I’ll br starting a Supers game soon and I’ve been struggling with Super Attributes. I consider super powers to be Unique Abilities and I don’t really want to complicate things too much but when you start dealing with Super Brawn a lot of questions come up.

My first inclination was to allow players to spend “power points” on a super attribute. This attribute would then operate on planetary scale. Balance issues aside, a player with a Brawn of 5 with Super Brawn is now throwing battleships around which is kind of the point, I guess.

I intended on giving the players 100 “Power Points” to buy powers with and to make sure things didn’t get to out of hand I would make the cost of a super attribute at least 60 so no PC could have more than one, possibly two if they took a strong enough weakness to counter act it. Kryotonite.

As much as I don’t want to build a Power Tree, or complicate the system, I have been thinking about using multipliers. Brawn X2, X3 etc.

Thoughts?

I'm building a tree for their powers. If they're doing super strength, that is their power, and it would have all manner of options, jumping, Pierce, picking up larger objects, throwing them, etc. If there isn't a tree for progression what do they spend their xp on? One of the best 'strengths' of this system is the opportunity to constantly advance your character after every session but that advancement is diffused so it leads to easy long term campaigns and avoids the 'too tough to lose' syndrome that occurs in something like D&D once PCs hit a certain level.

20 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

I'm building a tree for their powers. If they're doing super strength, that is their power, and it would have all manner of options, jumping, Pierce, picking up larger objects, throwing them, etc. If there isn't a tree for progression what do they spend their xp on? One of the best 'strengths' of this system is the opportunity to constantly advance your character after every session but that advancement is diffused so it leads to easy long term campaigns and avoids the 'too tough to lose' syndrome that occurs in something like D&D once PCs hit a certain level.

Here’s my issue with that. No matter what Colussus can put his fist through a car. No story points. No training. Fist through car. Every time. I can see using talents to use this power in interesting ways but super strength is super strength all day long.

That being said though, I can see using custom talents to give those powers a twist.

I think my resistance to building trees is that I want to keep everything as simple as possible. Streamlined and open the way the Magic system is.

Still though, trees may be the way to go in the end.

You're assuming Colussuss didn't spend 100 xp to be able to put his fist through a car.

1 hour ago, 2P51 said:

You're assuming Colussuss didn't spend 100 xp to be able to put his fist through a car.

I’m assuming he spent those points at character creation, possibly from a separate pool designed just for powers.

But we don't see Colossus on CHARGEN day. We see him as an experienced member of the X-Men.

The suggestion in the book is to start super characters with a bonus 50xp at CHARGEN. That sounds like a bonnie opportunity for a PC to spend 20 or so of that in a super strength tree. First rank would provide maybe a baseline set of abilities like the Force powers in Star Wars. Initial access allows super strength Athletic feats to be attempted, ie tear the vault door off, punch through a car. It might give the ability to pick up an object a sil size 2 object and wield it as a weapon, and maybe perform a vertical leap to Short range and a running long jump to Medium. That would be some basic out the door super human strength stuff.

I've been wrestling with a similar question for my Super Setting, A2020. My system has some mechanics that are specific to the setting, but it might give you some ideas to work with. Fair warning, it's rough looking. I haven't had time yet to give it the GM Binder treatment:

A2020

6 hours ago, 2P51 said:

The suggestion in the book is to start super characters with a bonus 50xp at CHARGEN. That sounds like a bonnie opportunity for a PC to spend 20 or so of that in a super strength tree. First rank would provide maybe a baseline set of abilities like the Force powers in Star Wars. Initial access allows super strength Athletic feats to be attempted, ie tear the vault door off, punch through a car. It might give the ability to pick up an object a sil size 2 object and wield it as a weapon, and maybe perform a vertical leap to Short range and a running long jump to Medium. That would be some basic out the door super human strength stuff.

My argument though is that Force Powers, like magic can be looked at as a skill that requires training and advancement to use effectively. Super Powers are always there and they’re always turned on (unless there is an imposed weakness). The character may refine how they use their power or even find new uses for those powers but they don’t need training in super strength. A fish doesn’t need training to breath water.

