You may or may not agree but I think the Vic 2 needs a bit of a buff to its movement.

But either way nobody can disagree that the Vic 1 needs a buff. The ship is strait up useless and no one plays it.

The ship could do two things. One, be a carrier but is out done by the Quasar in every aspect. Two be a ordnance delivery platform. But with the horrendous movement it is impossible to get an enemy into black range.

I always thought the Vic should have speed 3 or at least a Support Team slot for Engine Techs. But that might be a bit to much of a buff, so here is my suggestion:

A new title that would say:

“After your determine course step you may discard this card to perform an additional move with your current speed.”

So the ship could do a one time dash to get close to the enemy. I like this card because it directly targets the problems the Vic 1 has without buffing the Vic 2 to much.

Now the question is how could FFG bring such a card into the game and I have a solution for this. Lets say FFG release the Venator and it would be a medium base ship with a max speed of two. Then this card could be a generic Star Destroyer title with the extra restriction “medium ship only”. And just like that you can deliver this card with a Venator expansion.

Ugh

the Vic is not “broken”

Sure it’s trickier to use than an ISD, deployment is much more important, and it is much more dependent on “fitting in” with the rest of your fleets game plan than an ISD/Demo that you can just shove into any fleet and expect results. I’ve used Vic-1’s plenty of times to great effect, you just need to understand their limitations. No other ship in the game can give you that volume of dice with those upgrade slots at that point level.

I mean, as much as I’d love the speed 4 VSD with 2 d retros and a support team slot that everyone keeps starting these threads over, it’s just never gonna happen....

Ok, then please explain to me how a speed two ship can reliably get enemy ships into black range. The rebels either always play MSU where it would literally be impossible to get a ship in black range of the Vic 1 or they play broadside ships that can shoot effectively in a different direction than it has to fly in. So they can always keep you at a distance. Or they play raddus where they just appear in your rear.

3 hours ago, LordCola said:

Ok, then please explain to me how a speed two ship can reliably get enemy ships into black range. The rebels either always play MSU where it would literally be impossible to get a ship in black range of the Vic 1 or they play broadside ships that can shoot effectively in a different direction then it has to fly in. So they can always keep you at a distance.

Anticipate where they are going, and form a picket there. Don’t chase ships, “receive” ships that you can force to end movement in black range.

Add qbt- an extra blue at any range from any arc is very nice.

Objectives- Vics are great at holding objectives and 2nd player play

Area denial- who cares if you don’t get those black dice into range if it is preventing the enemy fleet from going where they want to go

7th fleet

Exrax- you will more than likely only get one close range shot and it may not even be the front arc- make it count

A Vader exrax qbt vic one can throw 2 red 3 black 1 blue + whatever confire with rerolls into something that thinks it can rush past you into your side arcs. That hurts

The buff the vic needs is to be brought to the table.

Also to deter your opponent to be somewhere is another way to force him to be somewhere else. Kill them there!

I have seen very competive lists with VSDs. And I lost agains them! You can combine this ship very good with an Interdictor holding Targeting Scrambler. The VSD does fine with Jerjerrod and Thrawn and is a more durable alternative for a Quasar.

But you have to have a plan! You have to choose the right objectives. You can't win with it against every list and it won't succeed in every situation. Neither will any other ship!

I would wish people wouldn't try to fix ships, before they try to understand them!

I ran a Vic-1 in an objective-focused list with an Interdictor and a pair of Arquittens. Had a modest bid for second, and would run things my Interdictor could pull in, such as Contested Outpost, where I could force my opponent to come to me. I actually really like the ship for hunting larges that want to come in and bully it

Vic-I w/ Tua, ECMs, XI7s, Veteran Gunners, ExRacks -

Put Jonus in there to ensure an Acc on their Brace, it did a good number on ISDs after the Arqs had harrassed a bit from long range. It's really all about deployment but you can deliver a really nasty punch T4 or T5 with one if you line it up proper and make them come to you.

