Hux is a terrible character imo. He seems to be ineffective at being anything really other than a snarling foolish jerk. I guess we need to be shown that the bad guys are bad guys by having a guy who foams at the mouth but really doesn't do anything other than that. Nazis are bad m'kay. The casting was also really weird because Domnall Gleeson is kind of a gentle looking and sounding guy, and in his Hux getup he looks like he drank a mild Mr. Jekyll drink watered down with a lot of club soda, or was just punched in the balls by someone. I really don't know what they were doing with that character and he seems really unnecessary. He makes Tarkin look like Marcus Aurelius by comparison. He's a complete idiot whom I can't imagine being convincingly scary or sinister to anyone. Add Phasma to this mix and the now defunct Snoke and it's like Luke is fiddling while the galaxy is dominated by these idiots.

16 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

Hux is a terrible character imo. He seems to be ineffective at being anything really other than a snarling foolish jerk. I guess we need to be shown that the bad guys are bad guys by having a guy who foams at the mouth but really doesn't do anything other than that. Nazis are bad m'kay. The casting was also really weird because Domnall Gleeson is kind of a gentle looking and sounding guy, and in his Hux getup he looks like he drank a mild Mr. Jekyll drink watered down with a lot of club soda, or was just punched in the balls by someone. I really don't know what they were doing with that character and he seems really unnecessary. He makes Tarkin look like Marcus Aurelius by comparison. He's a complete idiot whom I can't imagine being convincingly scary or sinister to anyone. Add Phasma to this mix and the now defunct Snoke and it's like Luke is fiddling while the galaxy is dominated by these idiots.

Hux is a bully. End of line. Ridiculed by his father, granted authority over the elder Hux’s protégés as a child by Admiral Sloane, his first act in testing that authority was to make one child brutally attack another. The First Order is no more the “real” Empire than neo-Nazis are the Third Reich. So, yeah...Hux is a foaming-at-the-mouth bad guy because, at the end of the day, that’s all the First Order really is.

39 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

Hux is a terrible character imo.

He's the cartoon villain we love to hate - weak, entitled, and full of horrible ideas that don't have any basis in reality. But at the end of the day, he's just a tool in the toolbox, both in the story and in a meta framing. I think there's some thought put into his character, he really does seem like the natural progression of the Empire's vision of the galaxy, raised watching only imperial news and none of that "fake" news - in essence, he full-on drank the kool-aid, was born in it, raise in it. He is exactly the sort of toady I would expect to be a talking head at the front of the First Order. I get what you're saying and I don't take issue with it, there's just some subtext here - dare I say a little finesse - in the character.

14 minutes ago, themensch said:

He's the cartoon villain we love to hate - weak, entitled, and full of horrible ideas that don't have any basis in reality. But at the end of the day, he's just a tool in the toolbox, both in the story and in a meta framing. I think there's some thought put into his character, he really does seem like the natural progression of the Empire's vision of the galaxy, raised watching only imperial news and none of that "fake" news - in essence, he full-on drank the kool-aid, was born in it, raise in it. He is exactly the sort of toady I would expect to be a talking head at the front of the First Order. I get what you're saying and I don't take issue with it, there's just some subtext here - dare I say a little finesse - in the character.

I think that is how I felt about him until the second movie. I haven't read anything about the characters really in these new movies, so their pulp bios didn't factor into my opinion of them, just what was actually in the movie. I agree that he seems like a propaganda guy or something, but not the highest flag officer we see. I don't think Snoke would have a hard time using an older man with more sense in that job unless he has some sort of weird problem that someone of a more mature and serious would see through. Like Snoke is grooming young men to be his followers and so he gives them big boy jobs they can't handle for the ego effect.

I guess he has room to do that cause the First Order conquered the galaxy in like 5 minutes. He seems to have room for error.

21 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

I think that is how I felt about him until the second movie. I haven't read anything about the characters really in these new movies, so their pulp bios didn't factor into my opinion of them, just what was actually in the movie. I agree that he seems like a propaganda guy or something, but not the highest flag officer we see. I don't think Snoke would have a hard time using an older man with more sense in that job unless he has some sort of weird problem that someone of a more mature and serious would see through. Like Snoke is grooming young men to be his followers and so he gives them big boy jobs they can't handle for the ego effect.

I guess he has room to do that cause the First Order conquered the galaxy in like 5 minutes. He seems to have room for error.

