4 minutes ago, Maktorius said:I have been putting the MCW + CI on the 2x1 archers which I place behind him. I agree that they themselves won't use MCW much, but on the other hand maybe they will stay around longer as he protects them? I always put CI on archers, so I count this as saving 6pts vs putting the whole shebang on the Lancers. But I can see how this probably is a wash
Not a terrible idea at all, especially when putting Ardus in a block of reanimates, as that surge bubble is huge
59 minutes ago, Maktorius said:I have been putting the MCW + CI on the 2x1 archers which I place behind him. I agree that they themselves won't use MCW much, but on the other hand maybe they will stay around longer as he protects them? I always put CI on archers, so I count this as saving 6pts vs putting the whole shebang on the Lancers. But I can see how this probably is a wash
54 minutes ago, rebellightworks said:Not a terrible idea at all, especially when putting Ardus in a block of reanimates, as that surge bubble is huge
Oh my gosh! I'm totally trying this!
4 hours ago, Tvayumat said:Host of Crows can enable SO MUCH; 2x1 CLs with MCW+CI, DKs with Duskblade+CI, 2x2 Archers w/ raven standard, and the classic deathcaller double tap. I think people pretty constantly underestimate the power of Ardus' speed 2 wheel maneuver, and the Reanimates using their wheel as a charge as well.
38 point two tray Deathknights and 37 point two tray lancers in a list already paying the Ardus tax!??!
Ok...
2 minutes ago, JGrand said:38 point two tray Deathknights and 37 point two tray lancers in a list already paying the Ardus tax!??!
Ok...
Yep, every time. Because in that list, it's not a tax. That's 4 units benefitting from Host of Crows, which is significant.
4 minutes ago, JGrand said:38 point two tray Deathknights and 37 point two tray lancers in a list already paying the Ardus tax!??!
Ok...
If you're looking at Ardus as a tax rather than a force multiplier and combo enabler you're already losing.
37 minutes ago, rebellightworks said:Yep, every time. Because in that list, it's not a tax. That's 4 units benefitting from Host of Crows, which is significant.
I'd agree that, much like Hawthorne, if you are not making the most of Ardus, then you shouldn't be taking him. At the same time, just because you can do something, it doesn't mean you should do something. Sinking that many points into those units is absurd. The Deathknights (which are quite frail in two tray form) also only proc the Duskblade 75% of the time. They also average about two hits.
For comparison, Rank 2x1 Deathknights average a little over three. They are better against D1 (six to four wound average) only slightly worse against D2 (three to four wound average) and slightly worse against D3 (two to three wound average). All for a "measly" savings of 10 points.
As to the Lancers, the 2x1 with MC and CI will average 1.75 hits and 1.13 surges. The 2x1 with Rank will average a little over three hits. Again, this time a "measly" six point savings.
There aren't always objectively correct answers in life, but this is one of them
Sorry, man.
36 minutes ago, Tvayumat said: If you're looking at Ardus as a tax rather than a force multiplier and combo enabler you're already losing.
Ardus is a counterpuncher, and he isn't terrible in that role. However, his dial is where he really falters. While it isn't horrid, he is slow to charge, and lacks any movement ability before i4. Round these parts, we routinely see people charging one to two distance at i2. He also has a high initiative attack, which means that it is simplistic for even new players to discern an initiative where they can outcharge him with no fear of reprisal.
I can tell you that if you are taking a core of:
Ardus with Ancient Technique
2x1 Deathknights with CI and Dawnblade
2x1 Carrion Lancers with MC and CI
For a total of 114, you are most certainly the one doing it wrong. Math alone shows how misguided those choices are.
Edited by JGrand5 minutes ago, JGrand said:I'd agree that, much like Hawthorne, if you are not making the most of Ardus, then you shouldn't be taking him. At the same time, just because you can do something, it doesn't mean you should do something. Sinking that many points into those units is absurd. The Deathknights (which are quite frail in two tray form) also only proc the Duskblade 75% of the time. They also average about two hits.
For comparison, Rank 2x1 Deathknights average a little over three. They are better against D1 (six to four wound average) only slightly worse against D2 (three to four wound average) and slightly worse against D3 (two to three wound average). All for a "measly" savings of 10 points.
As to the Lancers, the 2x1 with MC and CI will average 1.75 hits and 1.13 surges. The 2x1 with Rank will average a little over three hits. Again, this time a "measly" six point savings.
There aren't always objectively correct answers in life, but this is one of them
Ardus is a counterpuncher, and he isn't terrible in that role. However, his dial is where he really falters. While it isn't horrid, he is slow to charge, and lacks any movement ability before i4. Round these parts, we routinely see people charging one to two distance at i2. He also has a high initiative attack, which means that it is simplistic for even new players to discern an initiative where they can outcharge him with no fear of reprisal.
