I love healthy debate! Opinions are exactly that, opinion.

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Ok, so you're throwing in extra units to make the carrion lancer good. Do you know how powerful a Rune golem is when Lord hawthorne is attacking the same unit?  What about Kari raining down fury? What about Ravos paired with anything?

Interesting examples, especially since all of them have very little synergy with the thing they're paired with. Adding extra damage to a target with another attack isn't making the other unit good, it's just adding another attack. Reanimate archers dumping blight onto a target to allow the Carrion Lancer to use it's surge ability is synergy . Daqan has very few interactions like this, pretty much the only one springing to mind is Hawthorne dumping Inspiration Tokens. Obligatory reference for Rallying Musician for the factions that have access to it, but that's the other 3 besides Waiqar. Spined Threshers can hand out panic tokens, Latari don't really have anything that I can think of. They can hand out tokens to the opponent, but they don't really need them to activate any other abilities, etc. Waiqar has significantly more of this than the other factions.

1 minute ago, backupsidekick said:

Let's not forget that in your situation, we have the archers and carrion lancer attacking the same rune golem, who also attacks at initiative 5. He can rally off the blight with his white rally modifier (clearing all of the blight), or he can kill the carrion lancer making the blight meaningless, or attack before both units, due to which round it is, and kill off the carrion lancer before the archers get to fire a shot.

You would spend the Blight on his Melee Attack before he could Rally it off with the Rally Action.

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Since, with Ardus, every hit is worth 2 points of damage, the unit HAS to have defense of 2 or higher just to break even with the trade off. If Ardus or a 2x1 or bigger Carrion lancer is facing infantry, or archers, or pretty much all of the Uthuk, the mortal strike is worth less than a hit.

True, but turning Surges (which are not normally dealing damage) to Mortal Strikes IS valuable.

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With Carrion lancers, if you're looking at the 3x2 then the mortal strike has to be towards a unit with at least 3 defense to break even.

This is why I love MCW+CI on the any Carrion Lancer unit bigger than a solo. It allows me to either use Surges as Mortal Strikes (if a blight is present) or as a Hit. It's turning Surges into damage! I feel (IMHO) this is worth the extra points over Rank Discipline on a smaller unit.

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You also mentioned clumping the carrion lancer next to ardus, but the problem is, just how tight of a space do you keep the archers, the carrion lancer, and Ardus so that you can make that combo actually work? Eventually you're going to start tripping over the units

Yep, this has totally happened to me, quite a few times. I practiced my Worlds list (Deathcall Disco) on Careful Approach about 30 times before getting to the event, and it massively paid off. I had an unfold approach that allowed me to respond to enemy threats but keep my synergy alive when I needed it. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. Waiqar needs it. Uthuk and Daqan require alot less finesse to use.

I LOVE this thread. Lots of good debate, lots of good tactics, etc. all while staying pretty civil for us not all being in the same room. People's approach to the game and playstyle will fundamentally change how they view choices, etc. Personally, I feel that taking Deepwood Archers with Kari and making them a 4x1 with Hawthorne is a complete total waste of points and abilities. You may feel differently. I also think Reanimate Archers are the worst unit in the game. I don't take them. When I did take them, they never worked for me, so I found something else in the faction that DID work for me. Knowledge on the internet will NEVER replace your own play knowledge. Think something is good? Awesome! Go play it 10 times and see how it does. That will give you so much better knowledge and opinions than listening to me rail on the forums or discord about what works FOR ME.

You're really pretty far off base with the Carrion Lancer, @backupsidekick . It sounds like you've had some bad experiences.

It has a great price, a great combination of HP and defense, and a great dial, not to mention huge damage potential in ideal circumstances. You aren't going to find many people to even agree that the solo Carrion Lancer isn't fantastic, let alone "worthless." It's a vastly superior siege unit to the Rune Golem, and in nearly all of my one-on-one confrontations the Carrion Lancer has come out on top.

Yes, in order to achieve peak performance, it requires support from other lancers or reanimate archers. No, it's not reasonable to discount the synergy bonuses of an army designed from the ground up around synergy. Even *without* being able to land a mortal strike for each surge, the worm is perfectly capable of locking up a solo golem for 3 turns at fewer points. If supported or in a larger unit, they simply melt golems en masse, on top of commanding engagement timing with a much more flexible dial.

