Does anyone think that if this game is popular enough, that it will get an Epic game version similar to X-wing. where the table size will be increased to allow us to field AT-AT's and other larger units.

that being said, with the release of the old D6 version of the RPG, would they bring in vehicles from the EU in the RPG as possible units?

would this also be a way to bring in air support in the form of x-wings and TIE fighters? or at the very least being able to purchase air strikes during army building step?

I am a long time table topper and have been playing 40k since the early 90's, even have the original west end games miniatures for star wars. so large battles are something I have always enjoyed. but with 40k each turn is one sided and sometimes one armies turn could take an hour or more. legion being more back and forth will keep each player in the game constantly, so no lull to get bored.

I have over a thousand wizards of the coast star wars miniatures that I am thinking to proxy for a large battle, but I would rather support this new game and the beautiful miniatures that they are producing.

well, just wanting to know what people think about this idea and the likeliness that it could happen.

thanks for listening.

There is a "Grand Army" variant. 2v2 at 1600 points I believe. Whether that could accommodate an AT-AT or the like is questionable. That said many people have been using AT-AT models for their boards and terrain (scale questions observed).

If the game does really well, then yes probably. A not uncommon pattern has emerged in wargames that catch on. People will get extra models to modify their army lists, and yet sometimes want to use all their stuff at once, too. Then rules for bigger games will follow.

4 hours ago, Crawfskeezen said:

There is a "Grand Army" variant. 2v2 at 1600 points I believe. Whether that could accommodate an AT-AT or the like is questionable. That said many people have been using AT-AT models for their boards and terrain (scale questions observed).

Scale is the main issue. As Legion uses a front to back measuring system, even speed 1 AT-ATs almost halfway across the board on turn 1. Plus, they would require new deployment zones, since they wouldn't easily fit in the area for most deployment cards. Grand army is likely the "epic scale" play, especially as unlike X-Wing, Legion can't easily increase the required play area for "epic play" beyond 4'x6' (the size of board used in Grand Army). As 4'x6' is the standard size for many other wargames, that is the typical table size I've seen in stores' gaming areas, larger play areas would require multiple tables, reducing the number of players the store could support. Not to mention making it even more difficult for people to play at home.

Nah, what they will do is upscale it as another product like Xwing -> Armada, so Legion -> Planetfall!

Everything will be in epic FOW scale!

7 minutes ago, Irokenics said:

Nah, what they will do is upscale it as another product like Xwing -> Armada, so Legion -> Planetfall!

Everything will be in epic FOW scale!

You could say that's somewhat what Legion is to Imperial Assault.

2 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Scale is the main issue. As Legion uses a front to back measuring system, even speed 1 AT-ATs almost halfway across the board on turn 1. Plus, they would require new deployment zones, since they wouldn't easily fit in the area for most deployment cards. Grand army is likely the "epic scale" play, especially as unlike X-Wing, Legion can't easily increase the required play area for "epic play" beyond 4'x6' (the size of board used in Grand Army). As 4'x6' is the standard size for many other wargames, that is the typical table size I've seen in stores' gaming areas, larger play areas would require multiple tables, reducing the number of players the store could support. Not to mention making it even more difficult for people to play at home.

Epic ships in X-wing use different movement rules with a special maneuver tool to maintain relative scale. And Grand Army already uses a special deployment zone so that’s not an issue.

I'd be happy to have a 15mm Legion version with AT-ATs, but I don't think AT-ATs and star fighters make sense at this scale.

A big problem with playing larger battles with the rules and cards at present is command card options.

In an 800pt game, playing a 3 pip card means you will be able to activate almost half of your army in the order you wish. However, in a 1600pt game, that 3pip card really doesn’t feel so useful - and the subtle differences between 1, 2 and 3 pip cards feel quite irrelevant.

The model specific command cards still have a little more value, but even they can feel a bit watered down.

An easy solution is simply to double the number of pips on each of the generic cards. For the model specific cards, you’d need to be a bit more creative, but it’s not impossible to work out what to do.

16 hours ago, WAC47 said:

Epic ships in X-wing use different movement rules with a special maneuver tool to maintain relative scale. And Grand Army already uses a special deployment zone so that’s not an issue.

The AT-AT at scale I think is around 15", so it wouldn't fit in the range 2 (12") deployment zone of Grand Army.

You could deploy diagonally.

Grand Army format is already a thing. That’s the closest to epic you’ll see.

27 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

You could deploy diagonally.

Which would also require changing the base, as current bases are all circular (admittedly FFG did for epic X-wing ships).

The other issue is the interactions between T-47 Airspeeders with harpoon guns and AT-ATs seen in ESB wouldn't easily be possible in the game, since in game terms it would require multiple turns of movement to wrap the legs.