I can tell you that if you are taking a core of:
Ardus with Ancient Technique
2x1 Deathknights with CI and Dawnblade
2x1 Carrion Lancers with MC and CI
For a total of 114, you are most certainly the one doing it wrong. Math alone shows how misguided those choices are.
I'm not totally sure why the tone here has turned quite so adversarial.
I guess I play wrong. People seem to keep playing wrong-er, at any rate.
I'm sorry you haven't gotten the mileage out of Ardus that I have. Maybe as more combos release you'll find a place for him.
JGrand, I appreciate your post. It's thoughtful, and well written. Sadly, it outlines exactly why I hate talking about "averages".
Carrion Lancers can't roll 1.75 hits and 1.13 surges. It's not possible. I'd much rather discuss a graph plotline of probablities of actual dice rolls than mathematical constructs that don't acknowledge game mechanics. When I get back from dinner, I'll probably mock one up.
The problem with Waiqar is that their basic melee unit, the reanimates, aren't very good. Everything else they have is in the generally-decent range. But since what is supposed to be their basic, utilitarian unit is substandard, then army builds have to rely on upgrades' or other units' specialties, and your battle plan can't be as flexible as other armies.
That's not to say that you can't do anything with reanimates, but you're relying more heavily on what upgrades you put in them than many of the other factions.
4 hours ago, Bhelliom said:Vorun'Thul has the tools to choose his fights, and frankly he has very few truly bad matchups.
This is one area that Waiqar have been very weak before this: being able to force matchups you want. The wraiths and vampires will add to the Waiqar arsenal. But the wraiths fit in more as light cavalry, and Vorun'thul, while being an undead wrecking ball, is still, in the end, just a single figure.
I have tried DK + Duskblade + CI. Great ability for Ardus to take and he kicks butt with it but I have never found it to do very much on the DKs. If I am getting surges on my dice I don't have the damage to take advantage of it, sure there is that small probability of wrecking face and getting a heap of hits and surges but it so rarely comes up that the combo doesn't seem worth the cost. My local meta seems to be large cav blocks with great blue ints and high damage output. Round these parts those two trays will die before they can attack, I normally need at least 4 trays and lingering dead to get use out of them. With oathsworn running windrune its rare that flanking is an option either.
As for 110+ points for the DK + Lancer + Ardus build that doesn't seem like very much health but you can pad out your total hitpoints with large numbers of reanimates so maybe it isn't as bad as it seems but I agree there are better ways to spend those points.
I'm the Waiqur player @Bhelliom plays against a lot, and imo Waiqur are a bit weak, and would benefit the most from a two list format. Some stuff feels a bit more expensive then it should be (reanimates, 2x2 death knights, Ardus and Ankaur). But mainly the faction has a ton of counter tech (blight for death stars, executioners for siege unit/hero spam, morale stacking for deathstars, tons of sources for auto wounds/mortal wounds for high defense). But you don't know what faction you're up against, and it means you either go heavily towards 1-2 types of counters, or spread your tech so thin it isn't effective.
Basically, other factions ask questions right now, and Waiqur can answer them, but it can't answer all of them in a single list.
I like this comparison and wanted to give my simple no math analysis if it:
A. 2x1 CA with Rank Discipline (31 pts)
vs
B. 2x1 CA with CI+MCW (37 pts)
Unit A has consistency. It has very low odds of rolling no hits. It is cheaper.
Unit B has a high upside. It has a reasonable chance of rolling 1-3 double hits as each die will effectively have 2 double hit sides. Each die also has at least 2 sides without damage (3 for the red), meaning a reasonable chance of blanking 1-3 dice. It costs more.
Unit A will never charge for 10-12 damage. Unit B will... eventually (if you play with it enough).
Unit A will almost never just whiff. Unit B will... eventually (if you play with it enough).
So the reality is that taking unit B means paying 6 more points for a unit that is higher risk and higher reward. To some this might be a silly choice... But if your dice are hot you might just smash a better opponent in a way that unit A never gives you the opportunity to.
I don't think this choice is always obvious. Sometimes I love the gamble of just having one roll. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.
2 hours ago, Tvayumat said:I'm not totally sure why the tone here has turned quite so adversarial.
I guess I play wrong. People seem to keep playing wrong-er, at any rate.
I'm sorry you haven't gotten the mileage out of Ardus that I have. Maybe as more combos release you'll find a place for him.
My apologies if I came off as hostile--that wasn't my intention. I just got a little emphatic in making my (correct
) points. And I'm not entirely anti-Ardus; I just think he should be closer to 32 points including Precise 1 based on the costing of similar units. I'd love him at 32 or at 39 with a ranged attack.
2 hours ago, rebellightworks said:JGrand, I appreciate your post. It's thoughtful, and well written. Sadly, it outlines exactly why I hate talking about "averages".