I can appreciate that you haven't had great success with the unit, but you shouldn't conflate that with the unit being bad. In this game, a great deal of how good a unit is comes down to how you use it.

10 minutes ago, rebellightworks said:

I also think Reanimate Archers are the worst unit in the game. I don't take them. When I did take them, they never worked for me, so I found something else in the faction that DID work for me.

You've seen me run RAs enough to know how false this is.

For the life of me I can't figure why you keep running Maro though so...

2 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

You've seen me run RAs enough to know how false this is.

For the life of me I can't figure why you keep running Maro though so...

This, exactly. You also get incredible mileage with Ardus, and I count myself lucky if I can engage him and not get him killed. At the same time, you've seen the rampage I can cause with Maro, yet he dies every game you play with him.

Personal play experience will trump everything. Yes, I realize that I'm preaching against the things i'm doing in this thread.

23 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:

I haven't played many opponents who aren't aware of an oncoming Lancer, they see it coming and they dial in an attack. You can only surprise so many players before they start seeing it coming. Based on your description, would you gladly take a 50 point unit that gets a FREE attack in an attempt to kill off 15 points worth of units without worry of getting hit? Blocking with a suicide run, dealing no damage I don't see as a good long term strategy, what is your opponent doing with the other 150 points in their army while you sacrifice 15 that won't do anything to their 50 point unit?

Here's part of the beauty of the dial system! If you know they know you can intercept at initiative 3 so they dial an attack in at (say) 4, dial in a charge at 5. But of course they know you know they know abut the initiative 3 move, so maybe they charge at 4 instead of attacking! But you know they know you know they know so maybe you intercept after all, or just Reform and increase defense.

It's all of these options that make the Lancer strong, and make Waiqar difficult to engage on good terms.

Just now, Bhelliom said:

Here's part of the beauty of the dial system! If you know they know you can intercept at initiative 3 so they dial an attack in at (say) 4, dial in a charge at 5. But of course they know you know they know abut the initiative 3 move, so maybe they charge at 4 instead of attacking! But you know they know you know they know so maybe you intercept after all, or just Reform and increase defense.

It's all of these options that make the Lancer strong, and make Waiqar difficult to engage on good terms.

*insert conspiracy theory gif*

This. This right here is why I play Runewars. I went and watched a whole bunch of Game Theory lectures from Yale once I started playing, and they really helped me get better at the Dial System. You can find them here: https://oyc.yale.edu/economics/econ-159

2 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

You're really pretty far off base with the Carrion Lancer, @backupsidekick . It sounds like you've had some bad experiences.

First, I don't have 6 lancers, maybe I just need to suck it up and buy another expansion... we'll see. Previously I've had a grand total of 4, so my experience with 6 is non-existent. So there's that point I have to concede.

I personally have never killed a rune golem with a carrion lancer, and I played many many games, primarily against Daqan players. The RBB dice from the lancer has a total of 4 hits on a perfect roll (5 with the dialed hit), and since the Rune Golem requires at least 4 hits, without defense mods, to break armor, the rolls are unforgiving. The players I have played against typically don't just run a Rune Golem off by itself, they use them as buffers as well, so while I am using my archers to attack the rune golem, I have to deal with the panic test on the carrion lancer, plus if there are oathsworn closing in, or, in the past the Rune Golems would protect a range striking Kari, I have to worry about Kari decimating the archers. I think there's room to improve on my carrion lancer play, but dumping 70+ points into a 3x2 single unit is a hard pill to swallow for the carrion lancer star. Plus, their skill which is part of their higher cost, is completely wasted due to instead of having 6 units blighting at range, you get 1 blight. Plus if you want any lancers in an infantry star, you now need 7+. Jees, +$100 in worms? My father would be so disappointed.

3 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

...But of course they know you know they know .... But you know they know you know they know so maybe you intercept after all, or just Reform and increase defense.

It's all of these options that make the Lancer strong, and make Waiqar difficult to engage on good terms.

I see what you did there.

