Pls nerf ECM finally FFG

By >kkj, in Star Wars: Armada

Just like XI7 this card is so good that its an auto-include on every ship that has one or multiple single defense tokens like Brace. Its so good in fact, that it shapes the whole way we think about ships and fleetbuilding and the playability value of many ships.

Because ECM is just so good, it almost automatically makes ever ship that CANNOT take it a worse option.

Ships like the Victory and the Raider are considered less competitive by many people because they simply have no def retro slot. Same problem goes for the Interdictor und Quasar to some extent, though they do have a monopoly in very specialized roles which for the most part makes up for it.

(I know there are other issue with the vic, but those can be "fixed" by your playstyle, objec tives, commander etc so no problem there)

Rebel Fleets have dominated the competitive play since the game's start and i think until now there has never been a Imperial Fleet winning a World Championship. (Granted, that doesnt necessarily say much but still interesting)

So lets take a look at the rebel ships. All of the ships that lack the def retro slot (Nebulon, Hammerhead, Liberty, Pelta) are seen much less often at the table in competitve games for some reason. Coincidence? I think not. Because the same issue can be spotted at the imperial fleets, ISDs dominate the scene and everyone cries about every other ship that does not have Tua-ECM beeing lackluster in some way. (I am not one of those players, but i still notice this phenomenon)

And before you start ragetyping about Yavaris and Demolisher, yeah those are exceptions but only because they are "broken" in their own way. No one plays a Nebulon B in a carrier role without Yavaris (except for me) or thinks about whether to spend those spare 10 points on Demolisher or another upgrade/squadron. Justifying a ships competitive value by a single broken card is a poor judgement of the ship itself.

So, im aware that correlation =/= causality and that ECM isnt the reason behind all problems but it plays a major factor because its an "absolute effect". What do i mean by this? Well lets take a look at all the card effects that have been considered broken during the games lifespan.

(Pre-nerf)

-General Rieekan: Allows ALL ships and unique squadrons to stay alive for the whole round

-Demolisher: Reverses games fundamental rule of shooting before moving

-Unlimited Bomber Command Center Rerolls

-Relay: Activate squadrons across the whole play area

-Unlimited Number of cheap ship activations

-Place commander on a ship similiar cost-wise to a squadron (flotillas)

-Yavaris: Basically gives you the equivalent of 40-60 points of squadron firepower (Aces) for 5 points.

-Turbolaser Reroute Circuits: +4 Damage in best case for 7 points and the cost of exhausting two defense tokens that can cancel 2 damage, 4 in best case.

Most of these are absolute effects, which just give you an advantage without any prerequirements. Pay and profit. S ome like TRCs had SOME prerequirements but those were just too weak to balance out the benefit.

From a game designing perspective i can tell you: Absolute effects are NEVER a good idea for a game. I have seen the same problem in many other games.

And so that's the issue with ECM (and XI7 too, for that matter) Ab solute effects that let you profit in such a efficient way that not paying the cost for the upgrade and including it automatically puts you at a disadvantage. And any ship that cannot take that specific upgrade.

Imagine, how much more would for example Victories be played if ECM didn't exist in the game? You'd have the same chance of halving damage as your opponent does. (Excluding Double Brace Ships)

I really think that if FFG ever does a Armada 2.0 ECM will be one of the first things to change.

I would suggest changing ECM to the following: (I know the wording is off, but im sure you'll get what i mean)

"While defending, before the Spend Accuracy step you may exhaust this card to remove one die of your opponents attack pool that shows a accuracy symbol."

This way you can still use your brace if your opponent only rolls 1 accuracy but your opponent still has a chance to block the brace if he has 2 accuracies.

So please FFG change ECM in some way because it severely limits playing options. And while you're at it change back the XI7/Advanced Projectors Interaction to the way it worked before and increase the cost for Yavaris. (The effect is cool, just needs to cost about 15 points or so, 5 for each 3-4 extra blue squadron dice seem fair since you dont get the extra hull and defense tokens of real squadrons)

Like and share(?) this post if you too want these things to change.

Edited by >kkj

A friend and I were actually talking about this a couple days ago. I wish that ECM hadn't been printed, or that at least it wasn't quite as good as it is. Having access to your Brace is generally so overridingly important that ECM is the correct choice for large/medium base ships 95% of the time. I just feel like it restricts design space too much, and any extant choices are either just simply not as generally good or have been nerfed to oblivion (Advanced Projectors).

I'm not saying that anything will change regarding ECM, but in Armada 2.0, I would not print the card.

I like taking all those anti ECM things....

... like small ion boats with MS1s

or intel officers

I mean, I suffered it during the wave 1. I jumped onto ISD-2 while wave 2. I ended learning to fly without defensive retrofit (I think I used Titus more than Tua and I use him twice I guess) and you know what? I saved a lot of points on accuracy suppliers.

Edited by ovinomanc3r
26 minutes ago, >kkj said:

its  an "a  bsolute effe  ct  "  .

Once.

electronic-countermeasures.png

If we're losing the above, then lets go ahead and lose the below too.

sensor-team.png h9-turbolasers.png quad-turbolaser-cannons.png home-one.png swm25-captain-jonus.png

Because if ECMs is off the table, that means every single one of these could become an auto include to proc accuracy.


Or, we could leave it alone...

Edited by Darth Sanguis

When using any ISD without a Defensive slot, I struggle deciding between Tua(ECM) and Strategic Advisor.

1 minute ago, Thraug said:

When using any ISD without a Defensive slot, I struggle deciding between Tua(ECM) and Strategic Advisor.

lol I don't. I don't use neither of those two ?