Carrion Lancers can't roll 1.75 hits and 1.13 surges. It's not possible. I'd much rather discuss a graph plotline of probablities of actual dice rolls than mathematical constructs that don't acknowledge game mechanics. When I get back from dinner, I'll probably mock one up.
Right...averages aren't literal expectations. However, probabilistic thinking is, while imperfect, a methodology that drives major decision making in the contemporary world landscape for a reason.
And sure, the units you and Tvayumat are defending do have higher ceilings than the more simplistic Rank Discipline versions. At the same time, choosing the risk-reward option with a low probability over the more consistent option has never been a winning strategy in any competitive activity I've ever engaged in.
For example, if given $20,000 you would not choose to purchase $20,000 of lottery tickets over a sound investment strategy. You could end up a multi-millionaire on the lottery tickets, but that doesn't mean it is a good choice.
RW is a weird game because there are no defense dice and units can engage in multiple rounds of re-rolls. There is a level of consistency achievable in this game that makes some choices easier than others. To that end, I don't see an army of eight trays of loaded Waiqar units plus Ardus doing much against good lists.Not really a way to "prove" it until the game gets more popular and we have some larger events (and with all the new stuff, I think we will see that happen).
33 minutes ago, Rattt said:I'm the Waiqur player @Bhelliom plays against a lot, and imo Waiqur are a bit weak, and would benefit the most from a two list format. Some stuff feels a bit more expensive then it should be (reanimates, 2x2 death knights, Ardus and Ankaur). But mainly the faction has a ton of counter tech (blight for death stars, executioners for siege unit/hero spam, morale stacking for deathstars, tons of sources for auto wounds/mortal wounds for high defense). But you don't know what faction you're up against, and it means you either go heavily towards 1-2 types of counters, or spread your tech so thin it isn't effective.
Basically, other factions ask questions right now, and Waiqur can answer them, but it can't answer all of them in a single list.
This all sounds right to me, even on my most idealistic days.
18 minutes ago, JGrand said:My apologies if I came off as hostile--that wasn't my intention. I just got a little emphatic in making my (correct
No worries. I can be particularly defensive of Ardus simply because I like him. I'd be lying if I said I didn't gnash my teeth at the heroes some other factions get as I work harder to achieve the same effects.
18 minutes ago, JGrand said:
Right...averages aren't literal expectations. However, probabilistic thinking is, while imperfect, a methodology that drives major decision making in the contemporary world landscape for a reason.
And sure, the units you and Tvayumat are defending do have higher ceilings than the more simplistic Rank Discipline versions. At the same time, choosing the risk-reward option with a low probability over the more consistent option has never been a winning strategy in any competitive activity I've ever engaged in.
For example, if given $20,000 you would not choose to purchase $20,000 of lottery tickets over a sound investment strategy. You could end up a multi-millionaire on the lottery tickets, but that doesn't mean it is a good choice.
RW is a weird game because there are no defense dice and units can engage in multiple rounds of re-rolls. There is a level of consistency achievable in this game that makes some choices easier than others. To that end, I don't see an army of eight trays of loaded Waiqar units plus Ardus doing much against good lists.Not really a way to "prove" it until the game gets more popular and we have some larger events (and with all the new stuff, I think we will see that happen).
That's certainly one way of looking at it. For my money, all the math in the world doesn't mean much when so many factors in Runewars come down to what actually happens on the table. How well the players judge one another, how the initiatives play out... It's not like we are just mashing RNGs against one another, there is a degree to which the player can put his thumb on the scale.
I confess that raw statistical analysis is a useful tool (even if I don't like it in my mini games) but I prefer to argue potentials, since so much depends on how you actually
play.
There are many games in which it's difficult or impossible to play your opponent rather than playing their list, but RWM is (in my opinion) a particularly skill based game. I can often trace my loss back to a specific poor decision, and all the probabilities on the table won't save you from a bungled turn (generally).
Seems likely that a healthy application of both of these views is required for anything like a realistic perspective.
All that being said... I'd love to see Ardus get some retrospective love, in the same way I think Regenerate needs some help before it's going to really stand out as a faction identity.
4 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:That's certainly one way of looking at it. For my money, all the math in the world doesn't mean much when so many factors in Runewars come down to what actually happens on the table. How well the players judge one another, how the initiatives play out... It's not like we are just mashing RNGs against one another, there is a degree to which the player can put his thumb on the scale.
I confess that raw statistical analysis is a useful tool (even if I don't like it in my mini games) but I prefer to argue potentials, since so much depends on how you actually play.
There are many games in which it's difficult or impossible to play your opponent rather than playing their list, but RWM is (in my opinion) a particularly skill based game. I can often trace my loss back to a specific poor decision, and all the probabilities on the table won't save you from a bungled turn (generally).
Seems likely that a healthy application of both of these views is required for anything like a realistic perspective.
