At a store championship yesterday a friend of mine was told that he cannot use Hera crew on his U-wing to keep doing 0 maneuver pivot wing 180 degree flips while stressed. The judge ruled that:

" Hera allows maneuvers, not effects. And that the flip is an effect after the maneuver is revealed. Hera allows you to stay put when stressed but not keep flipping."

Was the judge correct?

43 minutes ago, IceManHG said:

At a store championship yesterday a friend of mine was told that he cannot use Hera crew on his U-wing to keep doing 0 maneuver pivot wing 180 degree flips while stressed. The judge ruled that:

" Hera allows maneuvers, not effects. And that the flip is an effect after the maneuver is revealed. Hera allows you to stay put when stressed but not keep flipping."

Was the judge correct?

This somewhat falls under the following ruling:

Revealing Red Maneuvers

When a player reveals a red maneuver for a stressed ship, the only card effects he may resolve are those that change the maneuver to a different one (Adrenaline Rush, Navigator, etc.). After resolving these effects, if the ship would still be executing a red maneuver, the owner moves the ship as if it were assigned a white [2-straight] maneuver instead. The speed, bearing, and difficulty of this maneuver cannot be changed. (Emphasis mine).

Even though Hera allows him to reveal/execute the red, he is unable to keep turning around with Pivot Wing as it doesn't change the difficulty of the maneuver.

There are three things at play here: The rules for Hera, for the Pivot Wing title, and for revealing a red maneuver when stressed...

Assuming all the previous things are in place (stressed, wings closed, Hera equipped), and you reveal a full stop, the first thing that you look at is the U-Wing title. When you REVEAL the stop maneuver, you may rotate your ship. However, the FAQ states that the only card effects you may resolve are those that change either the maneuver or its difficulty. For that reason, you cannot activate Pivot Wing's first effect. Hera, though, allows the full stop to happen, as she supersedes the second part of the FAQ entry that would force the 2-straight maneuver. After executing the full-stop, you can activate the second part of the title card, because the maneuver would then be complete, and the FAQ restrictions would no longer apply.

SHORT VERSION: No, you can't flip around with Hera + Pivot Wing while stressed.

I strongly disagree.

The fact that Hera says "reveal and execute" and not just "execute" to me means that she doesn't just let you execute the move, but also she obviates the entire rule in the FAQ regarding "Revealing Red Maneuvers," and thus the restrictions on taking using other effects. To cite the rule about what happens when you reveal a red maneuver while stressed is kind of silly to me, since Hera pretty explicitly tells you to ignore that rule.

I'm with Bitter Fig on this one. Hera allows you to reveal and execute red maneuvers when stressed. I hope everyone agrees that Hera can keep the U-Wing stationery for multiple turns.

The pivot wing card allows the rotation after revealing a stop maneuver. The only prerequisite for the rotation is revealing a stop maneuver. No mention of being unstressed, no limitation on the number of times it can be done or that the rotations can't be on consecutive turns.

The T.O. was incorrect in his ruling.

Except that the wording of Hera was necessary for its time of release (Wave 8, in March of 2016), when revealing a red maneuver while stressed was still considered to inherently be an illegal maneuver. That made the wording "reveal and execute" specifically important. The U-Wing came out two waves and almost a full year later (Wave 10, February 2017). It was shortly after that point that the FAQ first changed to reflect the new rules for revealing red maneuvers while stressed ( FAQ 4.3.0 , March 2017). This FAQ was the origin of the "two straight" rule for red maneuvers while stressed, rather than letting your opponent select your maneuver."

I bring these up, because Hera's wording reflected a different time in the game, when revealing a red maneuver while stressed would otherwise be considered an illegally set dial. That status changed as of FAQ 4.3.0; the fact that she can REVEAL a red maneuver now is irrelevant; any ship can. Hera lets you resolve the maneuver as well, disregarding the two-straight rule in the FAQ... so you do indeed stay put. She does not , however, ignore the rest of the rulings in the FAQ, just because it's convenient for the player to do so. The FAQ clearly states that, when a ship reveals a red maneuver while stressed (which any ship is permitted to do now), it may only resolve card effects that allow you to alter the maneuver. Pivot Wing does not alter the maneuver; it alters the facing of the ship, before the execution of the maneuver. Per the FAQ, it can't trigger while stressed.