Honestly, sometimes that what makes this game frustrating. If I dial in a initiative 3 intercept, I know I'm losing a turn with my unit, IF I don't, then I know I'm giving my opponent the higher ground of choosing their attack. If I was the opponent, I would absolutely dial in a charge and force the carrion lancer to make a subpar initiative 3 movement or get hit. You KNOW you get first attack next round, why not force them to take the sacrifice? Forcing your opponent to sacrifice their unit, or lose their unit before they do anything with it is SO much more powerful. What do you stand to lose by dialing in the charge? Either way youdon't get hit this round, but you have the added advantage of possibly getting a free attack this round. Win Win.

In this situation, you know the carrion lancer is coming at initiative 3 because otherwise they lose. Unless it's a flank possibility and you can't charge in which case, that was never an option anyway, so the mind game of the carrion lancer is still a non-issue.

I get the idea though, of intercepting a unit before it hits something else, but you're isolating that single unit on the battle field, what else is around it though? Anyone could setup a perfect situation and say "in this instance the carrion lancer is perfect", but in the same regard, the rune golem can move 4 at initiative 4, and with the white reform, he can make sure the prior turn that he is alligned perfectly for that interception. PLUS, that initiative 4, speed 4 movement can be a charge, so the rune golem gets an attack where the lancer doesn't. It's food for thought.

11 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:

I personally have never killed a rune golem with a carrion lancer, and I played many many games, primarily against Daqan players. The RBB dice from the lancer has a total of 4 hits on a perfect roll (5 with the dialed hit), and since the Rune Golem requires at least 4 hits, without defense mods, to break armor, the rolls are unforgiving.

My friend! You're approaching Rune Golems in completely the wrong way then! Don't ever try to deal damage to them, deal wounds . Especially with Waiqar. Blight the stony bastard and roll for 2 surges, and then you have an instantly dead Rune Golem. Waiqar specializes in dealing wounds, every faction has a method for it, but Waiqar has 4 off the top of my head (not counting white dice)

11 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:

I get the idea though, of intercepting a unit before it hits something else, but you're isolating that single unit on the battle field, what else is around it though? Anyone could setup a perfect situation and say "in this instance the carrion lancer is perfect", but in the same regard, the rune golem can move 4 at initiative 4, and with the white reform, he can make sure the prior turn that he is alligned perfectly for that interception. PLUS, that initiative 4, speed 4 movement can be a charge, so the rune golem gets an attack where the lancer doesn't. It's food for thought.

Thing is... one of these ideal circumstances is based entirely on the rune token RNG. At best you can TRY to recast one of them for the cost of a champion upgrade but generally no, you can't set this up at will.

The other is dependent on whether or not you can land a blight which you absolutely have control over. You CAN set up this perfect situation reliably. The two are not analogous.

You keep comparing the raw dice+threat of the CL against the RGs. Lancers NEED blight in order to pull this off, it's been said again and again. Waiqar is a faction that thrives on synergy. Whether you like this feature or not is subjective, but you have to take it into account if you want to play them.

Rune Golems are unreliable and often unpredictable for their controller. Carrion Lancers are only unpredictable to the enemy.

11 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

You keep comparing the raw dice+threat of the CL against the RGs. Lancers NEED blight in order to pull this off, it's been said again and again. Waiqar is a faction that thrives on synergy. Whether you like this feature or not is subjective, but you have to take it into account if you want to play them.

Which is why lancers should be able to blight an engaged unit. That's my whole point on reworking the lancers and my only concern. The skill on the card ends up being rarely used due to how often the target you want to blight ends up being engaged. If you're hoping for using blight as mortal wounds, it doesn't matter how many lancers you have in the unit, each surge is still just one mortal wound.

I feel the majority of the synergy comes in the form of units having major flaws. Ardus has no surge ability, so he has to have another unit to steal from. Carrion Lancers can't blight engaged units so they have to rely on archers. Archers can't spend blight, so they have to rely on carrion lancers. That's not synergy, that's having units with half of an actual ability.

There aren't any other units in the game that require something else in order to function. Waiqar's whole theme is, you need all of the legs to make a complete table so if your opponent takes out a single leg you're screwed. The other factions are able to trust each unit to continue to function well until the end of the game, Waiqar doesn't have that luxury. It's a house of cards.