All that being said... I'd love to see Ardus get some retrospective love, in the same way I think Regenerate needs some help before it's going to really stand out as a faction identity.
Sure--there is certainly room for that difference of opinion. I'm with you on the element of decision-making--that aspect of the game is not quantifiable (though I will contend there is a relational agency that is at least somewhat quantifiable when it comes to dial potential). I digress...
To show that I am not a total Ardus hater, here is an Ardus idea that I like (but haven't had time to try yet):
18 hours ago, Tvayumat said:Because Ardus multiplies every surge combo you take.
With two white dice, a dialled in surge, and an extra surge of Ardus' fury, you'd be surprised how much hurt he can put out into a flank as long as the MCW+CI worms are nearby.
I get a lot of mileage out of Ardus in straight up combat, you just have to be selective about where and when you engage with him is all.
This is pretty underrated. That's quite a bit of damage out of Ardus. Doing the spreadsheet math, with 2 dialed in surges (ability + modifier) he's expected to get roughly 8.83 damage against a 1 armor target (it goes up slightly as the mortal strike gains more 'weight' -- 9.16 effective damage against a 3 armor target).
This is
without flanking
. If you're
flanking
, you get to add a
blue
dice (since it has more effective double hits) its
10.83 damage
(1 armor target) and
11.16 damage
(3 armor target)
That's pretty sexy output without any rerolling,.
Also, if you throw Fortunas on him, he has a 56% chance of maximizing his damage to 12 (w/ only the two white dice)
Edited by Glucose983 hours ago, Glucose98 said:This is pretty underrated. That's quite a bit of damage out of Ardus. Doing the spreadsheet math, with 2 dialed in surges (ability + modifier) he's expected to get roughly 8.83 damage against a 1 armor target (it goes up slightly as the mortal strike gains more 'weight' -- 9.16 effective damage against a 3 armor target).
This is without flanking . If you're flanking , you get to add a blue dice (since it has more effective double hits) its 10.83 damage (1 armor target) and 11.16 damage (3 armor target)
That's pretty sexy output without any rerolling,.Also, if you throw Fortunas on him, he has a 56% chance of maximizing his damage to 12 (w/ only the two white dice)
Doing this, I've gotten good mileage out of him on a flank as long as you engage cleverly.
Attack a rear corner with Ardus on the charge and take out the corner tray on the far side. Next turn, attack at initiative 2, and kill the tray Ardus is engaging, refusing to close in.
The flanked unit can't hit him back, and he is free to charge again the next turn. He can really frustrate a slower unit.
15 hours ago, Rattt said:...mainly the faction has a ton of counter tech ... But you don't know what faction you're up against, and it means you either go heavily towards 1-2 types of counters, or spread your tech so thin it isn't effective.
Basically, other factions ask questions right now, and Waiqur can answer them, but it can't answer all of them in a single list.
I think this is how I have felt overall with Waiqar. I feel they are a defensive faction, but not offensive. The issue is currently since there are so many offensive options, you can't just build a single defensive option that is effective. So much of your response is exactly what brought up my original post, Waiqar isn't the movement team, they aren't the damage team, they aren't the ranged team, they feel like they are a stretched thin team. I want to play a team where I look at what I WANT TO DO , not which team do I want to be strong against. Playing defensively isn't fun all of the time, I don't feel like I see the potential of bringing a team where my opponent is questioning how they are going to answer what I'm bringing.
Now, honestly, I have to disagree with the reanimates being the weakest compared to all of the factions, simply because they roll 2 red dice. None of the other factions roll 2 red dice, and considering the red dice has a double hit side, I don't really see them as the worst. Now, their speed, modifiers, etc, may weaken them, but I don't see them as the worst.
Right now, if I want to bring a new player to the game, what I say is this: Latari is for if you like agility teams, they dominate the movement, Uthuk if you just want to play a team that hits hard and deals tons of damage, they are truly and aggro team, Daqan is a great team for defensive solutions and pretty all around decent in all aspects, Waiqar... they look cool, they're undead, but I don't know their theme. Blight? Only 2 units use blight (ardus doesn't count because he just takes advantage of whatever), Reanimation? that's only the reanimates infantry and IF you decide to bring Maro that's 2 units. Ranged, only 2 units have ranged options (if you include Maro). Panic? no, Uthuk takes better advantage of that. No other banes from Waiqar, Stun is the Daqan bane of choice and Immobilize is the Latari's. Waiqar doesn't do anything specifically magically weird, yes deathcaller is cool, if you get it to trigger and IF the unit is unengaged or blighted, they don't hit hard, they don't move fast, they can only use Deaths Grasp with a single unit on the field, and no other units take advantage of it while it's applied...