Do what the card says to do. Don't do what the card doesn't say to do.

This is where I disagree. Hera' s ability takes effect after the movement is revealed. It's here that I would need to play a card that changed the difficulty of the maneuver, if I was stressed, or do the two straight. Hera' s ability triggers and ignores that section of the rules. We're now past that point and pivot wing can be played.

If the above isn't convincing enough, consider this card combo has been available for over a year and only now a T.O. is denying it.

If we go by " Do what the card says to do. Don't do what the card doesn't say to do. ", then Hera would still allow you to reveal the stop maneuver, and the title would still allow you to turn 180° .

As for the argument of " time of Hera's release " and " different time in the game ", neither hold water for me. Because if you reveal a red while you are stressed, it's still considered an illegal maneuver. The only thing that the FAQ has changed, is the penalty for doing so. Instead of handing your dial over to your opponent, you execute the 2-straight instead.

So, @emeraldbeacon , explain to me how the FAQ entry stops the title from triggering. The ship has revealed a stop maneuver as required by the title. And Hera has allowed that stop maneuver to be revealed while the ship is stressed . The FAQ states that if you don't have something that will change the maneuver to non-red, then you're doing the 2-straight. There's nothing on either card that prohibits anything and the FAQ ruling does not prohibit cards abilities from being used if their trigger condition is met.

11 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Except that the wording of Hera was necessary for its time of release (Wave 8, in March of 2016), when revealing a red maneuver while stressed was still considered to inherently be an illegal maneuver. That made the wording "reveal and execute" specifically important. The U-Wing came out two waves and almost a full year later (Wave 10, February 2017). It was shortly after that point that the FAQ first changed to reflect the new rules for revealing red maneuvers while stressed ( FAQ 4.3.0 , March 2017). This FAQ was the origin of the "two straight" rule for red maneuvers while stressed, rather than letting your opponent select your maneuver."

I bring these up, because Hera's wording reflected a different time in the game, when revealing a red maneuver while stressed would otherwise be considered an illegally set dial. That status changed as of FAQ 4.3.0; the fact that she can REVEAL a red maneuver now is irrelevant; any ship can. Hera lets you resolve the maneuver as well, disregarding the two-straight rule in the FAQ... so you do indeed stay put. She does not , however, ignore the rest of the rulings in the FAQ, just because it's convenient for the player to do so. The FAQ clearly states that, when a ship reveals a red maneuver while stressed (which any ship is permitted to do now), it may only resolve card effects that allow you to alter the maneuver. Pivot Wing does not alter the maneuver; it alters the facing of the ship, before the execution of the maneuver. Per the FAQ, it can't trigger while stressed.

Do what the card says to do. Don't do what the card doesn't say to do.

Thing is, that's exactly what Hera says to do.

I think it requires a much more fiddly, "doing what it doesn't say" interpretation to say that Hera ignores part of the rule (that she isn't changed to a white 2-forward), but not all of the rule (cannot use other game effects), without any guide from the FAQ or the card text as to why she should only ignore part of the rule. Ignoring the entire rule is the much simpler interpretation, and I think it's far truer to the text.

To me, the fact that Hera explicitly says "you may reveal and execute red maneuvers " and fact that the relevant rule in the FAQ is specifically titled " Revealing Red Maneuvers " should have a great deal of weight here. If Hera only said "you may execute" or if the rule in the FAQ was called something else, I think the "Hera's ship cannot Pivot Wing flip" or any similar Hera arguments would have more behind it. But the card text and the rule title are exactly what they are.

I'll add: I initially thought Hera shouldn't allow such effects (I think I even had a thread on Hera's ship dropping bombs when revealing red maneuvers while stressed), but found the "Hera can" argument far more convincing than the "Hera cannot." The more I've thought about it and the plain language, the stronger I've felt Hera ignores the entire rule.

Ok, let me try and address everyone's concerns.

