredibly slow and large mass of bombing craft moving towards him in open space - that would have been a great reason to scramble fighters earlier.

Well, all fighters were already out and ready to intercept when the bombers showed up. And they would have actually stop them all if it was not for what could definitely be considered a Paige ex machina that drop the bombs from the last bomber at the last moment right before the Dreadnought shoot the Raddus.

54 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

But you are okay with Tarkin leaving unprotected assets out for the enemy by scrambling no squadron at all. I mean, those turbolasters on the Death Star didn't cost nothing, probably more than those Tie Fighters...

Well, we have no real idea of what things in star wars cost, so a real-world parallel is the closest we can come. The lowest budget real-world military combat aircrat (that are half-decent) like the SU-34 still cost 36 million USD. The most expensive mobile ground artillery would probably be the M1-A2, costing a meagre 6.2 million USD each. Of course, stationary ground artillery is far cheaper than that, and stationary AA weapons are cheaper still.

If the same relative costs hold true in Star Wars (which they really should, on the face of it), then risking a single TIE fighter is far worse than letting the X-wings pound cheap turrets for a couple minutes.

54 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

But, you just said that it would be ridiculous to send any less than 6 Tie Fighters per X-Wing.... Now sending a ratio of 1:1 (or is it even less?) is realistic? Because they are elite? Yeah, okay.

And thinking about it, it looks to me that Vader realising that those fighters are a real threat that should be dealt with kinda acknowledge that Tarkin is in fact an incompetent, because he should have realise it too. He certainly doesn't approve of Tarkin 's good tactical move to not scramble squadrons at all.

Yes, ridiculous to send less than 6 average skill TIEs. Vader is the best pilot in the galaxy, Black Squadron is one of the best star fighter squadrons.

Vader and Tarkin were rivals. Whatever Tarkin did, Vader had to outdo or belittle. Killing off the fighters that posed small threat lets Vader say "Your station only succeeded because I protected your little plan". Maybe Vader also disagreed with Tarkin's tactical decsions, but that misses the main point.

54 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

Ever heard of the expression 'Don't shoot the messenger'? It's a known practice to send a messenger if you want to discuss a surrender. That's kinda the first step, white flag and all...

It's also an incredibly obvious ploy for time. 'Oldest one in the book' doesn't even begin to cover it. Really, sending a low ranking officer to parley while, within view of the parleying party rallying and escaping.

54 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

Well, all fighters were already out and ready to intercept when the bombers showed up. And they would have actually stop them all if it was not for what could definitely be considered a Paige ex machina that drop the bombs from the last bomber at the last moment right before the Dreadnought shoot the Raddus.

Paige ex machina aside, it's also a huge tactical blunder to let heavy bombers anywhere near capital ships. Its been a critical part of real world warfare since the second world war. Sending out interceptor craft long before bombers reach their target is an obvious and easy way of dealing with them.

54 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

You're actually as desillusional as Tarkin , impressive!

You made quite a movie in your head to justify that there is no Tie Fighter to intercept the transports. You're quite deep in denial...

Attacking a person instead of their argument is a pretty sad move.