Snoke could just be a creepy old man, that thought hadn't passed me unnoticed. But I don't know that the First Order has conquered the whole galaxy yet, there's not enough information to surmise that definitively - although I'm sure someone has done the homework and can speak to that with authority.

21 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

I think that is how I felt about him until the second movie. I haven't read anything about the characters really in these new movies, so their pulp bios didn't factor into my opinion of them, just what was actually in the movie. I agree that he seems like a propaganda guy or something, but not the highest flag officer we see. I don't think Snoke would have a hard time using an older man with more sense in that job unless he has some sort of weird problem that someone of a more mature and serious would see through. Like Snoke is grooming young men to be his followers and so he gives them big boy jobs they can't handle for the ego effect.

I guess he has room to do that cause the First Order conquered the galaxy in like 5 minutes. He seems to have room for error.

By George, I think you’ve got it!

From what we know of the First Order and its origins (from various media), remaining elements of the actual Empire are the exception, with the idea being to indoctrinate new members to the fold as kids, and raise them in a bubble.

In fact, the “new Empire” was meant to leave the galaxy in ashes if Palpatine fell, and start anew in another galaxy. Something or someone turned that back inward. Snoke? Probably...he’s nowhere to be found in the beginnings of the First Order (that we know of, anyway). Any “older men with more sense” would have been in their 20s/30s when the Empire fell, too old to be raised in the First Order bubble, and thus more prone to independent thought than blind obedience.

And, yeah...absolutely they conquered the galaxy in five minutes, by blowing up the entire government in TFA, then stepping in to fill the void. But it also reminds me of Joker’s line in The Dark Knight: “I’m like a dog chasing a car. I don’t know what I’d do with one if I caught it.” The First Order took out the Republic...now what? Well, to someone like Hux, you sweep up what little debris is left, then do what the boss tells you to do.

6 minutes ago, themensch said:

Snoke could just be a creepy old man, that thought hadn't passed me unnoticed. But I don't know that the First Order has conquered the whole galaxy yet, there's not enough information to surmise that definitively - although I'm sure someone has done the homework and can speak to that with authority.

I’m way behind on the Poe Dameron comic which has caught up to TLJ, but we do have the crawl’s statement that, “The First Order reigns!”

3 minutes ago, themensch said:

Snoke could just be a creepy old man, that thought hadn't passed me unnoticed. But I don't know that the First Order has conquered the whole galaxy yet, there's not enough information to surmise that definitively - although I'm sure someone has done the homework and can speak to that with authority.

Isn't it in the crawl of TLJ? I know that's a description but I took them at their word.

32 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I’m way behind on the Poe Dameron comic which has caught up to TLJ, but we do have the crawl’s statement that, “The First Order reigns!”

32 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

Isn't it in the crawl of TLJ? I know that's a description but I took them at their word.

"Reigns," you got me there fellas. But I don't buy it, even the Empire at its pinnacle hadn't conquered the galaxy, just most of The Slice. It reeks of bravado. However, it could be correct, it's hard to say.

9 minutes ago, themensch said:

"Reigns," you got me there fellas. But I don't buy it, even the Empire at its pinnacle hadn't conquered the galaxy, just most of The Slice. It reeks of bravado. However, it could be correct, it's hard to say.

Hey, I agree that - unless they had forces on standby to swoop in following the chaos of Hosnian Prime’s destruction (and they may have...they knew they were firing at Hosnian and Hux gave his big speech to the assembled troops) - it’s a short span of time for the First Order to take over. But (unless I see more detail when I catch up on the comic), the crawl statement is all we have to go on. It could just be a matter of, with the Republic government all blowed up, and its structure in disarray, the First Order is the only structured organization in a position to step into that vacuum.

19 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

“General Armitage Hux, Brendol's son, was spared by Snoke in order to use him as a tool in his rise to power.”

Yes, and? That doesn't contradict what I said about Hux' father being a high ranking founding member of the First Order from whom Aldus Hux inherited his position. The fact that Snoke kept him around (and alive) after taking command of the First Order doesn't change that.

2 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

the First Order is the only structured organization in a position to step into that vacuum.

Some giant space slugs might contest that point. But we just don't know.

13 minutes ago, themensch said:

Some giant space slugs might contest that point. But we just don't know.

Granted, we don't have much in the way of stories set in the post-RotJ/pre-TFA gap, but I seem to recall the Aftermath trilogy making several references to the New Republic clamping down on the Hutts and other criminal organizations. But, I grant that I could be misremembering, as I've read/listened to the three over the course of probably a year+.