First off, the FAQ rule change (prohibiting non-move-change card effects) was included, specifically to prohibit U-Wing shenanigans. Some players found that they could dial in a red stop while stressed, rotate with the Pivot Wing, then execute the required two-straight maneuver, turning it into (effectively) a white reverse-2 k-turn . Which, of course, is ludicrous, but permitted as the rules were written. With the FAQ change to "only card effects that change maneuver," the use of Pivot Wing on a red maneuver was stopped cold.

The inclusion of "you may reveal" on Hera is an artifact of a previous wave, where revealing a red maneuver while stressed was considered to be an "illegal dial" setting. As it stands now, every ship in the game is now permitted to reveal a red maneuver while stressed. As such, the focus on the first part of Hera's card, "you may reveal," is a moot point. ANYBODY can do that. What they can't do is EXECUTE the red maneuver... and that's what Hera permits. That's what her card does.

But, the fact that she allows you to execute the maneuver doesn't miraculously circumvent the FAQ. A red maneuver was still revealed. Therefore, the FAQ takes precedence, and needs to be followed. Nothing on Hera says that you can resolve any card effects you wish, so you are limited only to card effects that change the maneuver. Pivot Wing doesn't do this, so it is a card effect that cannot be applied.

9 hours ago, Stoneface said:

This is where I disagree. Hera' s ability takes effect after the movement is revealed. It's here that I would need to play a card that changed the difficulty of the maneuver, if I was stressed, or do the two straight. Hera' s ability triggers and ignores that section of the rules. We're now past that point and pivot wing can be played.

If the above isn't convincing enough, consider this card combo has been available for over a year and only now a T.O. is denying it.

The timing of Pivot Wing is actually BEFORE the maneuver happens. So you would turn your ship around, then execute the 0-stop. Thus, the FAQ prohibits the Pivot Wing card effect due to the red-maneuver-while-stressed rule.

9 hours ago, Parravon said:

If we go by " Do what the card says to do. Don't do what the card doesn't say to do. ", then Hera would still allow you to reveal the stop maneuver, and the title would still allow you to turn 180° .

As for the argument of " time of Hera's release " and " different time in the game ", neither hold water for me. Because if you reveal a red while you are stressed, it's still considered an illegal maneuver. The only thing that the FAQ has changed, is the penalty for doing so. Instead of handing your dial over to your opponent, you execute the 2-straight instead.

So, @emeraldbeacon , explain to me how the FAQ entry stops the title from triggering. The ship has revealed a stop maneuver as required by the title. And Hera has allowed that stop maneuver to be revealed while the ship is stressed . The FAQ states that if you don't have something that will change the maneuver to non-red, then you're doing the 2-straight. There's nothing on either card that prohibits anything and the FAQ ruling does not prohibit cards abilities from being used if their trigger condition is met.

Remember, an FAQ ruling that restricts supersedes a card ruling that permits . The FAQ states that only effects that change the maneuver are allowed. Pivot Wing doesn't do this, so it doesn't work. Hera, has nothing to say about the first part of "revealing red maneuvers." She allows you to do it, sure... but so can anybody. Revealing a red is not illegal anymore (not like straight-with-shaken-pilot, or a mis-assigned dial with an unavailable move). Then you follow the rules in the FAQ until she has something to say about it. Hera allows you to execute your dial maneuver instead of the 2-straight... and that's it.

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Thing is, that's exactly what Hera says to do.

I think it requires a much more fiddly, "doing what it doesn't say" interpretation to say that Hera ignores part of the rule (that she isn't changed to a white 2-forward), but not all of the rule (cannot use other game effects), without any guide from the FAQ or the card text as to why she should only ignore part of the rule. Ignoring the entire rule is the  much simpler interpretation, and I think it's far truer to the text.

To me, the fact that Hera explicitly says "you may reveal and execute red maneuvers " and fact that the relevant rule in the FAQ is specifically titled " Revealing Red Maneuvers " should have a great deal of weight here. If Hera only said "you may execute" or if the rule in the FAQ was called something else, I think the "Hera's ship cannot Pivot Wing flip" or any similar Hera arguments would have more behind it. But the card text and the rule title are exactly what they are.  