That beings said I can see room for advancement and talents to tweak things.

I think maybe I like the open system just a little better than trees. I wouldn’t say that you’re wrong as much as I’d say I think I’m going to try this first and see if I can’t make it work....although multipliers could work too... I don’t know.

I didn't say they need training how to breathe, but someone with super human strength doesn't know what the extent of their abilities are until they practice and are 'experienced' with them. They wouldn't know how much they could lift until they experiment. They would need to learn it isn't just if they're strong enough to lift something, but can the ground under them support the weight pressing down on only the surface area of their feet. They might be able to lift a tank by its barrel, but until they actually swing it around and get yanked off their feet because they don't weigh 70 tons and the inertia of it takes them for a ride they might not have thought of that at first. It's one thing to super jump into the air, it's the landing where you want or only jumping as far as you need to without plastering yourself on the side of the mountain that takes experience. A baby learns to walk very much through, trial, error, and practice, or put another way, experience.

29 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

I didn't say they need training how to breathe, but someone with super human strength doesn't know what the extent of their abilities are until they practice and are 'experienced' with them. They wouldn't know how much they could lift until they experiment. They would need to learn it isn't just if they're strong enough to lift something, but can the ground under them support the weight pressing down on only the surface area of their feet. They might be able to lift a tank by its barrel, but until they actually swing it around and get yanked off their feet because they don't weigh 70 tons and the inertia of it takes them for a ride they might not have thought of that at first. It's one thing to super jump into the air, it's the landing where you want or only jumping as far as you need to without plastering yourself on the side of the mountain that takes experience. A baby learns to walk very much through, trial, error, and practice, or put another way, experience.

We have already have skills that cover most of what you’re talking about though. Here, lets make sure we’re at least disagreeing about the same thing. Let me show you what I’m talking about.

Character creation happens in a normal fashion. This is a snapshot of the PC before they received their powers through spider-bite, mutation, etc. I view powers as Unique Abilities as opposed to skills or talents. Page 193 -“ THe best unique abilities are those that define a biological element of a species that can’t be defined through skills or talents. This includes things like the ability to fly, breathe underwater, or not breathe the same atmosphere as the rest of us.”

The character then receives an additional 100 Power Points with which to buy powers.

Super Strength cost 80 - when calculating brawl or melee damage multiply success by ____. Can lift items weighing up to ______ and sil of _____.

Notice this doesn’t increase their chances of hitting their target. It only increases the damage they do. They still need combat or athletics training to do something well but when they succeed its incredibly effective.

Does that make more sense?

7 hours ago, 2P51 said:

But we don't see Colossus on CHARGEN day. We see him as an experienced member of the X-Men.

Actually we do see him on CHARGEN day.Giant SIze X-Men #1. He puts his body in front of a moving combine to save his sister and it crumbles around him.

I would say at this point we just disagree and just end it at that.

There’s so many ways to do supers in Genesys it’s ridiculous. All of them have benefits, all have drawbacks.

1. Use Supers exactly as they are presented in the core book. In this system the thing that defines what a pc is capable of is the players imagination and the GM’s decision of how hard that imagination is. This is the really narrative way to play Supers.

As an example let’s take a look at Super Brawn. A player decides they want to lift a car, the gm decides that because it’s a super stat they need to make a Hard Athletics check. They want to throw it? It’s a check using the Ranged skill but Brawn characteristic, and it goes Short Planetary Range.

Super Agility could cover flying (I would probably make a unique skill in this instance, one that can only be used with ranks and only able to buy ranks if it’s a career skill) or stretchy arms, or hyper speed. It’s just up to how the player described the power.

2. Talents. Plain and simple, you unlock super powers by buying talents, you break the normal rules in specific ways. Some talents have requirements, such as purchasing other talents first.

eg Wealthy; you have lots of money, anything Rarity 2 + ranks in this talent is readily available to you, you never have to pay for it although your still required to find it in a shop.

