8 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

VSDs aren't too terrible, XI-7s is just kinda an auto include on large dice batteries to maximize their threat. And wave 7 brought large ships into the fold again in a big way.

I can believe this. VSDs are good at crushing lighter ships the rebellion favors, it's feeling powerless against heavies that keeps my negative opinions on the ship valid.

10 hours ago, DrakonLord said:

Suddenly the 8 hull of a Vic is awesome and the ISDs hull is godly. Add motti and youve transcended.

Yet for what I drop in a VSD, rebels can get a couple of hammerheads with E-Racks. Where you see godly strength, I see one vulnerable, expensive target. The way I see it, the universe favors high activation/attrition lists or big batteries. Even if I have my VSD on my side of the board? you'll either out-activate me with rebels' cheaper ships or Drop Yavaris with a B-Wing cloud or A Raddus 75 right in my front and annihilate me. If it's not rebels, it's (as I've been harping) an XI7 big battery ship from the Empire.

I don't feel godly when my first Motti VSD crumbles within one turn of defending from an Ackbar gunline. I feel that, if this strength isn't enough, I need to either go wide with disposable ships or go stronger with the more fantastic, well rounded ISDs. The VSD gets left behind.

4 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

You need to start running Disposable Capacitors and stop playing Vic I. Once you understand how to fly a Vic II, you remove the long range crutch and try to catch your opponent by being in front of them. Start playing Raiders or non-Demo Glads to understand how to fly close range ships and apply that to the Vic I. 

Personally, I think you should never take a Vic I. A Glad has more black dice and is faster/more maneuverable for 20ish less points.

@LordCola, I will caution you that Raiders can be tricky to fly given their unusual attack-defensive profile. I can see them as being disposable ships, as long as you get your points' back from committing them.

Glads are much more flexible between the two, and their defensive options aren't as unusual. These ships are also faster and more maneuverable than the VSD-I, but I think Undeadguy has a good point that it'll teach you the close range black dice mentality.

1 hour ago, Ardaedhel said:

I can't speak with much authority on the thread topic at large, as I don't play VSDs all that often, but this "but mandatory upgrades!" point as a supporting point for your ship being underpowered is kinda specious. 

Well at the end of all this, if an upgrade did exist, it would be as mandatory as the other upgrades you describe. Right now I feel it doesn't have that... except I suppose D-Caps with Tua. Is this the only VSD to run? Maybe so, just as Demo is the only Gladiator to run.

Is that right, though?

The only reason I'm not strumming the complaint harp on the Assault Frigate A and the Nebulon Support is because I'm more of an imperial player- but these ships need help too. So do non-Demo Gladiators. I'm particular about the VSD because it's my favorite star destroyer and I want to stop feeling powerless to do anything in certain situations.

53 minutes ago, geek19 said:

So I guess the question we really should be asking is if it's worth exploring any alternative builds in some fashion. How much of it is trying something new because of the potential (CR90B with HIE) vs how much just being contrarian and probably wasting your time (CR90A with H9s). That's how I'd be viewing the VSD upgrade suite.

The way I see it, the VSDs standard build to handle all comers is something like:

VSD-II // Tua / ECM / D-Caps / (Insert ion here- SW-7s, Leading shots) / QBTs

This is as close as you'll get to something like Demolisher being useful anywhere. You're still limited to only one of them, just like Demolisher. It'll give you six dice at long range for your first shot... but is this ~107 point ship as good as an 83 point fully kitted Demolisher?

There is no other configuration (in my experience) you can take with a straight face... unless you're doing something specific like Kristjan at Worlds. His VSD-I is a response to Raddus and may not work against long-range snipe lists or high-fighter activations (if they do, I'd like to review the reports on how it succeeded!)

13 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Id go so far as to say that every wave 1 and 2 ship has a "standard build" to it for most admirals and choices (that phrasing lets me duck someone who points out the weird Sato build I forgot about). Most of the flotilla builds are in that spot now as well, and there's a few standard Interdictor and Lib builds, but I feel wave 4 is right where things start to get malleable.