Mortal wounds are a cool concept, but not against units with 1 defense. This conversation started with "carrion Lancers can engage a 50 point unit to stop them" which is more likely a star of infantry rather than lone rune golems. Mortal strikes against infantry are a waste. All of the other siege units do well against infantry as well as heroes or other siege units, and if the unit doesn't have blight, but you really need to use your carrion lancer to stop it,the lancer is just a suicide most of the time. Without blight, the surge's are useless. The rune golems don't roll surges often, 1/8 of the time, the Scions can use the surges for a stun token without need of anything else, and the Spined Threshers doles out panic tokens AND uses those panic tokens for rerolls. Point is the mortal strikes don't work well against all units, only less than half will seriously be impacted, you have to put the blight on and keep it on for the strikes to trigger. Yes the carrion lancer can move around, but eventually it has to engage someone, and when it does you have to make sure all of the stars align, not just with where the unit is, but what the unit is, and what timing the unit moves/engages. Without the carrion lancer blighting engaged units, they rely on archers. If the archers die, the carrion lancer value declines dramatically. Since the archers attacking the unit the carrion lancer is engaged with triggers the panic test, it's not free. Yes the Carrion Lancer has some chances to deal damage, but there are so many contingencies, it's just not reliable like the other siege units. I understand the Rune Golem can be unreliable with rolls, but they also (on their OWN) have the potential to deal a lot of damage. The Carrion Lancer HAS to have another unit nearby and attacking the same unit for the same potential power, and that means that unit is more expensive due to the cost of support to function.

2 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:

make sure all of the stars align, not just with where the unit is, but what the unit is, and what timing the unit moves/engages.

Yes, but isn't this the point of the game? Atleast it is for me. If I want a straight up fight where I have majority control over all variables, I fill out a Sudoku.

Theres alot more of your post that I want to quote, but it doesn't really change my response. You talk about suiciding a CL into a 'star and how it's pointless. In your situation, yes it is, but I feel that's because you're looking at it without that CL fulfilling a role in a deeper plan. Yes, suiciding a CL without it setting up something else is pointless, however: Zooming a CL at Init3 to block a charge to enable you to charge, or to keep the unit in LoS/range of an archer unit, etc etc etc. It's the Etcera that is the important part. Having a plan is key, you can't just throw things down on the table and expect things to go your way, atleast, not with Waiqar.

"Countering an Enemy's move before he even makes it, now that's a plan!" - Col. Hannibal Smith

22 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:

Which is why lancers should be able to blight an engaged unit. That's my whole point on reworking the lancers and my only concern. The skill on the card ends up being rarely used due to how often the target you want to blight ends up being engaged. If you're hoping for using blight as mortal wounds, it doesn't matter how many lancers you have in the unit, each surge is still just one mortal wound.

I feel the majority of the synergy comes in the form of units having major flaws. Ardus has no surge ability, so he has to have another unit to steal from. Carrion Lancers can't blight engaged units so they have to rely on archers. Archers can't spend blight, so they have to rely on carrion lancers. That's not synergy, that's having units with half of an actual ability.

There aren't any other units in the game that require something else in order to function. Waiqar's whole theme is, you need all of the legs to make a complete table so if your opponent takes out a single leg you're screwed. The other factions are able to trust each unit to continue to function well until the end of the game, Waiqar doesn't have that luxury. It's a house of cards.

Mortal wounds are a cool concept, but not against units with 1 defense. This conversation started with "carrion Lancers can engage a 50 point unit to stop them" which is more likely a star of infantry rather than lone rune golems. Mortal strikes against infantry are a waste. All of the other siege units do well against infantry as well as heroes or other siege units, and if the unit doesn't have blight, but you really need to use your carrion lancer to stop it,the lancer is just a suicide most of the time. Without blight, the surge's are useless. The rune golems don't roll surges often, 1/8 of the time, the Scions can use the surges for a stun token without need of anything else, and the Spined Threshers doles out panic tokens AND uses those panic tokens for rerolls. Point is the mortal strikes don't work well against all units, only less than half will seriously be impacted, you have to put the blight on and keep it on for the strikes to trigger. Yes the carrion lancer can move around, but eventually it has to engage someone, and when it does you have to make sure all of the stars align, not just with where the unit is, but what the unit is, and what timing the unit moves/engages. Without the carrion lancer blighting engaged units, they rely on archers. If the archers die, the carrion lancer value declines dramatically. Since the archers attacking the unit the carrion lancer is engaged with triggers the panic test, it's not free. Yes the Carrion Lancer has some chances to deal damage, but there are so many contingencies, it's just not reliable like the other siege units. I understand the Rune Golem can be unreliable with rolls, but they also (on their OWN) have the potential to deal a lot of damage. The Carrion Lancer HAS to have another unit nearby and attacking the same unit for the same potential power, and that means that unit is more expensive due to the cost of support to function.