Here's what I think: Reanimates should naturally add trays to the unit based on the runes. It's only 1-3 units anyway, if they are reanimating into new trays it all of the sudden becomes a bigger threat to other factions. Rules have already decided those extra trays won't add points so that isn't an issue.
Archers should also have reanimate, because otherwise they're just not as good as the other archers for other factions, and why wouldn't they have that ability?
Carrion Lancers should be able to blight engaged units. They should also get either precise or brutal considering Rune Golems get 2 red dice and brutal 1-2, and Scions are cheaper AND get the option of a ranged or melee attack.
Ardus should come with Precise naturally. His ability to steal surge abilities should be up to range 5. His cost is so high already, and considering how powerful Ravos is, I think it's ok to have dangerous and powerful heroes.
You give me those changes and I think Waiqar starts to fall in line with the other teams. Reanimates and reanimate archers have the threat of your opponent needing to close in fast, Carrion Lancers are actually powerful on their own and can use blight more often, and ardus becomes a hero that has potential.
16 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:Here's what I think: Reanimates should naturally add trays to the unit based on the runes. It's only 1-3 units anyway, if they are reanimating into new trays it all of the sudden becomes a bigger threat to other factions. Rules have already decided those extra trays won't add points so that isn't an issue.
Archers should also have reanimate, because otherwise they're just not as good as the other archers for other factions, and why wouldn't they have that ability?
Carrion Lancers should be able to blight engaged units. They should also get either precise or brutal considering Rune Golems get 2 red dice and brutal 1-2, and Scions are cheaper AND get the option of a ranged or melee attack.
Ardus should come with Precise naturally. His ability to steal surge abilities should be up to range 5. His cost is so high already, and considering how powerful Ravos is, I think it's ok to have dangerous and powerful heroes.
You give me those changes and I think Waiqar starts to fall in line with the other teams. Reanimates and reanimate archers have the threat of your opponent needing to close in fast, Carrion Lancers are actually powerful on their own and can use blight more often, and ardus becomes a hero that has potential.
Also, although overall Uthuk is still probably the "morale" faction, Wraiths are bringing three new morale-focused upgrades, so being spooky is absolutely something Waiqar can build for. As for Death's Grasp... Obcasium's is a 5 point upgrade (in an admittedly precious slot) that is a literal death sentence. A 29 point suicide unit can be virtually assured to trade for any low-wound unit that dares approach the front lines. It's not as valuable against Uthuk because of their defensive stat distribution, but it's amazing against other siege units and heroes, and even cavalry.
1 hour ago, Bhelliom said:
- Yeah that would be hilariously overpowered. Start every list with half a dozen 2x1's, enjoy your neverending undead swarm. Sounds like a cool custom objective, actually...
IF reanimates fill 3 units per turn (max limit), you still have to realize that all a 2x1 would be adding is rerolls of a single die, no threat, no value, plus they would be missing out on MASSIVE upgrades. Likely they will be adding roughly a single unit per turn, maybe 2. Plus a 2x1 could get wrecked so easily and once it got down to a single tray the threat would be null. A 2x1 gets no champion slot, no training (goodbye lingering dead), no siege unit, I just can't imagine a player being successful with 6 sets of 2x1 reanimates with the limit of upgrades.
1 hour ago, Bhelliom said:
- Reanimate Archers with Regenerate seems perfectly fine, probably wouldn't even come up that much, but calling them not as good as other archers ignores blight and the Raven-Standard Bearer. They are the very best there is at winning ranged duels, built properly.
Latari get Hunters Guile to roll a white and blue and can move out of attack range with their extra surges, Daqan gets protected, access to mortal strikes, and an armor increase with visored helms, or access to defense lowering and another mortal strike with Piercing strike.
1 hour ago, Bhelliom said:
- Carrion Lancers are already so amazingly good. The Rune Golem comparison clearly doesn't consider the dials. Seriously, Lancers have an incredible dial.
Carrion lancers, by themselves, are worthless. A single tray can't break armor for a Rune Golem with many of their hits. Literally their sweet dial means... they crash into stuff to stop them from doing other things, but then they die. That's not great. How much would you pay for a unit that will move into a unit at a fast speed, but then die during the next attack because they won't be able to do anything? People keep claiming that the rally at initiative 3 followed by a speed 3 move is great, except you waste your entire attack with the unit, and due to the initiative 5 melee attack they will likely die to whatever they are engaged with. A stand alone tray can get (perfect hit) 5 damage, with no rerolls and no brutal, meaning it's more likely 2-3 hits, the same single tray Rune Golem has natural defense of 4 and can hit with Brutal an average of 4, perfect situation 12, for a single tray. Rune Golem can move speed 4 at initiative 4, has a white reform modifier (which is HUGE considering the Lancer has to choose to ONLY reform as the action, and then increase defense. There are NO white modifiers for the carrion lancer), has a white rally modifier, can increase defense by 1-2 (not just 1). I understand that the Rune Golem can't perform a wheel or turn, but with the white reform, put your unit facing however you want EVERY TIME IT MOVES.