Armada does not have an "epic" format (to include the Death Star and/or Super Star Destroyers), so there is no guarantee of Legion getting an "Epic" style format beyond grand army.

Most likely they’ll just make the AT-AT too expensive for an 800 point game. Like if it was a heavy choice that cost 600ish pts then you’d have to be playing a 1000+ point game to field a legal force.

as for movement it would probably move like epic ships in xwing. move and pivot sideways.

3 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Most likely they’ll just make the AT-AT too expensive for an 800 point game. Like if it was a heavy choice that cost 600ish pts then you’d have to be playing a 1000+ point game to field a legal force.

as for movement it would probably move like epic ships in xwing. move and pivot sideways.

Or they won't make it at all, owing to size constraints and the price they would have to charge for the model to be profitable. They haven't made a Super Star Destroyer (and probably never will).

The AT-AT in scale (feel free to check my math, this is using the version from ESB) would be over twice as tall as the AT-ST, and almost the same in length. I think in scale, the measurements are around 18" long and 20" tall. The model would likey have an MSRP of $150-200, just for amount of material, before accounting for the costs of shipping that large of a model. The larger the model, the fewer that fit in a single shipping crate. Not to mention, on a board with an appropriate amount of terrian, the model basically can't move (depending on type of terrain), unless it destroys terrain, which then is a whole different kettle of fish. Epic works for X-wing because of how relatively empty the table is of terrain.

Plus, the Rebels do not have a canon equivalent for ground battles. Any ships such as the U-Wing are out owing to the rules for Repulser vehicles, and the U-Wing would be almost the same size as the AT-AT (including wings), and would almost assuredly be trying to balance on something after the forced move, probably taking damage for failing to complete the move.

Despite how impractical they are, I still want a giant U-wing and AT-AT

Guess I'll need to buy the near-scale toys and just make terrain.

10 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Or they won't make it at all, owing to size constraints and the price they would have to charge for the model to be profitable. They haven't made a Super Star Destroyer (and probably never will).

The AT-AT in scale (feel free to check my math, this is using the version from ESB) would be over twice as tall as the AT-ST, and almost the same in length. I think in scale, the measurements are around 18" long and 20" tall. The model would likey have an MSRP of $150-200, just for amount of material, before accounting for the costs of shipping that large of a model. The larger the model, the fewer that fit in a single shipping crate. Not to mention, on a board with an appropriate amount of terrian, the model basically can't move (depending on type of terrain), unless it destroys terrain, which then is a whole different kettle of fish. Epic works for X-wing because of how relatively empty the table is of terrain.

Plus, the Rebels do not have a canon equivalent for ground battles. Any ships such as the U-Wing are out owing to the rules for Repulser vehicles, and the U-Wing would be almost the same size as the AT-AT (including wings), and would almost assuredly be trying to balance on something after the forced move, probably taking damage for failing to complete the move.

You cannot tell me that the game designers were dreaming up this game never thought about plopping an AT-AT down on the table as the ultimate highlight of this game?

and they can totally bring something from the EU or legends (as they have in x-wing) to put on the table for rebels. or ****, make up something new like the decimator or raider.

and x-wing epic rules allow the big ships to extend from the deployment zones ,so long as the base touches the table edge.

there were a huge number of people who said huge ships would never happen in x-wing, they were wrong

there were a huge number of people who said a 3rd faction in x-wing would never happen, they were wrong

I think we just play the **** out of this game, help grow the community and we will get wonderous toys to play with!!!

asking for AT-AT's in this game is like asking for Star Destroyers in X-wing. They don't fit the scale, either in terms of the size or the scope. I doubt Disney would just let FFG make up a large vehicle that could reliably kill an AT-AT because it directly contradicts the lore. There are exactly 3 things that can kill an AT-AT in Canon, Luke with a lightsaber and explosive charge, T-47 either with a tow cable or by crashing into it, or an orbital bombardment. It is impervious to blasters, the main armament on the T-47, static gun emplacements, artillery and other such things. This comes from the movies and other Disney approved novels. The thing is we have Luke in game and he doesn't have a grenade slot, we have the T-47 and a tow cable and it doesn't work in a way to let it be take down an AT-AT like it does in the movies. An orbital bombardment would need to be super powerful in order to take one down to the point of being able to oneshot anything else on the board, and some people argue that coordinated bombardment is an orbital strike.

When I was a young man, we had rules for AT-AT's in such a game. They were so powerful we never used them even though I had a passable model, we use AT-ST's instead. West End provided for using them in D6 and it was just beyond the scope of the game. The only time it ever worked was when they released a special scenario in a magazine that was all about vehicle combat and provided paper vehicles to cut out. I think you had to play it with cm instead of inches to fit the speed and range of the weapons onto the table.

