20 minutes ago, DrakonLord said:

Ill share an experience.

But i wont argue, let them have their fun complaining about its uselessness. Tell them how you run it if asked and the enjoy their sgocked expressions when you beat them with it

The best part about this experience, the part that allows me to ignore the naysayers?

Our fleets flew straight at each other, and even better i had 3 IMP stars go through my quasar on my flank, yet i won and had 2 Vics ESCAPE.

(I destroyed just over 300pts of stuff, he killed just below 300)

It doesn't mean much if you're running ships without upgrades... outside of a format that isn't standard in tournaments.

300 point (and even 250-200 in Taskforce) formats show VSDs to be a lot more valueble. You save enough in points for more ships and/or upgrades to make your shots matter over an ISD that either gets out-activated or can't afford to arm itself into a one-shot monster. The tighter points means you can't just casually buy everything you need to eliminate mediums in a few turns- that older point scale is much more tight, and VSDs pull off being effective there much better than 400. At 200 they can tool up with some upgrades where heavies have to go bear- and it makes a difference.

A VSD's chances improve when your opponent isn't taking XI7s, and that may happen more often than I'm giving the game's worldwide meta credit for. Still, if I were to make a guess at what the popular upgrades are for tournament play and big batteries are, XI7s is high on the list. Ie, I can expect to face them often, so I should kit and strategize VSDs with that in mind.

43 minutes ago, ISD Avenger said:

I ran 2 VSD IIs & a VSD 1 with Thrawn & it did ok. No Tua.

It suffered from fighter attacks & does not correct from manoeuvre errors well but I was reasonably happy with how it went. Lost the game by a single damage point.

Im sure a skilled player could run it even better.

What was your opponent bringing? Who was first/second? What were the objectives?

Going second in contested outpost is a lot different than going first in Most Wanted.

If I'm going to be convinced VSDs aren't really in a bad spot, I'd like to see some in-depth battle reports to find out how and why they worked well.

7 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

It doesn't mean much if you're running ships without upgrades... outside of a format that isn't standard in tournaments.

All the ships (at least on my side) had upgrades.

The VSDs were kitted out pretty much as standard, Dcaps and gunnery teams. I think a couple may of had HIEs it was a while ago now.

The IMP stars were mostly bare from what i remember, maybe 20/30pts of upgrades between them.

As for X17s, well i think you need to play rebels more.

Like a lot more.

Suddenly the 8 hull of a Vic is awesome and the ISDs hull is godly. Add motti and youve transcended.

(Thats how i was when i tried imps after playing rebels for so long, suddenly i had hull)

Yes X17s are a threat, so deal with it, and with multiple, cheaper than an ISD, VICs to "deal with it" it becomes easier.

Even better lets take a look, my standard vic is roughly 100pts (Dcaps, gunnery and HIE is 104), my standard imp is 140+, often 160-180 with admiral but lets say 140+

So taking that i can roughly bring a Vic and a raider against a ISD. If i move HIE to a raider and have that do a run before engaging with my Vic, ive got a good chance to beat it and often times i do.

Now lets imagine a whole fleet. 400pts.

Take away 100 for sqds, now its 300 for ships.

Take away 30 for an admiral, 270.

So around 270 is my magic number for guessing how many points for ships ill face. Sometimes its higher (no sqd fleets) sometimes its lower (bomber fleets with transports).

I can fit 2 standard upgrade Imps in that, or i can shuffle around a couple upgraded (example remove HIEs) and fit 3 Dcap gunnery VSDs. And at that point id rather the Vics with the extra activation.

46 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Going second in contested outpost is a lot different than going first in Most Wanted.

Why you chose Most Wanted in the first place??

@Norsehound VSDs aren't too terrible, XI-7s is just kinda an auto include on large dice batteries to maximize their threat. And wave 7 brought large ships into the fold again in a big way.

7 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

In a one-to-one fight it will lose almost every engagement against any kind of dedicated combat or carrier platform.

What? Vics have 10 shields and 8 hull. If you are spending an equal amount of points on both sides, the Vic will hands down win every battle with both sides in their optimal attacking position. Vics destroy Yavaris simply by being bigger. If you're considering an MC80 or ISD pushing 6 squads against a solo Vic, yea, it's gunna die.

For it's cost, the Vic is the best ship to absorb squadron attacks because it has high hull and shields, and 2 Redirects.

I'll also mention that I've crushed many carrier fleets with no squads and a Vic II, and I've seen other people do it as well. You're just playing it wrong.