Again... if the FAQ restricts, and a card does not grant a specific exception to that restriction, the FAQ restriction holds. Hera allows you reveal the red maneuver, but again, so can anybody now. It's not illegal anymore. Her wording comes from a time when such a reveal WOULD be considered illegal. It is an artifact of an earlier time in the game. Per current rules, those words now hold as much weight as "immediately." The relevant part of Hera's card states that she may execute red maneuvers while stressed... which nobody is arguing she can't. But the FAQ prevents Pivot Wing from activating in these circumstances, and nothing on Hera can intervene the FAQ's effect, on behalf of Pivot Wing.

Please don't get me wrong - I think that the spirit of the card SHOULD allow this. But as it's written, and as I analyze the interactions, I come up with the same answer every time: Hera can stop while stressed, but not flip with Pivot Wing.

1 hour ago, emeraldbeacon said:

First off, the FAQ rule change (prohibiting non-move-change card effects) was included, specifically to prohibit U-Wing shenanigans. Some players found that they could dial in a red stop while stressed, rotate with the Pivot Wing, then execute the required two-straight maneuver, turning it into (effectively) a white reverse-2 k-turn . Which, of course, is ludicrous, but permitted as the rules were written. With the FAQ change to "only card effects that change maneuver," the use of Pivot Wing on a red maneuver was stopped cold.

I'd note that even if Hera can flip, she couldn't white reverse 2 k-turn, IMHO. Per the Dash pilot ability ruling where you either ignore obstacles or you don't, either you use Hera or you don't. If you use Hera, you'd be able to flip, then you'd stall. If you didn't use Hera, you wouldn't be able to flip before the 2-forward.

1 hour ago, emeraldbeacon said:

The inclusion of "you may reveal" on Hera is an artifact of a previous wave, where revealing a red maneuver while stressed was considered to be an "illegal dial" setting. As it stands now, every ship in the game is now permitted to reveal a red maneuver while stressed. As such, the focus on the first part of Hera's card, "you may reveal," is a moot point. ANYBODY can do that. What they can't do is EXECUTE the red maneuver... and that's what Hera permits. That's what her card does.

It's not moot, because the text is still on the card. They could have errata'd Hera, they didn't. You're trying to make a historical argument which isn't represented in the rules as written or the text on the cards. I understand the fact that the rules regarding revealing red maneuvers changed. However, Hera didn't change, and I see no reason to presume that Hera wasn't meant to ignore the new version of the rule, same as she ignored the previous version. Again, the rule in the FAQ isn't called "Executing Red Maneuvers" but "Revealing Red Maneuvers." For example, Dash's ability to ignore obstacles didn't change when they updated the obstacle rules to cover what happens with things like Tractor Beam and other times a ship is re-positioned without executing a maneuver. The fact that the base rules change under a card doesn't necessarily mean that the old text on cards is now moot.

2 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Per current rules, those words now hold as much weight as "immediately." The relevant part of Hera's card states that she may execute red maneuvers while stressed... which nobody is arguing she can't. But the FAQ prevents Pivot Wing from activating in these circumstances, and nothing on Hera can intervene the FAQ's effect, on behalf of Pivot Wing.

I think that's a huge leap. "Immediately" was specifically called out in a way "reveal" wasn't. If the new rule was called something different, I wouldn't be making my argument that Hera's ability still stands. But the new rule has the same title as the old rule. It's not so much a separate rule, rather the same rule working in a different way.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

It's not moot, because the text is still on the card. They could have errata'd Hera, they didn't. You're trying to make a historical argument which isn't represented in the rules as written or the text on the cards. I understand the fact that the rules regarding revealing red maneuvers changed. However, Hera didn't change, and I see no reason to presume that Hera wasn't meant to ignore the new version of the rule, same as she ignored the previous version. Again, the rule in the FAQ isn't called "Executing Red Maneuvers" but  "Revealing Red Maneuvers." For example, Dash's ability to ignore obstacles didn't change when they updated the obstacle rules to cover what happens with things like Tractor Beam and other times a ship is re-positioned without executing a maneuver. The fact that the base rules change under a card doesn't necessarily mean that the old text on cards is now moot.