There's some fairly settled HH and Quasar builds, along with 7ISDs and MC75s, but I don't think they're fully settled either. And of course, people winning with unsettled builds (points at Nathan's squad component this year, ignores the ships for this argument) in some fashion.

So I guess the question we really should be asking is if it's worth exploring any alternative builds in some fashion. How much of it is trying something new because of the potential (CR90B with HIE) vs how much just being contrarian and probably wasting your time (CR90A with H9s). That's how I'd be viewing the VSD upgrade suite.

There's not a whole lot you can do with either Vic to make it on par with the standard build. I tired. Most builds relied on jankiness and objectives, so they were unreliable. Others die to quickly, and others struggle with getting in position. JJ on a Vic II with Tua/ECM/LS/DC/GT/QBS is near perfection.

1 minute ago, Baltanok said:

For last regionals season through March 9*, there were 316 imperial lists, 82 vsds overall, and 19 in the top 8. 8 top 4, and 0 winners.

Top 8 is roughly top half, and top 4 is roughly top quarter, so if vsds were fully competitive, we should see about 40 in the top 8, about 20 in the top 4, and 5 in winning fleets.

However, the VSD is not alone in underperforming. Looking at wave 7 regionals only, because that's what I have in front of me, the only imperial ships that are performing as expected are Demo, ISDs and Gozantis. Arqs, vsds, and interdictors are drastically underperforming.

Rebel side, ships that are comparably underperforming are: CR90s, Hammers, generic mc30s, and Libertys. AFM's are a little better, but not at standard.

* Sorry, don't have data after 3/9/18 at work.

For what it's worth, I did win a SC last July with a squadronless Vic fleet. We just stopped reporting to the forums because the community died.

11 minutes ago, Crewgar said:

From seeing them run a bunch I think (and this is thoughts and not play exp, so may be wrong), that as people have said, keep them cheap, keep them playing certain objectives (either because they're playing yous, or trying to pick the best of theirs), and let the enemy come to you. Even more so, but still similar to the ISDs that I do fly, if the enemy is going to run rings around you, deploy more in the corner, forcing them to either run against the board, or come across to meet you. If they split, concentrate on one group and take the hits from the other.

I've got a wall of victory list queued up that I want to try- three VSD-Is with E-Racks and XI7s, OEs, and 7th fleet, with Brusen and Needa on the flanking ones. Motti's in the backseat of the Tua one. They're all pushing 4x TIE Advanceds with Jonus and Dengar. One of the x1s is Zetrick

The thought is to deploy wide on the board edge, close, and pummel whatever ships we encounter to death with Jonus giving the accuracy and XI7s funneling damage. If I need a bid, I'd drop Brunsen and Needa for Skilled first officers and revert Zetrick.

I expect my opponent to focus on one of them to start with (probably needa) then outrun the other two by flying through the gap. If I'm up against a second player with two ISDs and a ton of fighters.... I don't know what I would do. It's that kind of matchup that I don't know how to prepare for except to take a bigger bid by finding things to cut. But if that's the case, what kind of bid should I **always** plan for if I want to make all comers VSD lists?

You try garbage Fleet yet? I know @Ardaedhel gave it a shot and had fun

This one?

Quote

Garbage Fleet(400/400)
Empire

Commander: Darth Vader

[flagship] Imperial Star Destroyer Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
- Darth Vader (36)
- Seventh Fleet Star Destroyer (5)
- Strategic Adviser (4)
- Quad Battery Turrets (5)
= 162 total points

Victory II-class Star Destroyer (85)
- Seventh Fleet Star Destroyer (5)
- Disposable Capacitors (3)
- Skilled First Officer (1)
- Quad Battery Turrets (5)
= 99 total points

Victory I-class Star Destroyer (73)
- Seventh Fleet Star Destroyer (5)
- Skilled First Officer (1)
- External Racks (3)
- Quad Battery Turrets (5)
= 87 total points