If, after this conversation, you're still convinced that Carrion Lancers are not useful, then I can only say that Waiqar is probably not the faction for you. They are built around combos and synergy, and your fixation on pure damage in a 1v1 situation is not the right mindset to approach them. Have you ever used Rune Golems? They are extremely unreliable because they have so many failure points. First, you need to get up into position (slow, when you can only move two on 3/4 turns) then you need unstable runes (two is usually fine), then you need your target to stay in place until initiative 4, then you need to roll red dice. All of those things need to go well for a favourable charge with Rune Golems. In that case, yes, their damage can be pretty great, but believe me when I tell you it's not every round.

Now, does this make Rune Golems bad? Well, honestly, a little bit, but I still took Nationals with one, so it's a useful unit. Perhaps you'd be happier using Golems?

3 hours ago, backupsidekick said:

First off, still, this is MY opinion, so as I counter each person, please don't take it personally, I'm giving my opinion, I'm grateful for healthy debate.

I haven't played many opponents who aren't aware of an oncoming Lancer, they see it coming and they dial in an attack. You can only surprise so many players before they start seeing it coming. Based on your description, would you gladly take a 50 point unit that gets a FREE attack in an attempt to kill off 15 points worth of units without worry of getting hit? Blocking with a suicide run, dealing no damage I don't see as a good long term strategy, what is your opponent doing with the other 150 points in their army while you sacrifice 15 that won't do anything to their 50 point unit?

I don't know how you've smoked any Rune Golems with a carrion lancer, but I've certainly lost PLENTY of carrion lancers to rune golems. I've lost Ardus to a single Rune Golem. If I sent a carrion lancer alone against a hero or a rune golem, I'm sacrificing it. With no rerolls or brutal there are just too many sides on those dice that result in not breaking armor. If the Golem gets just 2 hits, they have a guaranteed wound, possibly two based on the runes.

Ok, so you're throwing in extra units to make the carrion lancer good. Do you know how powerful a Rune golem is when Lord hawthorne is attacking the same unit? What about Kari raining down fury? What about Ravos paired with anything? Here's what you're overlooking with your idea though, let's say I bring 5 units, and you bring 5 units, and I have 2 of my units attacking one of your units so they can "synergize" to deal damage, who is going to win? You have 5 different attacks, I get 4 because 2 of my units have to work together to make a complete unit. I just doubled how much I spent on 1 effective unit, and got half as many units as you did for your cost. Let's not forget that in your situation, we have the archers and carrion lancer attacking the same rune golem, who also attacks at initiative 5. He can rally off the blight with his white rally modifier (clearing all of the blight), or he can kill the carrion lancer making the blight meaningless, or attack before both units, due to which round it is, and kill off the carrion lancer before the archers get to fire a shot.

You also mentioned clumping the carrion lancer next to ardus, but the problem is, just how tight of a space do you keep the archers, the carrion lancer, and Ardus so that you can make that combo actually work? Eventually you're going to start tripping over the units, blocking line of sight, performing panic tests on your own units that are engaged, all for mortal strikes that are worth less than actual wounds if you face anything besides a hero or select units that have high defensive values. Since, with Ardus, every hit is worth 2 points of damage, the unit HAS to have defense of 2 or higher just to break even with the trade off. If Ardus or a 2x1 or bigger Carrion lancer is facing infantry, or archers, or pretty much all of the Uthuk, the mortal strike is worth less than a hit. With Carrion lancers, if you're looking at the 3x2 then the mortal strike has to be towards a unit with at least 3 defense to break even.

