If I used this card on a 1/1 Shugenja and selected Toturi 6/3 from graveyard,

then I Way of the Lion then I Legion of One,

whats my final MIL skill?

I believe it would be 15 or 18 (if you paid a fate). Ancestor's Strength sets the base skill to another card's printed skill. Much like two Way of the Lions will quadruple, Way of the Lion accepts the new skill as the base skill. Then afterwards, Legion of One will award +3/0 once or twice.

As far as I know, there aren't any layers shenanigans going on here, like in MtG.

The thing is, this result doesn't depend on the order in which you trigger the effects. Every time you apply a new modifier to a value, you recalculate it. First, you calculate the base value, starting from the printed value (or the value that is defined in an effect like Strength of the River), applying non-set additive modifiers, then non-set multiplicative modifiers, then set modifiers. Then, you calculate the current value, starting from the base value you just calculated, applying modifiers in the same order.

So I guess there are layers, after all.

ok someone in the playgroup wasnt sure if Ancestor is actually a “Set Base” type of card.

Although if it its indeed that way, other way around after you do double Way to say a 3/3 Shugenja and for some reason suddenly used Ancestor and called Toturi then this Shugenja by right will just have 6 Mil as it is the last Set Base card applied.

My bad. Actually, My Ancestor's Strength overrides Way of the Lion, since both operate on base values and My Ancestor's Strength sets it. So the character's final military skill is 9 (base doubled and set to 6; current +3).

5 hours ago, Khudzlin said:

My bad. Actually, My Ancestor's Strength overrides Way of the Lion, since both operate on base values and My Ancestor's Strength sets it. So the character's final military skill is 9 (base doubled and set to 6; current +3).

No?

You set the base value to 6 with AS and copying Toturi.

Then you WotL, duplicating the base value (which is 6), so you set it to 12.

Then, you use aLoO to give +3, making it 15 MIL.

If you use WotL first and then AS, yes, AS changes whatever base value the shugenja had to the new value (6)

Edit: oh, you were referring to your other post about recalculating values... sorry, I thought it was an answer to the first post.

21 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

No?

You set the base value to 6 with AS and copying Toturi.

Then you WotL, duplicating the base value (which is 6), so you set it to 12.

Then, you use aLoO to give +3, making it 15 MIL.

If you use WotL first and then AS, yes, AS changes whatever base value the shugenja had to the new value (6)

Edit: oh, you were referring to your other post about recalculating values... sorry, I thought it was an answer to the first post.

I was referring to all first 3 posts (the question, the first answer and my first post). The order in which WotL and MAS are resolved doesn't matter, the "set" from MAS will always override the doubling from WotL.

Currently it's unclear if Way of the Lion is a set effect (and would thus stack with My Ancestor's Strength). Although the card itself doesn't use the word set, the FAQ entry for the card does- " Way of the Lion doubles a character's base skill and sets it to the new value. " It's possible the word set was used colloquially in the rulebook, but it does require clarification.

1 hour ago, Khudzlin said:

I was referring to all first 3 posts (the question, the first answer and my first post). The order in which WotL and MAS are resolved doesn't matter, the "set" from MAS will always override the doubling from WotL.

It matters. See the ruling in WotL for reference. You have a base skill. You play WotL to set a new base skill that is double the prior base skill. Then you can play another WotL, that affects that new base skill, setting yet another new base skill. So in the end you have 4x the first base skill.

With AS, it happens the same. You set a new base skill, you use WotL over that new base skill, setting then another new base skill.

6 minutes ago, Evilgm said:

Currently it's unclear if Way of the Lion is a set effect (and would thus stack with My Ancestor's Strength). Although the card itself doesn't use the word set, the FAQ entry for the card does- " Way of the Lion doubles a character's base skill and sets it to the new value. " It's possible the word set was used colloquially in the rulebook, but it does require clarification.

It has clarification in the RRG, under appendix III-Q&A:

If I play Way of the Lion (Core, 167) to double my character's base skill, and then play a second Way of the Lion, what is my character's new base skill?

Way of the Lion doubles a character's base skill and sets it to the new value. When you play a second copy of Way of the Lion, the new value will be doubled (to now be quadruple the original skill value).

Did you actually read my post? You quoted exactly what I quoted, but ignored what I actually said. That's a 'clarification' on the stacking of Ways of the Lion, it say whether or not they intended the word 'set' to be a part of how the card works.

Way of the Lion is not a "set" modifier because the word "set" doesn't appear in its text. Multiple "set" modifiers would not combine: the last one would override the others.

15 minutes ago, Evilgm said:

Did you actually read my post? You quoted exactly what I quoted, but ignored what I actually said. That's a 'clarification' on the stacking of Ways of the Lion, it say whether or not they intended the word 'set' to be a part of how the card works.

You said that “currently is unclear if WotL is a set effect”, but in its clarification, it clearly says “sets it to a new value”. I don’t know what clarification you’re looking for after that.

17 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

Way of the Lion is not a "set" modifier because the word "set" doesn't appear in its text. Multiple "set" modifiers would not combine: the last one would override the others.

Ok. If we follow your logic (which implies ignoring the clarification in the RRG for WotL):

AS sets a new base value. WotL modify that base value. As you said, WotL is not a “set” effect, so yeah, it combines with AS. Because nothing says you cannot modify a base value.

If if we actually take into account the clarification for WotL, it’s even clearer.

Order matters. AS and then WotL makes the new value: (base value set by AS)x2

WotL and the AS, yeah, then AS overrides whatever value was set by WotL.

12 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

As you said, WotL is not a “set” effect, so yeah, it combines with AS. Because nothing says you cannot modify a base value.

I never said base values cannot be modified (because they absolutely can). "Set" modifiers override non-"set" modifiers. From the "Modifiers" section, page 11:

Quote

When a value is "set" to a specific number, the set modifier overrides all non-set modifiers (including any new non-set modifiers that are added during the duration of the set value). If multiple set modifiers are in conflict, the most recently applied set modifier takes precedence.

The text in parentheses clearly says order of resolution doesn't matter between set and non-set modifiers.

Aw, I was really hoping there wouldn't be layers. But I guess it looks like 'Set' effects are applied in the final layer, as it were. So if WotL is not a set effect (rules text says 'double' rather than set, which is open to interpretation I guess?) then it won't have any effect because Ancestors will apply in a subsequent layer and undo any change it may have made. But if WotL is supposed to set equal to double, then they'll apply in the same layer and I guess order would matter.

Fortunately so far I think we've just seen 'set' used with base values, which avoids most of the confusing/unintuitive interactions where you set something and later try to modify it, to no effect, since the base values can be added upon for the total value.

Wicked Tetsubo and Strength of the River both set current values.

Someone in our discord group explained Ancestor is a set card and WoTL is not so WoTL will not have any effect.

This seems correct as when you read WoTl it “doubles” but not set base strength so only Ancestor does that.

unlike banzai and legion of one that “buffs” Wotl tries looking at the current base value and change it which it wont be able to do since its already been “set” by Ancestor. *

*Thanks to MadMagician86 for the input.

I will ask Tyler to amend that FAQ entry on Way of the Lion to remove the word "set" from it, to avoid confusion.

5 minutes ago, mplain said:

I will ask Tyler to amend that FAQ entry on Way of the Lion to remove the word "set" from it, to avoid confusion.

Maybe suggest they also look at throwing in an example to the RRG for the modifiers section as it can read a little confusing on a first pass.