But that's just the thing. Until the "may only resolve card effects that change the maneuver" rule, there was no previous rule about what card effects you could or could not resolve. This was a new rule put into play, after some players found a way to abuse the rules for Pivot Wing (via the aforementioned white reverse-2 k-turn). That ruling explicitly made it impossible to resolve Pivot Wing if you revealed a red maneuver while stressed (sans Hera). I don't think anyone would argue that, if Hera is not part of the equation, a U-Wing can't flip while stressed.

The key is to define what the extent of Hera's abilities are. Does she negate the entirety of the FAQ section "Revealing Red Maneuvers," or only the part about executing red maneuvers, within that section? And that is an question we don't have a definitive answer to... only speculation and logical reasoning. I can see both sides of the argument - I just happen to think that, as spelled out, the FAQ still takes precedence.

For what it's worth it appears you can do the stop if stressed with Hera (she overrides rulings regarding reds) then rotate your ship but there's no way you can do a stop & rotate for multiple turns in a row since Pivot Wing flips. You can stop/rotate & flip THEN stop & flip THEN stop/rotate & flip again.

This won't matter in about 2 months anyway though so I guess it's up to TOs or come to an agreement before playing the combo. There are civil solutions. ?

Edit: Pivot Wing is a may flip. Now we have a problem! xD

Pivot wing flipping is optional...

First: with Hera you can reveal and execute. You have no option here. If you are capable of reveal and execute a maneuver and you select it in your dial, you must execute the maneuver. No way to do half things, no "may clause" in Hera card. So i don't understand the "2k white move".

Second: if you apply "Revealing Red Maneuvers" you cannot use Hera effect (as long that does not change the maneuver to a different one)

FFG must write better rules.

Revealing Red Maneuvers
When a player reveals a red maneuver for a stressed ship, the only card
effects he may resolve are those that change the maneuver to a different
one (Adrenaline Rush, Navigator, etc.). After resolving these effects, if the
ship would still be executing a red maneuver, the owner moves the ship as
if it were assigned a white [? 2] maneuver instead. The speed, bearing, and
difficulty of this maneuver cannot be changed.

NOTE: Adding fuel to the fire ? ? .

If Hera's rule were written like this:
"ignore the stressed condition when you reveal and execute maneuvers" ...

35 minutes ago, Arachneo said:

First: with Hera you can reveal and execute. You have no option here. If you are capable of reveal and execute a maneuver and you select it in your dial, you must execute the maneuver. No way to do half things, no "may clause" in Hera card. So i don't understand the "2k white move".

Second: if you apply "Revealing Red Maneuvers" you cannot use Hera effect (as long that does not change the maneuver to a different one)

FFG must write better rules.

Revealing Red Maneuvers
When a player reveals a red maneuver for a stressed ship, the only card
effects he may resolve are those that change the maneuver to a different
one (Adrenaline Rush, Navigator, etc.). After resolving these effects, if the
ship would still be executing a red maneuver, the owner moves the ship as
if it were assigned a white [? 2] maneuver instead. The speed, bearing, and
difficulty of this maneuver cannot be changed.

NOTE: Adding fuel to the fire ? ? .

If Hera's rule were written like this:
"ignore the stressed condition when you reveal and execute maneuvers" ...

Alternately, if the Revealing Red Maneuvers read "When a player reveals a red maneuver for a stressed ship and cannot execute maneuvers while stressed , etc..." That would have been a handy bit of future proofing, since anything applicable to Hera is applicable to Contraband Cybernetics--itself a mess because it is the only card or text in the game, I believe, which references "performing a red maneuver." Every other use of maneuver is execute, and never perform. Le Sigh.

Could we maybe get @OfficialRules to chime in on this, perhaps? Just to settle the debate?

On 6/24/2018 at 2:25 PM, Innese said:

Revealing Red Maneuvers

When a player reveals a red maneuver for a stressed ship, the only card effects he may resolve are those that change the maneuver to a different one (Adrenaline Rush, Navigator, etc.).  After resolving these effects, if the ship would still be executing a red maneuver, the owner moves the ship as if it were assigned a white [2-straight] maneuver instead. The speed, bearing, and difficulty of this maneuver cannot be changed. (Emphasis mine).