Edited by ovinomanc3r
11 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I like taking all those anti ECM things....

... like small ion boats with MS1s

Yes but this requires you to get close with a small ship in a Meta of Vader Cymoons... For your little CR90 B to survive she probably needs ECM herself...

Just now, >kkj said:

Yes but this requires you to get close with a small ship in a Meta of Vader Cymoons... For your little CR90 B to survive she probably needs ECM herself...

Or, you know, Activation Priority sand good maneuver...

Yiu want to hit first anyway.

... who puts defensive retros on Vette’s , other than RBDs on Rambo’s?

Edited by Drasnighta
Just now, >kkj said:

Yes but this requires you to get close with a small ship in a Meta of Vader Cymoons... For your little CR90 B to survive she probably needs ECM herself...

swm26-disposable-capacitors.png

1 minute ago, Darth Sanguis said:

swm26-disposable-capacitors.png

Can't on a CR90.

Edited by >kkj

But @>kkj , let me turnaround as you mentioned something...

You can take my ECMs when the Rebels van run large Red Die boating ships with fleet commands and Reliable GLOBAL ways to fix said red dice towards damage with double turbo laser slots....

...Effin Vader Cymoons....

This thread feels one of those situations where someone is pissed because they didn't notice the opponent had ECMs until after rolling a huge attack and locking down the brace for a "surefire" win only to have it cut in half because of ECMS....

rCIL5c6.gif


I mean, is there any real data that suggests that ECMS is an auto include? I see them pretty commonly locally, yes, but I also see a lot of EWS and RBDs....

Edited by Darth Sanguis

This, near constant, call to nerf upgrades is getting truly annoying. I do so wish FFG had gone the rework points rout instead of the nerf rout.

As it stands we have a handful of OP cards, most of which have been nerfed, and more than double that number of cards that are over costed.

Point adjustments are the easiest fix for all of them. Nerfing only ever targets the OP cards.

I would much rather have the discussion about appropriate point costs for upgrades. It is actually easier to come to a consensus.

1 minute ago, cynanbloodbane said:

This, near constant, call to nerf upgrades is getting truly annoying. I do so wish FFG had gone the rework points rout instead of the nerf rout.

As it stands we have a handful of OP cards, most of which have been nerfed, and more than double that number of cards that are over costed.

Point adjustments are the easiest fix for all of them. Nerfing only ever targets the OP cards.

I would much rather have the discussion about appropriate point costs for upgrades. It is actually easier to come to a consensus.

I think you and I disagree on the definition of “consensus” however :D

Well, either that or “easier”.

?

But I think that’s my roundabout point on the subject.

The Rebels are (generally) more reliable defensively, having more retro slots and double braces baseline.

The Imps are generally more reliable Offensively, having copious access to dice fixing (ord ex, screed, Vader) and offensive retros in comparison.

This is asymmetric design at work, and I dare say it’s working as intended.

If ECMs are your bane, smack em with squads until they EWS instead.. ?

15 minutes ago, >kkj said:

Yes but this requires you to get close with a small ship in a Meta of Vader Cymoons... For your little CR90 B to survive she probably needs ECM herself...

If the meta is full of Vader Cymoons I guess it is not full of ECMs

5 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I think you and I disagree on the definition of “consensus” however :D

Well, either that or “easier”.

?

Ok, not so much consensus as average.

Instead of a Nerf thread, we would get a recost thread, with each poster listing a point cost. Average those numbers, and you are probably really close to an appropriate cost.

Easy, in that I can go out today and buy little repositionable stickers for all my upgrades with a price change. I don't need to print them, I can write the new points easily. Done. No folder full of new card text. No proxy card with the correct text. No sticker covering the entire text box. Easy.

2 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

If the meta is full of Vader Cymoons I guess it is not full of ECMs

Most Fleets that have one Cymoon have either Tua-ECM or SA. Since many people play large ships these days most of the time its Tua-ECM

Edited by >kkj
Just now, cynanbloodbane said:

Ok, not so much consensus as average.

Instead of a Nerf thread, we would get a recost thread, with each poster listing a point cost. Average those numbers, and you are probably really close to an appropriate cost.

Easy, in that I can go out today and buy little repositionable stickers for all my upgrades with a price change. I don't need to print them, I can write the new points easily. Done. No folder full of new card text. No proxy card with the correct text. No sticker covering the entire text box. Easy.

Design by committee then?

The problem there is you are slaved to the whim on the public... and I can name a few people who want the world to burn...

ECM is why I have turned to Intel Officer on my big hitters. You can use your defensive token once after ECM, but then your mine!

17 minutes ago, cynanbloodbane said:

This, near constant, call to nerf upgrades is getting truly annoying. I do so wish FFG had gone the rework points rout instead of the nerf rout.

As it stands we have a handful of OP cards, most of which have been nerfed, and more than double that number of cards that are over costed.

Point adjustments are the easiest fix for all of them. Nerfing only ever targets the OP cards.

I would much rather have the discussion about appropriate point costs for upgrades. It is actually easier to come to a consensus.

Except for Rieekan

3 minutes ago, >kkj said:

Most Fleets that have one Cymoon have either Tua-ECM or SA. Since many people play large ships these days most of the time its Tua-ECM

That is just one ship.

- Shoot the others.

- Ram it to death.

- Bomb it

- Overlap firing arcs.

- Bring intel officers.

- Bring MS-1

- Bring ACMs

- Fire little but consistents dice pool.

- Vaderize it.