AT-AT's were really too big for the old D6 game and that was 25mm scale. Legion is much bigger than 25mm, making a believable AT-AT for it, let alone scaling the rules (Legion generally uses fewer figures than D6) would be a real challenge.

8 hours ago, KILODEN said:

You cannot tell me that the game designers were dreaming up this game never thought about plopping an AT-AT down on the table as the ultimate highlight of this game?

Then they'd made the game in a smaller scale. For example 10mm or 6mm. Scales used for most company sized vehicle based games.

And the Rebels could get the Freerunner. It originates in Legends and is now also part of canon:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Freerunner/Legends

14 hours ago, KILODEN said:

make up something new like the decimator or raider.

The Decimator is from Star Wars Galaxies, but I will admit the Raider was at least first released by FFG, only after searching for an existing vehicle that fulfilled the same role and only finding one that was too large for X-Wing. BUT, making anything new for Star Wars isn't quick, easy, or cheap as FFG has to work with Lucasfilm ever step of the way getting approval. Since the official word is that the first 2-3 YEARS of releases are already fleshed out, I doubt we'll be seeing a ton of entirely new stuff. Repurposed like the AT-RT maybe, but doubtful entirely new.

6 hours ago, RogueLeader42 said:

Then they'd made the game in a smaller scale. For example 10mm or 6mm. Scales used for most company sized vehicle based games.

And the Rebels could get the Freerunner. It originates in Legends and is now also part of canon:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Freerunner/Legends

Huh, didn't know the Freerunner made it to canon.

But this, so much this, is the crux of the issue. As well, Legion is better suited to playing out the battle inside Echo base, or even better, the ground portion of the Battle of Endor, two roughly platoon sized forces battling over objectives. An AT-AT is how the Imperial force might GET to the battle, and then contribute through Veer's card.

In X-wing epic, the change in deployment is accompanied by literally doubling the play area, to give the large ships the ability to maneuver, if only relatively minimally. Legion's board for Grand Army is the largest that is likely to be made official, for reasons I outlined above, and a 4'x6' would feel really cramped with an AT-AT on the board. To help visualize the size, set down a Range 3 measuring tool, and then stand another Range 3 stick on end and imagine that whole space full of model. Now try to visualize moving around a base the size of a range 3 measuring tool without having to remove whole pieces of terrain for the model to be able to stand. Again, the price of producing a Legion quality model of that size would require a price tag easily in the $150-200 range, which is only useful in a specific subtype of game which (so far) isn't part of organized events.

If the developers really wanted the AT-AT in the game, we would be probably playing something around the 15mm mark at largest. Legion is focused on characters, which is why FFG is only releasing named Commanders. Plus, they've been releasing organized play events that are focused more on a storyline than just straight tournament combat. Releasing vehicles like the AT-AT takes the focus off of those characters or objectives and places it squarely on the vehicles. As it stands, it could be argued that the AT-ST or TX-225A Occupier tank fits a similar role that the AT-AT would occupy, that of large, heavily armed and armoured vehicle, and identifiable from the movies WITHOUT having to be practically indestructible just to keep the "feel" canon.

9 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

The Decimator is from Star Wars Galaxies, but I will admit the Raider was at least first released by FFG, only after searching for an existing vehicle that fulfilled the same role and only finding one that was too large for X-Wing. BUT, making anything new for Star Wars isn't quick, easy, or cheap as FFG has to work with Lucasfilm ever step of the way getting approval. Since the official word is that the first 2-3 YEARS of releases are already fleshed out, I doubt we'll be seeing a ton of entirely new stuff. Repurposed like the AT-RT maybe, but doubtful entirely new.

Huh, didn't know the Freerunner made it to canon.

But this, so much this, is the crux of the issue. As well, Legion is better suited to playing out the battle inside Echo base, or even better, the ground portion of the Battle of Endor, two roughly platoon sized forces battling over objectives. An AT-AT is how the Imperial force might GET to the battle, and then contribute through Veer's card.

In X-wing epic, the change in deployment is accompanied by literally doubling the play area, to give the large ships the ability to maneuver, if only relatively minimally. Legion's board for Grand Army is the largest that is likely to be made official, for reasons I outlined above, and a 4'x6' would feel really cramped with an AT-AT on the board. To help visualize the size, set down a Range 3 measuring tool, and then stand another Range 3 stick on end and imagine that whole space full of model. Now try to visualize moving around a base the size of a range 3 measuring tool without having to remove whole pieces of terrain for the model to be able to stand. Again, the price of producing a Legion quality model of that size would require a price tag easily in the $150-200 range, which is only useful in a specific subtype of game which (so far) isn't part of organized events.