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23)
- Comms Net (2)
- Hondo Ohnaka (2)
= 27 total points

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23)
- Comms Net (2)
= 25 total points

2x VSD 1x ISD is my dream archetype shot down hard by the reality of an ackbar gunline back in wave 3, so I'd like to know if there's a valid archetype for it. I don't see anything to respond to squadrons however, and one of my first questions when running a list is, "Yeah, what do I do about Yavaris?" I feel a bit nervous fielding this fleet without some kind of response to that. What I see here is trying to kill Yavaris as soon as possible, and maybe out-activating it. There's about three activation at least before the Rebels are forced to commit something they don't want to... would that be enough? Deployment has the opposite problem= I think this list is going to decide where it is before a Rebel fighter swarm will.

Activations really help, as does keeping everything in formation. Picking the right objective (if given first) is key too. Sometimes most wanted IS the right choice- remember the dice bonus only goes to ships, which are usually anemic carriers. It doesn’t force engagement like CO/SR so you can delay engagement without ceding points. 3 tappable seventh Fleet titles make damage go poof. With engineering to shunt shields forward they usually chew down 1 vsd by the time they get tabled. Don’t be afraid to pop dcaps to snipe a flotilla that wanders into range (bonus points if it’s adar/Toryn)

41 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

For what it's worth, I did win a SC last July with a squadronless Vic fleet.

I do have wave 6 store champ data. Nearly all ships were competitive at that level. Winning exceptions being Demos, m80Hs, and Yavaris. Losing exceptions were Hammers, M30s, Peltas, and quasars. VSDs were top4 competitive, but not winning. Interdictors were balanced, but won more than expected.

I played Garbo Fleet a couple weeks ago against a Sloane ISD/QF/Gz list and it was awesome. Tabled him for a 10-1. The VSD1 never fired a shot and made me 120 points by camping on the outpost.

8 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

I don't see anything to respond to squadrons

You might be surprised what Seventh Fleet and a buttload of hull will do for you against squadrons.

*note I'm not saying this one game shows it's top-tier or something, just an observation

47 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

You try garbage Fleet yet? I know @Ardaedhel gave it a shot and had fun

Have you considered trying a more marketable name?

18 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I played Garbo Fleet a couple weeks ago against a Sloane ISD/QF/Gz list and it was awesome. Tabled him for a 10-1. The VSD1 never fired a shot and made me 120 points by camping on the outpost.

You might be surprised what Seventh Fleet and a buttload of hull will do for you against squadrons.

*note I'm not saying this one game shows it's top-tier or something, just an observation

Hmm... worth a try. Keeping formation is key to them working and you can only cancel 2 points of damage... more useful against squads than anywhere else...

I've had a Yavaris B-Wing fighter ball make a fresh ISD vanish within one activation (with Norra, BCCs, et all). After an event like that, I want to be sure I have some agency to stop it from just having it's way with my ships. If it can mulch an ISD, a VSD will be only easier.

2 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Have you considered trying a more marketable name?

It stemmed from tossing it together in about 3 minutes trying to come up with Raddus counters (there’s nowhere safe to drop a ship and the dcap vic 2 is great at popping a flotilla trying to flank). The list looked like garbage on paper hence the name, but I have been very happy with its performance vs a variety of archetypes. The only thing I haven’t faced with it is double ISD, and even that it could probably out joust.

I’ve come to find the name endearing, as many people dismiss it when they see it on paper but then play with/against it and see what it can do

3 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Hmm... worth a try. Keeping formation is key to them working and you can only cancel 2 points of damage... more useful against squads than anywhere else...

I've had a Yavaris B-Wing fighter ball make a fresh ISD vanish within one activation (with Norra, BCCs, et all). After an event like that, I want to be sure I have some agency to stop it from just having it's way with my ships. If it can mulch an ISD, a VSD will be only easier.