7 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

Every time I hear the phrase "don't charge into ther bomber cloud" in regards to Rieekan Aces, I'm forced to wonder how that's possible without immediately turning away and fleeing the battle especially if the goal is to snipe at long range. Protip: If you're in shooting range of a Rieekan Aces fleet, you're already well inside their squadron threat range

So turn and flee the battle. Bid harder to play your objectives. OF COURSE YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE SHIPS IF YOU CHARGE INTO DOUBLE TAPPED B WINGS WITH NO FIGHTER COVERAGE!!!!

I don’t like it much either, I think they can put out too much damage in a single round when coupled with yavaris, but that’s the game we play. So don’t play INTO your opponents plans and feed ships into the meat grinder. If that matchup happens in a tournament the best call is probably to avoid engagement for as long as possible- FCT is no longer an auto include since the nerf so bwings are often slow again. If that matchup happens in casual games you have several options

1) run away

2) ask your friend to switch up fleets- I’ve noticed that particularly Rieekan aces players play exclusively that archetype, win at all costs style. But here’s the thing- this is a game for TWO peoples enjoyment, not just one dude that wants to eat vsds every game

3) Play with other people whose goals are the same as yours-having fun pushing around plastic spaceships

4) Don’t play the VSD

5) Play the VSD better

Ok, let me explain why I came to the conclusion that the Vic needed fixing. Where I live there is no shop playing armada in a 100km radius so I am stuck playing with my friends. We are a group of 4 with 2 imp and 2 rebel player. As you can guess I am playing imp, leaving only one other imp payer and two more rebel players. So I am playing way more games against rebels than imps. Make of that what you will.

The rebels always play a variation on one of these three build:

MSU: Well, against rebel MSU builds it is just strait up impossible to get them in blue range in your front arc let alone in black range for the Vic 1. They will always out flank you. So the Vic is pretty useless here.

Raddus: They will have one ore two small maneuverable ships that will once again not get in your front arc. They block the Vic and deploy the MC75 in it's rear. And the Vic just dies from a single MC75 activation. Even with full health and shields and Tua ECM. Just like that the Vic is instantly dead without having thrown more than a couple of dice the hole game.

Ackbar: They just have some space pickles and space potatoes that do not need to fly in the same direction as they shot so they can keep me at long distance the entire game (because I only have max speed 2) where they vastly outgun me and once again the Vic is pretty useless here.

Granted, against an imp player that is also interested in flying towards you the Vic is a good ship. But at least for me that is a very rare situation and in pretty much all other situations that I face I found the Vic to be way too slow and cumbersome.

Now I am not claiming to be an amazing veteran player. I only got into the game this January so maybe someone can explain to me how a Vic could work in those situations.

I think the Vic is a really cool ship and I want to make it work but so far I did not have a lot of luck with that.

STOP CHASING PEOPLE WITH SPEED 2 SHIPS IT WILL ONLY MAKE YOU SAD

Yeah but how? When I am forced into being first player I often have no choice other than to engage into the enemy and as second player I have a hard time finding a navigation objective where I can force my enemy to engage into me.

And does that mean the Vic just can't be played as fist player? Because that would sound like a broken ship.

16 minutes ago, LordCola said:

Ok, let me explain why I came to the conclusion that the Vic needed fixing. Where I live there is no shop playing armada in a 100km radius so I am stuck playing with my friends. We are a group of 4 with 2 imp and 2 rebel player. As you can guess I am playing imp, leaving only one other imp payer and two more rebel players. So I am playing way more games against rebels than imps. Make of that what you will.

The rebels always play a variation on one of these three build:

MSU: Well, against rebel MSU builds it is just strait up impossible to get them in blue range in your front arc let alone in black range for the Vic 1. They will always out flank you. So the Vic is pretty useless here.

Raddus: They will have one ore two small maneuverable ships that will once again not get in your front arc. They block the Vic and deploy the MC75 in it's rear. And the Vic just dies from a single MC75 activation. Even with full health and shields and Tua ECM. Just like that the Vic is instantly dead without having thrown more than a couple of dice the hole game.

Ackbar: They just have some space pickles and space potatoes that do not need to fly in the same direction as they shot so they can keep me at long distance the entire game (because I only have max speed 2) where they vastly outgun me and once again the Vic is pretty useless here.

Granted, against an imp player that is also interested in flying towards you the Vic is a good ship. But at least for me that is a very rare situation and in pretty much all other situations that I face I found the Vic to be way too slow and cumbersome.