What I've faced with Waiqar is if you clump your units and move them forward so the lancers can benefit from the archers, and ardus can benefit from the archers and the carrion lancers, then your opponent has domination of the field. They either go after objectives, or they sneak around behind the clump and hit the archers who are now unguarded. Eventually you leave a hole if 3 of your units are going after one of your opponents units. If even the smallest Oathsworn unit gets behind the archers and hits them for a melee engagement, your archers are toast, Ardus loses blight, and the carrion lancers have no way to spend blight.

Agreed! I love debating this stuff. I apologize if any of it comes off as dismissive or upset. No point in having an opinion if your not passionate about it!

I was planning on going point by to answer your post... but the day got away from me and others made my points for me. Just the one thing left I wanted to respond to:

You asked what the other 150 points of my opponents army is doing while my CL crashes into their important 50 point unit to cost them a turn. I would ask you what the other 185 points of your army is doing at the same time? Flanking and shooting I hope...

Spending 15 points to eat 2 turns of a 50 point unit means you have generated 2 turns of mismatches for the rest of your army. The pay off should be in flanking, generating superior positioning, free rounds of shooting, etc. This is the value you are getting. You cost 25% of his army 25% of it's actions for the entire game. It is not a waste.

26 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:

Agreed! I love debating this stuff. I apologize if any of it comes off as dismissive or upset. No point in having an opinion if your not passionate about it!

I was planning on going point by to answer your post... but the day got away from me and others made my points for me. Just the one thing left I wanted to respond to:

You asked what the other 150 points of my opponents army is doing while my CL crashes into their important 50 point unit to cost them a turn. I would ask you what the other 185 points of your army is doing at the same time? Flanking and shooting I hope...

Spending 15 points to eat 2 turns of a 50 point unit means you have generated 2 turns of mismatches for the rest of your army. The pay off should be in flanking, generating superior positioning, free rounds of shooting, etc. This is the value you are getting. You cost 25% of his army 25% of it's actions for the entire game. It is not a waste.

The only army I wouldnt do this against is Uthuk. I've gotten the dream, the Melee attack with a unit of berserkers to kill the suicidal blocker with Warsprinter Aggressive Shrieker to crash into the juicy underbelly in one activation. It was brutal.

I also believe that the "not engaged" restriction on the Lancers is the primary key issue for Waiqar and that dropping that would be the fix that is needed If you drop that obvious nerf you get:

1) Increased combo chance (i.e. MS triggers) for Carrion lancers when running more units of them.

2) Improving the Reanimates when running them with the Suppot Lancer as they can both attack and put on blight*. Indirectly this improves the value of Ardus due to host of crows bringing this to the 6-tray. Ankaur would also be indirectly improved as he could keept this unit on the field longer.

3) The extra potential blight would help put the brakes on the Uthuk assault that is currently unstoppable for Waiqar.

4) The extra potential blight would help the survivability in particular for the heroes and the Waraiths, thus increasing their value.

Such a small thing that could lift the whole faction from the b-side!

*The current version of the upgrade feels underpowered when compared to the FL golem and Threshers in my opinion.

16 hours ago, rebellightworks said:

*insert conspiracy theory gif*

This. This right here is why I play Runewars. I went and watched a whole bunch of Game Theory lectures from Yale once I started playing, and they really helped me get better at the Dial System. You can find them here: https://oyc.yale.edu/economics/econ-159

Thanks for this, I am totally going to check this out.

So, I'm just checking back in after a several months hiatus and maybe things have changed in that time, but there's a couple of things in the original post that make me think your perception of how powerful Waiqar were just with the starter box and what you see as their strengths and weaknesses might be based on how well you've seen them played, rather than their actual strength.

For starters, Outrider Rush is a pretty easy tactic to defend against by using terrain and interposing units to block for your archers. Out of the starter box alone, this was easy to do with single worms.