If the developers really wanted the AT-AT in the game, we would be probably playing something around the 15mm mark at largest. Legion is focused on characters, which is why FFG is only releasing named Commanders. Plus, they've been releasing organized play events that are focused more on a storyline than just straight tournament combat. Releasing vehicles like the AT-AT takes the focus off of those characters or objectives and places it squarely on the vehicles. As it stands, it could be argued that the AT-ST or TX-225A Occupier tank fits a similar role that the AT-AT would occupy, that of large, heavily armed and armoured vehicle, and identifiable from the movies WITHOUT having to be practically indestructible just to keep the "feel" canon.

You have valid points, but I think you underestimate the players of this game. I would most certainly cough up 150 clams for an AT-AT at this scale. and I have played 40k for 29 years. so I am no stranger to having game pieces as big or bigger than the AT-AT would be.

I get that this is a skirmish game, I get that to fit in a tournament setting this needs to be kept at the size it is.

but I will keep using x-wing as an example, us gamers and star wars fans (at least the OT fans) will eat this rebellion era stuff up. I bought every epic ship for x-wing and have only used the raider, about 4-5 times. the rest were on display until I moved. I will soon have them displayed again soon.

3 hours ago, KILODEN said:

You have valid points, but I think you underestimate the players of this game. I would most certainly cough up 150 clams for an AT-AT at this scale. and I have played 40k for 29 years. so I am no stranger to having game pieces as big or bigger than the AT-AT would be.

I get that this is a skirmish game, I get that to fit in a tournament setting this needs to be kept at the size it is.

but I will keep using x-wing as an example, us gamers and star wars fans (at least the OT fans) will eat this rebellion era stuff up. I bought every epic ship for x-wing and have only used the raider, about 4-5 times. the rest were on display until I moved. I will soon have them displayed again soon.

Well if all you want is a model in the right scale, Revell made one two years ago and they can be found online (1:53 scale, fairly close to Legion's 1:46).

As to the WH40k comparison, the compatible larger models (the big Titans, not the Knight which is smaller than the AT-ST) are made by Forge World, which doesn't have to supply a worldwide market, instead mostly working on a mail order design. The supply requirement makes releasing an expensive AT-AT model risky, especially as FFG doesn't have exclusive rights to producing models. While as far as I know there are no other companies producing ships at the same scales as FFG, there are quite a few companies producing land vehicles.

Regardless, there is still the issue of making it playable. In canon the AT-AT is really only seen destroyed by extraordinary measures, which do not easily translate to a tabletop game. "That armor's too strong for blasters," this direct quote, in reference to the main guns of a snowspeeder seems to indicate some in game form of "super" armor, which would ignore Impact at least.

Introducing some new Rebel weapon that is equivalent for gameplay balance would almost be akin to creating the Rebel equivalent to the SSD. The point of the big weapons is to show that the Rebellion is outgunned, but through determination, teamwork, etc. they prevail.

1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Introducing some new Rebel weapon that is equivalent for gameplay balance would almost be akin to creating the Rebel equivalent to the SSD. The point of the big weapons is to show that the Rebellion is outgunned, but through determination, teamwork, etc. they prevail.

not entirely,

this sense of dread the AT-AT should bring to the table should be real. It should be near impossible to bring down, and the rebels should not have an equivalent unit to match it. because that would not produce the dread required.

can it capture objectives?

no

is it very maneuverable?

no

will it be a high point value?

yes

will it leave you with few points to field other units that will be severely out gunned?

yes

so you will have to be unconventional when dealing with this enemy unit, and it would make a great scenario based game unit

@KILODEN Except it CAN capture objectives for Breakthrough, Key positions (if placed properly it could easily claim two or more), or any future objective that checks for "Unit Leader."

The base size is horribly problematic with terrain, as units are supposed to end their turn as level as possible. This isn't an issue in X-wing, where the terrain is (typically) flat piece of cardboard, not 3D barricades.

A unit that your opponent cannot meaningfully interact with is not good game design. The main ways we have in the game of interacting with our opponent's units are to 1) inflict damage, 2) inflict suppression/ion tokens, 3) force a movement/pivot. The prevailing tactic for "dealing" with an AT-ST is already to just ignore it, an AT-AT is just more of the same.

Not including an equivalent unit for the other army is foolish, as you now have excluded an entire portion of your player base from getting to experience the enjoyment of fielding that big, hard to deal with model. The Imperial Raider was created to give the Empire and equivalent to the Tantive V for X-wing Epic after all.