6 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Granted, we don't have much in the way of stories set in the post-RotJ/pre-TFA gap, but I seem to recall the Aftermath trilogy making several references to the New Republic clamping down on the Hutts and other criminal organizations. But, I grant that I could be misremembering, as I've read/listened to the three over the course of probably a year+.

You're probably right, I listened to them some time ago as well so my memory is fuzzy on the details. I doubt the New Republic could hug the crime out of the galaxy where the Empire couldn't exterminate it with force. Mon Mothma's peacenik ways paved the road for the First Order's easy rise - I can't imagine cartels, unions, corporations wouldn't also take advantage of that situation. Yet, given how little we know on the subject, it's all just conjecture.

Between this conversation, and another I was involved in today, I felt like rewatching TLJ tonight. I totally forgot this exchange--

Snoke (regarding Hux to Ren): You wonder why I keep a rabid cur in such a place of power? A cur's weakness, properly manipulated, can be a sharp tool.

(Of course, there's a strong case to be made that he also included a subtext of, "That's why you're here, too, punk.")

19 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Not necessarily, true.

Not necessarily not true, either. What is your point? Just being contrary?

19 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

The specific complaint about Hux to which people here are responding was that his character doesn't make sense, though.

No. Some people other than myself had that complaint. It is not irrelevant to my criticism. Why bring it up when responding to me? It vibes straw man.

19 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

It established a mood of larger-than-life daring pulp adventure, like during the Falcon's escape from Hoth, which is full of jokes. So when the raid turns out to be a disaster in the number of lives lost by the Resistance, it hits all the harder.

An entirely subjective emotional reaction. One I did not share.It is clear to the meanest understanding that people's reactions to art are subjective. I am not sure, therefore, why you are putting such effort into arguing with opinions and criticisms of this film that differ from your own. Your interpretation and reaction is no more or less valid than those who disagree with you. So, again, what was your point?

19 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Why is that? And why didn't that happen with a couple hundred million other people?

The second question casts the first in a fecetious and condescending light. As such, I'm not going to bother trying to answer it. That said, argumentum ad populum has no place in honest debate or intelligent inquiry, let alone a discussion focused onart appreciation and criticism. Indeed, it smacks of missing Warhol's jest. Just because its popular doesn't mean its good.

I don't have time to waste tilting at your windmills.

I'm out.

3 hours ago, Vondy said:

Not necessarily not true, either. What is your point? Just being contrary?

That your statement that something CAN be true doesn't mean it IS true in this case.

3 hours ago, Vondy said:

No. Some people other than myself had that complaint. It is not irrelevant to my criticism. Why bring it up when responding to me? It vibes straw man.

No, it vibes conversation.

3 hours ago, Vondy said:

An entirely subjective emotional reaction. One I did not share.It is clear to the meanest understanding that people's reactions to art are subjective. I am not sure, therefore, why you are putting such effort into arguing with opinions and criticisms of this film that differ from your own.

It's called a conversation. What is YOUR point in bringing up your experience of the film? Why do you act like I have to justify myself while you don't? That's ridiculous.

3 hours ago, Vondy said:

Your interpretation and reaction is no more or less valid than those who disagree with you. So, again, what was your point?

Of course not all intepretations and reactions are equally valid. People can be flat-out wrong in how they interpret art. When you look at a picture of a dog and call it a badly-drawn cat, your reaction isn't about the art.

3 hours ago, Vondy said:

The second question casts the first in a fecetious and condescending light. As such, I'm not going to bother trying to answer it. That said, argumentum ad populum has no place in honest debate or intelligent inquiry, let alone a discussion focused onart appreciation and criticism. Indeed, it smacks of missing Warhol's jest. Just because its popular doesn't mean its good.

It's perfectly reasonable to ask what makes you think that so many other people are wrong in their taste. With how much you insist that all takes are equally valid you're strongly implying that numbers mean something here. You could just answer instead of being evasive and combative for no reason.

3 hours ago, Vondy said:

I don't have time to waste tilting at your windmills.

I'm out.

Truly crazy that people engage with your arguments when you post them in public. The nerve!

6 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Between this conversation, and another I was involved in today, I felt like rewatching TLJ tonight. I totally forgot this exchange--

(Of course, there's a strong case to be made that he also included a subtext of, "That's why you're here, too, punk.")