Defensively, worms are maybe the best unit in the game. The combination of armor and wounds is really difficult to deal with and I've heard more than one player decry the brokenness of the wormstar on its ability to deny points alone. (Although canny players who get to the flanks can pretty much neuter a wormstar)

No hero can go up against Ravos. He's the alpha hero. Ardus can't and neither can anyone else, so I don't know if this comparison is a good one. That said, I agree that Waiqars heroes aren't that great and haven't run either of Waiqars heroes since the Death Knights were released, because I prefer to spend my points there. I don't understand at all what the fuss over Maro is, I've never been able to get him to work, nor have I seen him work well for others. Ardus I really like except he is so dang slow. I'd like to use him as a flanker, but I just can't seem to get him there reliably.

As far as heavy hitters, Waiqar has a couple of devastating units: worm star, death Knights, and archers. Tooled up appropriately they dish damage like crazy. They can also get through armor in a way that Uthuk struggles with.

Blight is also pretty awesome. Your opponent is either suffering directly from its effects or burning lots of points and actions to deal with it. Either way I think it's a solid combination of abilities that can be really frustrating for opponents.

I was recently playing against the elves with my waiqar and ive used maro. Problem with him is his armor/wound values. His weaker when ressurecring but when depolying him with heartseeker directly BEHIND your heavy hitter block he's beast becaise he can shoot without worrying about return fire. Also he can still ressurect some trays and if someone likes golems then yoi can bring one also. Its true that waiqar are more tricky to play but in hands ofagood player they wreck havoc. The key is to position yourself in a way that units support each other.

1 hour ago, Warlordus said:

I was recently playing against the elves with my waiqar and ive used maro. Problem with him is his armor/wound values. His weaker when ressurecring but when depolying him with heartseeker directly BEHIND your heavy hitter block he's beast becaise he can shoot without worrying about return fire. Also he can still ressurect some trays and if someone likes golems then yoi can bring one also. Its true that waiqar are more tricky to play but in hands ofagood player they wreck havoc. The key is to position yourself in a way that units support each other.

I've thought about using Heartseeker Maro multiple times. I never pulled the trigger because I have an opponent who pretty much always brings Maegan and another who pretty much always brings Kari with Fortuna's. Maegan can hit Maro without being in his range. Kari with Fortuna's can dial in surges and kill him in 2 rounds.

Have you had any luck dealing with these two?

23 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:

I've thought about using Heartseeker Maro multiple times. I never pulled the trigger because I have an opponent who pretty much always brings Maegan and another who pretty much always brings Kari with Fortuna's. Maegan can hit Maro without being in his range. Kari with Fortuna's can dial in surges and kill him in 2 rounds.

Have you had any luck dealing with these two?

Maro shoots after their activations, typically. I keep Maro back (and out of Maegan's splash if possible). Position him in ways that if your opponent wants to get shots off, they have to move into his range. Then he gets the first shot off. It doesn't work all the time, but it's very solid when it does

My maro was positioned behind 6 tray archers block so if kari want to come for maro with melee splash she must A) survive archers volley (with tempered steel it might be difficult already) and B) by comming closer she comes into maro's late Ranged attack and with violent forces thats already a wound on her possibly another from dice. My list also involves death caller support carrion combo and that gives just another way to deal damage to those heroes. But for now its just theory. Will find out next sunday on tournament how it will work

14 hours ago, QuickWhit said:

I've thought about using Heartseeker Maro multiple times. I never pulled the trigger because I have an opponent who pretty much always brings Maegan and another who pretty much always brings Kari with Fortuna's. Maegan can hit Maro without being in his range. Kari with Fortuna's can dial in surges and kill him in 2 rounds.

Have you had any luck dealing with these two?

So I tried it tonight against what I think is a pretty good Uthuk list.

My list:

Total Cost: 200

Reanimate Archers [18] 2x1
Combat Ingenuity [6]
Total Unit Cost: 24

Carrion Lancers [15] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 15

Death Knights [24] 2x1
Obcasiums Gauntlet [5]
Total Unit Cost: 29

Wraiths [24] 3x1
Unhallowed Wind [4]
Faces of the Fallen [2]
Total Unit Cost: 30

Reanimates [35] 3x2
Executioner [6]
Blighted Vexillum Bearer [3]
Marching Drummer [2]
Total Unit Cost: 46

Ankaur Maro [40] 1x1
Heartseeker [10]
Violent Forces [6]
Total Unit Cost: 56

My opponents list:

Total Cost: 199

Kethra Alaak [34] 1x1
Bonecaster [8]
Total Unit Cost: 42

Spined Threshers [28] 2x1
Devouring Maws [3]
Total Unit Cost: 31

Spined Threshers [28] 2x1
Devouring Maws [3]
Total Unit Cost: 31

Spined Threshers [28] 2x1
Total Unit Cost: 28

Flesh Rippers [22] 2x1
Dead Sprint [4]
Total Unit Cost: 26

Berserkers [37] 3x2
Rallying Shrieker [4]
Total Unit Cost: 41

I was terrified of this Uthuk list... I didn't think I had enough damage to chew through the Threshers. But I was able to get Careful Approach for deployment after he picked the seize the artifacts objective. I think this was a mistake on his part. He did it because one of the other objectives was demoralize their forces and I have a few good flankers in my list. But I was able to box him in with terrain and give myself a full 4 rounds to get set up. Then Maro did work. All told he did 26 damage and raised two trays of Reanimate Archers. He even regenerated one wound, putting him out of range of potentially dying to Kethra's skill the last round. Not sure this would have gone as well in a different deployment, but I'm pleased with the value I got out of him tonight. I'll be running him with these upgrades again.

Other notables:

My DK's charged into a 2x1 of spined threshers with 2 blue runes, rolled 3 hits for 6 damage and a severity 3 morale test (they had whiffed a charge). The morale test allowed me to remove the uninjured tray. Obcasium's finished them off at the end of the round. This was a pretty big swing in my favor and sealed the game for me.

I got no mileage out of the new wraith upgrades because I had to throw them out in front of my archers to prevent them from getting tied up. They got shredded. I will probably give these another go next time I play.

I also got no mileage out of executioner because he got sniped by Kethra early. Not sure it would have mattered though as the reanimates ended up spending most of the game tied up with the berserkers (and winning with support from the archers).

Solo Lancer ended up babysitting an artifact while spitting blight. Got two blight out of him and secured 30 points. Was also able to use him as a bait to draw in some of my opponents army before zipping him away to safety. 15 points well spent.

@QuickWhit , that is an awesome victory! Incidentally, most Uthuk losses I've heard about are on Careful Approach, which definitely tells us something about the way that army likes to move. I wonder if there's some way to cause a "Careful Approach" style engagement, even with a different deployment.

2 hours ago, QuickWhit said:

My DK's charged into a 2x1 of spined threshers with 2 blue runes, rolled 3 hits for 6 damage and a severity 3 morale test (they had whiffed a charge). The morale test allowed me to remove the uninjured tray. Obcasium's finished them off at the end of the round. This was a pretty big swing in my favor and sealed the game for me.

I feel I should point out that Loss of Faith allows your opponent to decide which tray to lose. When the morale deck refers to "you," it is referring to the owner of the morale deck. For another example, take a look at Communication Breakdown: "Each of your units at range 1-2 of this unit receives 1 inspiration token." If "you" referred to the opponent, then you'd deal a morale card to give them inspiration tokens! Which is clearly not the case.

8 hours ago, Parakitor said:

@QuickWhit , that is an awesome victory! Incidentally, most Uthuk losses I've heard about are on Careful Approach, which definitely tells us something about the way that army likes to move. I wonder if there's some way to cause a "Careful Approach" style engagement, even with a different deployment.

I feel I should point out that Loss of Faith allows your opponent to decide which tray to lose. When the morale deck refers to "you," it is referring to the owner of the morale deck. For another example, take a look at Communication Breakdown: "Each of your units at range 1-2 of this unit receives 1 inspiration token." If "you" referred to the opponent, then you'd deal a morale card to give them inspiration tokens! Which is clearly not the case.

Thank you! I certainly have had success in general on Careful Approach with Waiqar. As noted previously in this post, they are the faction of synergy and getting 3 rounds to set up really helps them.

Holy crap I just re-read the card and we have been doing this wrong for a year... Not sure, but this could have changed the outcome of the game as it amounted to 6 free damage. The unit still would have died from Obcasiums by the end of the game, but it would likely finished off my DKs (5 points for Obcasiums) and might have gotten another swing off on something else (though I probably could have avoided it). In the end I won by exactly 50 points. Would have been a much closer game without this incorrect interpretation of the card...