The death knights are cool, but they shouldn't go after ANY unit with a. high number of wounds, b. individual units (such as archers or infantry) because it's a waste of death's grasp. Basically it's a hero killer. NOW... I love the death knights so I'm not going to slam them. I might have to have an army of death knights at some time. Plus the models are super sweet looking. I just really wish that the Maro hero upgrade could have been able to be used with the death knights. As is, that's a terrible pairing, huge waste, very little advantage.
@Bhelliom you did make some great points, I might try the Raven guy in my archers in the future, that sounds fun. I PROBABLY would be fine if the Carrion Lancer ONLY got the skill changed to blight engaged units, I would just like the precise or brutal add on to make them feel like a threat to units, instead of just more of a blight tower.
3 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:Latari get Hunters Guile to roll a white and blue and can move out of attack range with their extra surges, Daqan gets protected, access to mortal strikes, and an armor increase with visored helms, or access to defense lowering and another mortal strike with Piercing strike.
Reanimate Archers can attack at initiative 4 and blight every single counter attack.
23 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:IF reanimates fill 3 units per turn (max limit), you still have to realize that all a 2x1 would be adding is rerolls of a single die, no threat, no value, plus they would be missing out on MASSIVE upgrades. Likely they will be adding roughly a single unit per turn, maybe 2. Plus a 2x1 could get wrecked so easily and once it got down to a single tray the threat would be null. A 2x1 gets no champion slot, no training (goodbye lingering dead), no siege unit, I just can't imagine a player being successful with 6 sets of 2x1 reanimates with the limit of upgrades.
Carrion lancers, by themselves, are worthless. A single tray can't break armor for a Rune Golem with many of their hits. Literally their sweet dial means... they crash into stuff to stop them from doing other things, but then they die. That's not great. How much would you pay for a unit that will move into a unit at a fast speed, but then die during the next attack because they won't be able to do anything? People keep claiming that the rally at initiative 3 followed by a speed 3 move is great, except you waste your entire attack with the unit, and due to the initiative 5 melee attack they will likely die to whatever they are engaged with. A stand alone tray can get (perfect hit) 5 damage, with no rerolls and no brutal, meaning it's more likely 2-3 hits, the same single tray Rune Golem has natural defense of 4 and can hit with Brutal an average of 4, perfect situation 12, for a single tray. Rune Golem can move speed 4 at initiative 4, has a white reform modifier (which is HUGE considering the Lancer has to choose to ONLY reform as the action, and then increase defense. There are NO white modifiers for the carrion lancer), has a white rally modifier, can increase defense by 1-2 (not just 1). I understand that the Rune Golem can't perform a wheel or turn, but with the white reform, put your unit facing however you want EVERY TIME IT MOVES.
@Bhelliom you did make some great points, I might try the Raven guy in my archers in the future, that sounds fun. I PROBABLY would be fine if the Carrion Lancer ONLY got the skill changed to blight engaged units, I would just like the precise or brutal add on to make them feel like a threat to units, instead of just more of a blight tower.
If I'm getting dozens of points for free every turn, I'm SUPER not worried about upgrades. Just drown my enemies in hundreds of points of Reanimates. Use couple units to stall, build the rest up for a few turns, now there are just too many to reasonably kill.
Comparing Lancers to Golems is... misguided. As a Daqan player, I would trade them in a heartbeat , and that's with no way to generate blight. They are so amazingly useful as blockers and objective grabbers. Consider this - if my 15 point Carrion Lancer "wastes" its attack by bumping into a 50 point enemy unit's flank, who's worse off? Even if they kill it next turn (many units, especially on a flank, can't reliably do that) that's two turns out of an eight turn game that that 50 point unit had to spend dealing with a 15 point unit, and what else were you doing during that time? Maybe Reanimate Archers are raining blight down on them, making killing that pesky Lancer even harder, or maybe a beefier unit is lining up a charge on it, or maybe you're killing their vulnerable ranged units.
Carrion Lancers have an amazing toolbox to help control combat engagements, and that's without even considering that sometimes they one-shot heroes. The 15 point solo Lancer is great at blocking, grabbing objectives, and threatening mortal strikes, and the 2x1 with Rank Discipline does the same while also fighting quite competently! Larger than that I don't have experience against, but certainly some people rave about the 3x2 with CI and MCW. If you're leaving Carrion Lancers out of your lists, you're missing out on some of the very best of the best that Waiqar has to offer.