Yeah, that's what I was referring to when I said Snoke is aware of Hux' limitations. The older captain on the mega-destroyer that gets taken out by Rose's sister has some choice words about Hux' competence, too. The movie doesn't expect us to just go with Hux' bumbling efforts, it shows other characters being aware of them, while also making the point that Hux is still incredibly dangerous because of all the power given to him. He's a fool, but he's a fool with a loaded gun pointed at the galaxy. And there are enough competent people around and above him that his idiocy doesn't take away from the overall threat.

Idiots with weapons is pretty much what Neo-Nazis are in real life, too. Would be really odd if the movie showed them all as competent.

10 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Idiots with weapons is pretty much what Neo-Nazis are in real life, too. Would be really odd if the movie showed them all as competent.

As someone whose identity is the target of Neo-Nazi ideology, I feel that this is an uninformed, non-nuanced view of the threat that Neo Nazis and the rise of fascism poses to marginalized groups and peoples such as myself. I would appreciate not having to read "hot takes" like this when I'm browsing a forum about a tabletop RPG and trying to engage in escapism from the world and culture that would rather see me dead.

2 hours ago, panpolyqueergeek said:

As someone whose identity is the target of Neo-Nazi ideology, I feel that this is an uninformed, non-nuanced view of the threat that Neo Nazis and the rise of fascism poses to marginalized groups and peoples such as myself. I would appreciate not having to read "hot takes" like this when I'm browsing a forum about a tabletop RPG and trying to engage in escapism from the world and culture that would rather see me dead.

Technically, I am pretty sure everyone could do without nazi references, neo or not. Technically, I think everyone could do without nazis at all, neo or not.

Seems like some people are more interested in annoying people and saying outrageous things than having a civilized discussion. I would say we are all better off not responding to it, but I am probably just threadcrapping.

20 hours ago, themensch said:

You're probably right, I listened to them some time ago as well so my memory is fuzzy on the details. I doubt the New Republic could hug the crime out of the galaxy where the Empire couldn't exterminate it with force. Mon Mothma's peacenik ways paved the road for the First Order's easy rise - I can't imagine cartels, unions, corporations wouldn't also take advantage of that situation. Yet, given how little we know on the subject, it's all just conjecture.

According the the Hutt Clan page over at Wookieepieda, this is confirmed. The death of Jabba severely weakened the Hutt cartels, resulting in them losing a significant portion of theor power and influence, including losing control of a number of their "servant" races, such as the Nikto, which had been indentured to them for centuries.

To quote:

Quote

Fading PowerEdit

In the decades following the defeat of the Empire and the rise of the New Republic, the Hutt families saw much of their once great power and influence wane, even losing control of the Nikto, a race that had been in service to the Hutts for centuries prior.^[27]

9 minutes ago, korjik said:

Technically, I am pretty sure everyone could do without nazi references, neo or not. Technically, I think everyone could do without nazis at all, neo or not.

Seems like some people are more interested in annoying people and saying outrageous things than having a civilized discussion. I would say we are all better off not responding to it, but I am probably just threadcrapping.

Eh, I think some discussion of WW2 Germany is appropriate, since it's such a big influence on the design aesthetic and ideology of the Empire/FO, but I feel that we've gone beyond thoughtful discourse and people are being unnecessarily harmed.

3 hours ago, panpolyqueergeek said:

As someone whose identity is the target of Neo-Nazi ideology, I feel that this is an uninformed, non-nuanced view of the threat that Neo Nazis and the rise of fascism poses to marginalized groups and peoples such as myself. I would appreciate not having to read "hot takes" like this when I'm browsing a forum about a tabletop RPG and trying to engage in escapism from the world and culture that would rather see me dead.

I, too, am the target of Neo-Nazi ideology. Due to being a member of an ethnic minority, in my case. My experiences with Neo-Nazis have led me to my "take" on them.

If you're seeking escapism from Neo-Nazis in game based on a movie series about British Space Nazis and their cosplay successors, it might lead to unsatisfying results.

1 hour ago, korjik said:

Seems like some people are more interested in annoying people and saying outrageous things than having a civilized discussion. I would say we are all better off not responding to it, but I am probably just threadcrapping.

Probably, yes.

1 minute ago, Stan Fresh said:

I, too, am the target of Neo-Nazi ideology. Due to being a member of an ethnic minority, in my case. My experiences with Neo-Nazis have led me to my "take" on them.

If you're seeking escapism from Neo-Nazis in game based on a movie series about British Space Nazis and their cosplay successors, it might lead to unsatisfying results.

You really need to stop.