Now I am not claiming to be an amazing veteran player. I only got into the game this January so maybe someone can explain to me how a Vic could work in those situations.

I think the Vic is a really cool ship and I want to make it work but so far I did not have a lot of luck with that.

You need to start running Disposable Capacitors and stop playing Vic I. Once you understand how to fly a Vic II, you remove the long range crutch and try to catch your opponent by being in front of them. Start playing Raiders or non-Demo Glads to understand how to fly close range ships and apply that to the Vic I.

Personally, I think you should never take a Vic I. A Glad has more black dice and is faster/more maneuverable for 20ish less points.

Just now, Undeadguy said:

You need to start running Disposable Capacitors and stop playing Vic I. Once you understand how to fly a Vic II, you remove the long range crutch and try to catch your opponent by being in front of them. Start playing Raiders or non-Demo Glads to understand how to fly close range ships and apply that to the Vic I.

Personally, I think you should never take a Vic I. A Glad has more black dice and is faster/more maneuverable for 20ish less points.

I agree for the most part, but a Glad can’t take QBT so when you are making a grind down fleet vic1 is better

6 minutes ago, LordCola said:

Yeah but how? When I am forced into being first player I often have no choice other than to engage into the enemy and as second player I have a hard time finding a navigation objective where I can force my enemy to engage into me.

And does that mean the Vic just can't be played as fist player? Because that would sound like a broken ship.

Station assault, contested post, salvage run

3 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

Station assault, contested post, salvage run

Hyperspace Assault is also a great option because it counters joust fleets.

I think the old triple VSD1 carrier-mode is still viable. Yes, the quasar is better from a squadron activation standpoint but Ackbar's ship will destroy it easily and it is also vulnerable against little shots from TRC90s. Use a good squadron wing to chase the most slippery ships. Superior Positions is good for your squadrons and also solve the risk of being outdeployed (as your squadron will help with too).

I guess this kind of fleet could work against the three archetypes you said you're facing.

54 minutes ago, LordCola said:

MSU: Well, against rebel MSU builds it is just strait up impossible to get them in blue range in your front arc let alone in black range for the Vic 1. They will always out flank you. So the Vic is pretty useless here.

Pryce, bring more activations, don't fly everything forward as fast as you can hoping to chase them down because they're faster than you are, put DCaps on your VSD-II. Bring accuracy generation like H9s or Jonus or something.

Quote

Raddus: They will have one ore two small maneuverable ships that will once again not get in your front arc. They block the Vic and deploy the MC75 in it's rear. And the Vic just dies from a single MC75 activation. Even with full health and shields and Tua ECM. Just like that the Vic is instantly dead without having thrown more than a couple of dice the hole game.

See above. Don't run at Raddus hoping to catch him because generally he's going to drop his ship off before he dies, so he's worth it. Raddus will exploit your mistakes given the opportunity.

Quote

Ackbar: They just have some space pickles and space potatoes that do not need to fly in the same direction as they shot so they can keep me at long distance the entire game (because I only have max speed 2) where they vastly outgun me and once again the Vic is pretty useless here.

Don't drive at where Ackbar is but at where he's going to be. Herd him into an area, beat up on that area.

In general, navigate more with your Vic's than you'd think, and deploy them as late as possible. If you put your Vic down first I can react to that knowledge and it's speed to counter it.

I always thought that Salvage Run would be bad for me because my enemy could get to the tokens much quicker then I could with my speed 2 Vics. I guess I will give it a try next time.

Speed 2 is all you need to get the tokens. And even if you don't, it still forces them into your arcs.

1 minute ago, LordCola said:

I always thought that Salvage Run would be bad for me because my enemy could get to the tokens much quicker then I could with my speed 2 Vics. I guess I will give it a try next time.

Check the distances.

2 minutes ago, LordCola said:

I always thought that Salvage Run would be bad for me because my enemy could get to the tokens much quicker then I could with my speed 2 Vics. I guess I will give it a try next time.

You have to place the tokens to see why thats not quite true. We all thought the same when we tead the card.

https://archiveofossus.wordpress.com/2017/04/22/objectively-the-best-salvage-run/

17 hours ago, Norsehound said:

D-caps is the closest, but with Tua being so much of a mandatory upgrade just to make the ship workable, you aren't allowed any flexibility

I can't speak with much authority on the thread topic at large, as I don't play VSDs all that often, but this "but mandatory upgrades!" point as a supporting point for your ship being underpowered is kinda specious.