25 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:IF reanimates fill 3 units per turn (max limit), you still have to realize that all a 2x1 would be adding is rerolls of a single die, no threat, no value, plus they would be missing out on MASSIVE upgrades. Likely they will be adding roughly a single unit per turn, maybe 2. Plus a 2x1 could get wrecked so easily and once it got down to a single tray the threat would be null. A 2x1 gets no champion slot, no training (goodbye lingering dead), no siege unit, I just can't imagine a player being successful with 6 sets of 2x1 reanimates with the limit of upgrades.
Latari get Hunters Guile to roll a white and blue and can move out of attack range with their extra surges, Daqan gets protected, access to mortal strikes, and an armor increase with visored helms, or access to defense lowering and another mortal strike with Piercing strike.
Carrion lancers, by themselves, are worthless. A single tray can't break armor for a Rune Golem with many of their hits. Literally their sweet dial means... they crash into stuff to stop them from doing other things, but then they die. That's not great. How much would you pay for a unit that will move into a unit at a fast speed, but then die during the next attack because they won't be able to do anything? People keep claiming that the rally at initiative 3 followed by a speed 3 move is great, except you waste your entire attack with the unit, and due to the initiative 5 melee attack they will likely die to whatever they are engaged with. A stand alone tray can get (perfect hit) 5 damage, with no rerolls and no brutal, meaning it's more likely 2-3 hits, the same single tray Rune Golem has natural defense of 4 and can hit with Brutal an average of 4, perfect situation 12, for a single tray. Rune Golem can move speed 4 at initiative 4, has a white reform modifier (which is HUGE considering the Lancer has to choose to ONLY reform as the action, and then increase defense. There are NO white modifiers for the carrion lancer), has a white rally modifier, can increase defense by 1-2 (not just 1). I understand that the Rune Golem can't perform a wheel or turn, but with the white reform, put your unit facing however you want EVERY TIME IT MOVES.
The death knights are cool, but they shouldn't go after ANY unit with a. high number of wounds, b. individual units (such as archers or infantry) because it's a waste of death's grasp. Basically it's a hero killer. NOW... I love the death knights so I'm not going to slam them. I might have to have an army of death knights at some time. Plus the models are super sweet looking. I just really wish that the Maro hero upgrade could have been able to be used with the death knights. As is, that's a terrible pairing, huge waste, very little advantage.
@Bhelliom you did make some great points, I might try the Raven guy in my archers in the future, that sounds fun. I PROBABLY would be fine if the Carrion Lancer ONLY got the skill changed to blight engaged units, I would just like the precise or brutal add on to make them feel like a threat to units, instead of just more of a blight tower.
There is a lot you said here that I... don't really agree with... But I take special exception to the description of solo lancers as "worthless".
First of all, the ability to crash into things and hold them there for a round or two is very valuable, and the ability to do it for 15 points is... just really good. If you bumped it before it charged you cancelled it's turn and held it there for a flank or ranged attack. If you rally defend next round it is not likely to pop 12 damage and kill you, so you hold it for another round. They are the second best blocker in the game (the best being Scions).
Secondly, I've smoked many a Rune Golem with a solo lancer. If you are taking the one vs one of these two units in a vacuum, do not underestimate the ability to spit blight on a slow unit that only rolls two dice. The lancer can also run circles around the golem and just never engage it if it wants to. Once you get into combat, if you blank on one die out of two reds, and don't land a double hit, you will do no wounds. Even if there are two blue runes, he will be defending (if he's smart). If there is one blue rune, he is going to swing back with hit on the dial and has a lower chance to wound you... but he only has to succeed twice. This fight can go on for several rounds with neither unit dying.
Outside a vacuum, supported by one 2x1 of RAs with combat ingenuity, a lancer becomes a wrecking ball that has the potential to one-shot Rune Golems (which they can usually out-charge) as well as most heroes. Nevermind how it synergizes with Ardus.
Strategically they make great objective grabbers. They are great for locking down archers, and can shoot narrow gaps to do it. They are great for holding defensive terrain and are often the first there with their early initiative rally-march. So many games I've stuck one in a piece of terrain off to the side and spit blight all game long onto heroes and archer units. 15 points for 5-6 rounds of blight tokens is b-a-n-a-n-a-s!
I'm sure I'm missing something. This unit possibly the best thing in the Waiqar army. I think you should give it another look.
I would almost always take a pair of solo lancers over a single lancer, but a single lancer is better than most other "small" options. One lancer Blights on Init6, the 2nd Lancer charges on Init7 and rolls for surges. I am looking forward to pairing a pair of lancers on one side (with high defense targets opposing) and a wraith unit on the other. Different toolkits for different applications.