3. Heroic Abilities. Take the Realms of Terrinoth concept and Super it, make new ones and change existing ones to suit the Super Powers you want. These have no xp cost, making them a perfect way to balance all the different Super Powers that players want. Having no cost also allows the players to invest xp in other regular talents without feeling like they are falling behind in their super powers. You may (should?) even allow players to purchase additional base Abilities such as starting with Strength but later getting Flying as well, I would simply give a Hero Point cost to each basic ability.

4. Create Super Power Trees. The most common way people decide to go, you copy the Force Power tree system from Star Wars, players get a base ability and unlock a specific sequence of upgrades using xp. It works well, especially if your accustomed to the Star Wars system. It does very specifically define what a super power does which is highly desired by some groups, but balked at by others. See others posts for examples of how to do this.

5. Use the Magic system from Genesys. You make Super actions in the same format as the Spells, a base effect and difficulty with a list of additional effects. The skills used are Super Skills such as Super Strength, Flight, Wealth, Super Speed, Super Tech, Telepathy, Telekinesis, Regeneration etc. Then each Super Skill gains access to a selection of the Super Actions.

For example you may develop Fly; an Average Difficulty Action usable with Flight, Speed, Tech and Telekinesis with the Concentrate option. The basic effect gives you the Swift ability. Additional Effects include Hover (D), Fly (DD), Additional Target (Telekinesis only, D), Vehicle Speed Flight (DDD)

6. Some combination of all the above. 1 works well with everything, 2 does to a certain extent as well. 3, 4, and 5 all kind of exclude each other, but since some represent certain powers better than others they can definitely be mixed. This is probably my preference, since you can use the mechanic that best suits the power, although the simplicity of the Heroic Ability system is really appealing too.

How do you guys and gals feel about having Super (Characteristic) being represented by Decreasing difficulty by some number. For giggles, will set the number to 3.

This would shift the Scale to the right, making Hard their new Simple, and letting them make Impossible, Really Impossible, and Unbelievable checks*.

*I'm not married to the names, they're for illustrative purposes.

I definitely think it should be done, but not with such a precise adjustment. Melee combat needs to stay at an Average Difficulty or else combat would become completely broken, but the types of things you can fight in melee with changes.

Instead of finding a German Shepherd challenging (as a normal human) you can take on a T-Rex! Or you can punch a car, or a wall. It’s all about the player asking a different question to what they would with a normal character: “can I lift that shipping container and put it in their way” that’s a completely unrealistic question in a normal game, but in a Supers game the gm should go “yep! Hard difficulty”

32 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

I definitely think it should be done, but not with such a precise adjustment. Melee combat needs to stay at an Average Difficulty or else combat would become completely broken, but the types of things you can fight in melee with changes.

Instead of finding a German Shepherd challenging (as a normal human) you can take on a T-Rex! Or you can punch a car, or a wall. It’s all about the player asking a different question to what they would with a normal character: “can I lift that shipping container and put it in their way” that’s a completely unrealistic question in a normal game, but in a Supers game the gm should go “yep! Hard difficulty”

That's exactly what shifting the difficulty is supposed to represent, while also still giving the player the answer about what to do if they happen to need to punch a German Shepherd.

The core issue with Supers is that there's going to be wacky imbalances between the characters. It's not supposed to be a smart move for Hawkeye to get into a fistfight with Luke Cage.

I don't see an issue with super characteristics. Sure Hulk CAN lift a tank with no other variables but does he always pull it off without getting knocked off his feet or distracted? No, probably not. Failure on a check doesn't always mean the failure is due to the character's inherent inability to accomplish said task. A good portion of the time, outside variables influence how the story goes.

It's like in Star Wars if you were dead set on a character needing the Reflect talent when an attack against them misses, just so you can narrate that they reflected it. The character really doesn't need the talent for you to describe the missed attack, you have free creative license to describe the action, regardless of what the character sheet says.

So uh, assuming you're using the Magic route to represent a Super Characteristic, what's the best way to do it, and what's an appropriate difficulty/cost?