Demo is stapled to the GSD.

The MC30 is an almost entirely cookie cutter build unless you're going out of your way to switch it up.

Same with the MC80--it has a pretty well-defined set of upgrades that are defined by how much you want to spend on it and what role you want it in.

How often do you see *any* black-dice ship without OE? Or CR90A's without TRC?

14 hours ago, Norsehound said:

Needa's useability decreases the more relevant the battery becomes. ISDs don't have to make this sacrifice. 

This is true of every ship with an evade. The GSD and MC30 both have this problem way worse than the VSD does.

The ISD comparison is a false equivalency: ISDs don't have to make this sacrifice because they cost half-again more than VSDs do.

50 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I can't speak with much authority on the thread topic at large, as I don't play VSDs all that often, but this "but mandatory upgrades!" point as a supporting point for your ship being underpowered is kinda specious.

Demo is stapled to the GSD.

The MC30 is an almost entirely cookie cutter build unless you're going out of your way to switch it up.

Same with the MC80--it has a pretty well-defined set of upgrades that are defined by how much you want to spend on it and what role you want it in.

How often do you see *any* black-dice ship without OE? Or CR90A's without TRC?

Id go so far as to say that every wave 1 and 2 ship has a "standard build" to it for most admirals and choices (that phrasing lets me duck someone who points out the weird Sato build I forgot about). Most of the flotilla builds are in that spot now as well, and there's a few standard Interdictor and Lib builds, but I feel wave 4 is right where things start to get malleable.

There's some fairly settled HH and Quasar builds, along with 7ISDs and MC75s, but I don't think they're fully settled either. And of course, people winning with unsettled builds (points at Nathan's squad component this year, ignores the ships for this argument) in some fashion.

So I guess the question we really should be asking is if it's worth exploring any alternative builds in some fashion. How much of it is trying something new because of the potential (CR90B with HIE) vs how much just being contrarian and probably wasting your time (CR90A with H9s). That's how I'd be viewing the VSD upgrade suite.

How many Vics have been in top 8 fleet lists from any Store Championship, Regional or Nationals in the last year? Honest question, I do not have the data on that.

Also, look at @Captain Weather's awesome overnight report from Worlds, and Kristjan Jurimae's list (sorry Kristjan don't know your name on the forum), came in 5th on day 1a with a Vic 1, so it obviously worked pretty well there.

https://intelsweep.wordpress.com/2018/05/03/overnight-report-worlds-day-1a/

Personally, I don't fly them often, but my brother did really well when he recently started with 2 Vics (I think there was a 1 and a 2, but might have been 2 2s) and D-Caps. I love the power of an ISD, but pay the points for it. With D-Caps I've really had to look at them again, and it basically was put out there as a 'fix' for them, especially as it released with the Quasar that did take it's old role of pocket carrier away. It can suck that there are only some builds, but that's what most of the ships are, you can do what you want, but when talk about the really competitive meta, that there are some things that really MUST go on them. (not going to cover this in detail again, as it already has been)

From seeing them run a bunch I think (and this is thoughts and not play exp, so may be wrong), that as people have said, keep them cheap, keep them playing certain objectives (either because they're playing yous, or trying to pick the best of theirs), and let the enemy come to you. Even more so, but still similar to the ISDs that I do fly, if the enemy is going to run rings around you, deploy more in the corner, forcing them to either run against the board, or come across to meet you. If they split, concentrate on one group and take the hits from the other.

Amusingly its @Kristjan

8 minutes ago, JauntyChapeau said:

How many Vics have been in top 8 fleet lists from any Store Championship, Regional or Nationals in the last year? Honest question, I do not have the data on that.

For last regionals season through March 9*, there were 316 imperial lists, 82 vsds overall, and 19 in the top 8. 8 top 4, and 0 winners.

Top 8 is roughly top half, and top 4 is roughly top quarter, so if vsds were fully competitive, we should see about 40 in the top 8, about 20 in the top 4, and 5 in winning fleets.

However, the VSD is not alone in underperforming. Looking at wave 7 regionals only, because that's what I have in front of me, the only imperial ships that are performing as expected are Demo, ISDs and Gozantis. Arqs, vsds, and interdictors are drastically underperforming.

Rebel side, ships that are comparably underperforming are: CR90s, Hammers, generic mc30s, and Libertys. AFM's are a little better, but not at standard.

* Sorry, don't have data after 3/9/18 at work.