As for the discussions about Faction Identity, i've ALWAYS seen Waiqar as the "Synergy" faction. The faction operates as a Sum is Greater than the Whole philosophy. Single upgrades don't oftentimes do much, or are exemplified when paired. Deathcall Disco is a great example of this. Support Carrion Lancer Blights, Simo Orders allows Deathcaller to instantly use that Blight to deal Stable Runes Wounds. Ardus can steal surge abilities and convert them from Ranged to Melee abilities (which can be amazing). Getting Ardus into the flank while stealing Carrion Lancers's ability as well as Reanimates Archers is great when you realize you can spend the first surge to assign a blight, and then use the rest as Mortal Strikes, on top of the hits he's normally rolling. Oh, and then there's a blight for the expected counter-attack after his. Waiqar is a high skill-ceiling faction, they don't do well when playing the other faction's games. They don't want to go Toe-to-Toe with Uthuk, they don't want to shift around Latari, and they don't out-attrition Daqan. They want to find a synergy within the faction and exploit every ounce of it.
First off, still, this is MY opinion, so as I counter each person, please don't take it personally, I'm giving my opinion, I'm grateful for healthy debate.
45 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:First of all, the ability to crash into things and hold them there for a round or two is very valuable, and the ability to do it for 15 points is... just really good. If you bumped it before it charged you cancelled it's turn and held it there for a flank or ranged attack. If you rally defend next round it is not likely to pop 12 damage and kill you, so you hold it for another round. They are the second best blocker in the game (the best being Scions).
I haven't played many opponents who aren't aware of an oncoming Lancer, they see it coming and they dial in an attack. You can only surprise so many players before they start seeing it coming. Based on your description, would you gladly take a 50 point unit that gets a FREE attack in an attempt to kill off 15 points worth of units without worry of getting hit? Blocking with a suicide run, dealing no damage I don't see as a good long term strategy, what is your opponent doing with the other 150 points in their army while you sacrifice 15 that won't do anything to their 50 point unit?
48 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:Secondly, I've smoked many a Rune Golem with a solo lancer. If you are taking the one vs one of these two units in a vacuum, do not underestimate the ability to spit blight on a slow unit that only rolls two dice. The lancer can also run circles around the golem and just never engage it if it wants to. Once you get into combat, if you blank on one die out of two reds, and don't land a double hit, you will do no wounds. Even if there are two blue runes, he will be defending (if he's smart). If there is one blue rune, he is going to swing back with hit on the dial and has a lower chance to wound you... but he only has to succeed twice. This fight can go on for several rounds with neither unit dying.
I don't know how you've smoked any Rune Golems with a carrion lancer, but I've certainly lost PLENTY of carrion lancers to rune golems. I've lost Ardus to a single Rune Golem. If I sent a carrion lancer alone against a hero or a rune golem, I'm sacrificing it. With no rerolls or brutal there are just too many sides on those dice that result in not breaking armor. If the Golem gets just 2 hits, they have a guaranteed wound, possibly two based on the runes.
52 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:Outside a vacuum, supported by...
Ok, so you're throwing in extra units to make the carrion lancer good. Do you know how powerful a Rune golem is when Lord hawthorne is attacking the same unit? What about Kari raining down fury? What about Ravos paired with anything? Here's what you're overlooking with your idea though, let's say I bring 5 units, and you bring 5 units, and I have 2 of my units attacking one of your units so they can "synergize" to deal damage, who is going to win? You have 5 different attacks, I get 4 because 2 of my units have to work together to make a complete unit. I just doubled how much I spent on 1 effective unit, and got half as many units as you did for your cost. Let's not forget that in your situation, we have the archers and carrion lancer attacking the same rune golem, who also attacks at initiative 5. He can rally off the blight with his white rally modifier (clearing all of the blight), or he can kill the carrion lancer making the blight meaningless, or attack before both units, due to which round it is, and kill off the carrion lancer before the archers get to fire a shot.
You also mentioned clumping the carrion lancer next to ardus, but the problem is, just how tight of a space do you keep the archers, the carrion lancer, and Ardus so that you can make that combo actually work? Eventually you're going to start tripping over the units, blocking line of sight, performing panic tests on your own units that are engaged, all for mortal strikes that are worth less than actual wounds if you face anything besides a hero or select units that have high defensive values. Since, with Ardus, every hit is worth 2 points of damage, the unit HAS to have defense of 2 or higher just to break even with the trade off. If Ardus or a 2x1 or bigger Carrion lancer is facing infantry, or archers, or pretty much all of the Uthuk, the mortal strike is worth less than a hit. With Carrion lancers, if you're looking at the 3x2 then the mortal strike has to be towards a unit with at least 3 defense to break even.
What I've faced with Waiqar is if you clump your units and move them forward so the lancers can benefit from the archers, and ardus can benefit from the archers and the carrion lancers, then your opponent has domination of the field. They either go after objectives, or they sneak around behind the clump and hit the archers who are now unguarded. Eventually you leave a hole if 3 of your units are going after one of your opponents units. If even the smallest Oathsworn unit gets behind the archers and hits them for a melee engagement, your archers are toast, Ardus loses blight, and the carrion lancers have no way to spend blight.