If this rule is to set in stone as some say (i.e. no exceptions), then you could NEVER use Hera's ability.

In order for Hera to be playable, she bypasses the "Revealing Red Maneuvers" and allows the player to reveal and execute red maneuvers. Ergo, she can keep revealing a Red Stop over and over and this use the pivot wing to rotate the ship. She would have stress tokens for days but could do the 180 turn.

On 6/24/2018 at 6:42 PM, emeraldbeacon said:

There are three things at play here: The rules for Hera, for the Pivot Wing title, and for revealing a red maneuver when stressed...

Assuming all the previous things are in place (stressed, wings closed, Hera equipped), and you reveal a full stop, the first thing that you look at is the U-Wing title. When you REVEAL the stop maneuver, you may rotate your ship. However, the FAQ states that the only card effects you may resolve are those that change either the maneuver or its difficulty. For that reason, you cannot activate Pivot Wing's first effect. Hera, though, allows the full stop to happen, as she supersedes the second part of the FAQ entry that would force the 2-straight maneuver. After executing the full-stop, you can activate the second part of the title card, because the maneuver would then be complete, and the FAQ restrictions would no longer apply.

SHORT VERSION: No, you can't flip around with Hera + Pivot Wing while stressed.

I'm with others that Hera does allow the Pivot Wing 180 while stressed. The "when" trigger on Pivot Wing is not prevented because Hera does not make the reveal an un-permitted game state. Hera allows the ship to meet the "when you reveal a (stop) maneuver" trigger on Pivot Wing.

The judge was wrong of course, Hera allows the 180° while stressed.
There have been a number of bad judgecalls lately ...

22 minutes ago, Nehekharan said:

The judge was wrong of course, Hera allows the 180° while stressed.
There have been a number of bad judgecalls lately ...

Welcome to store championship season... Even my local store championship is being run by a guy who tries to bring an epic ship to each seasonal kit tournament.

Definitely gonna go against that Judge. Definitely. The Pivot Wing title mentions NOTHING about your condition of stress. Sure, generally, you couldn't do the stop if you were stressed, but Hera circumvents normal red move limits. Flying an eternal flip U is pretty standard form.

But I agree, it'd be nice for @OfficialRules to help, because I can understand the other side.

2 hours ago, Nehekharan said:

The judge was wrong of course, Hera allows the 180° while stressed.
There have been a number of bad judgecalls lately ...

Absent an official ruling, the judge was not WRONG. He interpreted the rules a certain way, that is not entirely unreasonable (saying that the FAQ invalidated Hera entirely would be, IMHO, unreasonable). The fact that the debate still continues means that the answer is not clear-cut and obvious, regardless of how one person sees it. I've heard sound, reasonable arguments on both sides of the debate.

I do really hope that @OfficialRules chimes in on this discussion soon!

I can understand the confusion but it seems pretty clear cut to me. FAQ says that if you reveal a red maneuver while stressed, unless you can somehow change the maneuver to a non-red, you perform a white 2 straight. Period. If you read it verbatim and try to apply the rule, Hera simply doesn't work. Not just in case of U-wing. She doesn't work at all, because A) you're stressed and B) you revealed a red maneuver, therefore C) you perform a white 2 straight. There's no part of that section of the FAQ that is in any way compatible with the text on Hera's card. No "you cannot execute red maneuvers while stressed therefore you must perform a white 2 straight" which could then be superseded by Hera's "you may execute red maneuvers while stressed". The FAQ doesn't say anything about whether or not you may execute red maneuvers while stressed, only what happens when you reveal one and there's literally no place where you could point at the text and say "Aha! That's the part of the rule that Hera allows you to ignore!"

Since we all seem to agree that Hera in fact does work, the only logical conclusion is that the rules concerning revealing red maneuvers while stressed simply do not apply to a ship that has her on board. If you choose to apply any part of that rule you cannot ignore other parts of it because, again, there's absolutely nothing on Hera's card that would allow you to ignore a single word there. Only by dismissing the entirety of it can you escape the case where Hera simply doesn't work at all in any situation.