Norra should only knock one extra shield off the front, don’t redirect until after you have lost all the facing shields, otherwise you are doing her job for her

4 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

Norra should only knock one extra shield off the front, don’t redirect until after you have lost all the facing shields, otherwise you are doing her job for her

It still drills away the extra shields, making any perfect B-Wing hit (Or Gold squadron) hurt even more. ISD shields are strongest in the front, and getting repeatedly hit there blows the redirects pretty quick.

Edit: Pondering this, I can't remember the exact circumstances that caused this ISD to vanish (Where were my fighters? Maybe I was experimenting with Raiders on squadron defense?) But with Yavaris' damage output with fighters I can believe it- 6x attacks dealing 3+1 damage against shields (Norra) to peel away damage and blow the redirects. Then following up with any other attendant fighters, like Gold squadron (using Toryn and BCC, combo with Norra). Soon crits get landed and I think I had a structural damage in there, not to mention Yavaris itself opening fire.

This is why I want to record my games when I eventually get back to the table- if VSD performance is better than expected, at least I have it in writing somewhere why.

3 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

It still drills away the extra shields, making any perfect B-Wing hit (Or Gold squadron) hurt even more. ISD shields are strongest in the front, and getting repeatedly hit there blows the redirects pretty quick.

Edit: Pondering this, I can't remember the exact circumstances that caused this ISD to vanish (Where were my fighters? Maybe I was experimenting with Raiders on squadron defense?) But with Yavaris' damage output with fighters I can believe it- 6x attacks dealing 3+1 damage against shields (Norra) to peel away damage and blow the redirects. Then following up with any other attendant fighters, like Gold squadron (using Toryn and BCC, combo with Norra). Soon crits get landed and I think I had a structural damage in there, not to mention Yavaris itself opening fire.

This is why I want to record my games when I eventually get back to the table- if VSD performance is better than expected, at least I have it in writing somewhere why.

I don’t think you understood what I said. DON’T use the redirects until the shields on the zone they are targeting are all gone. THEN use your redirects and her crit buff no longer applies

Can I remind everyone that Lord Cola started this thread and not Norsehound. Quit hijacking.

4 hours ago, Norsehound said:

-also snipped-

Yet for what I drop in a VSD, rebels can get a couple of hammerheads with E-Racks. (1) Where you see godly strength, I see one vulnerable, expensive target. (2)The way I see it, the universe favors high activation/attrition lists or big batteries. Even if I have my VSD on my side of the board? you'll either out-activate me with rebels' cheaper ships or Drop Yavaris with a B-Wing cloud or A Raddus 75 right in my front and annihilate me. (3+4)If it's not rebels, it's (as I've been harping) an XI7 big battery ship from the Empire.

I don't feel godly when my first Motti VSD crumbles within one turn of defending from an Ackbar gunline.(5) I feel that, if this strength isn't enough, I need to either go wide with disposable ships or go stronger with the more fantastic, well rounded ISDs. The VSD gets left behind. (6)

-snipped-

(1) A Vic 2 with Dcaps and gunner can wipe out both HHs in one round if they approach from the front (and u use vader for rerolls) and if they try to flank well with the points you have saved by not using an ISD you have another ship on the flank to protect you.

(2) your ISD is just as vulnerable, Even Bigger target.

(3) of course rebels will outactivate with cheaper ships! Thats how the game is!! Wether that fair or not is debatable but even if you run a triple ISD list you will still be outactivated! So why NOT take the cheaper VSDs and use the saved points for fighters and sloane, or motti and more ships??

(4) Raddus drop into the side of an imp star is just as painful, and unlike if one vic goes down if an imp star goes down.... well if you dont lose the game palpatine will not be impressed.

(5) one motti VSD.... Against an ackbar gunline? Im not surprised in the slightest it went down. Thats like saying my raider couldnt get close to a mon karrens front arc, all i can say is Duh?

(6) i dont think the VSD gets left behind at all in 400pt games. In higher point games of 600+ then it becomes a weak choice compared to the ISD but at the standard point level its a good choice if you dont want to have such a huge point sink as a ISD

4 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Have you considered trying a more marketable name?

The "Garbage" will do