2 hours ago, LordCola said:

Ok, then please explain to me how a speed two ship can reliably get enemy ships into black range.

Play Contested Outpost, Station Assault or Salvage Run.

Also known as playing the objectives.

Which is why.....

3 hours ago, LordCola said:

But either way nobody can disagree that the Vic 1 needs a buff. The ship is strait up useless and no one plays it.

I disagree.

Please read these threads also:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/277268-victory-class-star-destroyer-only-officer/

The reason I want to track my VSD games now is to have some evidence to respond to posters like these, who claim the VSD doesn't need assistance. I would then have some games and hard data to prove otherwise. The VSD needs help, you can't deny it.

When you're forced to lean on certain upgrades to make the ship playable, or have to specify that you MUST run the ship in a certain way... it needs help. Nobody adds qualifiers to Yavaris or Demolisher or MC30s, ISDs, MC80s, CR-90s, or flotillas. And while my first two examples are titles that pretty much define how those units are played, the VSD doen't even have one of those* (Besides, I'm sure people will agree Nebulons and Gladiators suffer in absence of those titles). D-caps is the closest, but with Tua being so much of a mandatory upgrade just to make the ship workable, you aren't allowed any flexibility like Demolisher has (AA vs antiship build) or even Yavaris (do I lean on Fighter Coordination Team, or not?). With D-Caps your only options are Leading Shots or SW-7s. XI7s or Quad Battery Turrets. It's not as if a VSD-I configuration is as powerful as the D-cap one, unless your enemy cooperates by allowing you to get your ship into range.

If you are out-deployed with a VSD, it stands a good chance of being cut-off without participating in the battle. I've seen this firsthand. I need an option that works just as well if I'm out on a flank or if I'm directly across from my enemy. Jerjerrod doesn't help the latter. I also want an easier time committing my second row and spending less time at long range getting pounded on from heavies. The ship needs speed.

If I'm targeted by a big battery with an XI7, I want to have an option for using my defense tokens for more than just redirecting one point of damage. Tua present guarantees it, but I can't use Grint or an intel officer while I'm leaning on the upgrade card necessary to make the ship worth the points invested. The ship needs protection.

The only time I've seen a VSD come close to a major event recently was in direct response to the Raddus drop threat, whereupon it disappeared in the second day. It is FAR from being as ubiquitous and flexible as Demolisher and the run of ISDs- which see far more use and far more frequency being used in top-tier lists.

*7th fleet doesn't count, because it isn't as if 2x 7th fleet ships creates a power duo between two VSDs. For one, the VSD isn't cheap enough to do this. For another, the effect is underwhelming- cancelling a die would have been much more impactful than reducing 1 damage. 7th fleet now can save you from limited bomber strikes but won't help you when a big battery heavy opens fire on you- which is an area the VSD needs help with.

Warlord + H9s is the closest to a power combination, but tell me, are you impressed with 1 damage against all squadrons as you are with denying a ship all of it's defense tokens before obliterating it with a large battery? What about a title that makes you virtually untouchable by cancelling dice by throwing away defense tokens? Warlord is not impressive, it is merely serviceable.

@Norsehound If only one player tracks their games we have no way to remove player skill as a factor from the dataset. Forewarning that I wont acknowledge such data as valuable in isolation.

Yavaris needs squadron aces

Demolisher needs high activations

Mc30s need high activation or Lando and Admo

Need I go on

14 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Demolisher needs high activations

Norm Weir won Gencon 2016 with only two activations. One of which was Demolisher. With Demolisher, I think it can perform well no matter how many activations you bring to the table, just like the ISD. Demolisher is a well-balanced unit that is flexible in many situations (even though the Gladiator isn't). The Victory-Star Destroyer is not. This inflexibility keeps it from being a relied upon to go far in a tournament, which is why it is as bad as it is. If it's designed for a second player-designed list and gets out-bid, can it still turn the game? I don't think so.

At least some analysis and discussion from post-game reports can shed some more light on the VSD's situation. I feel like we're talking past each other- I don't have proof to back these claims the VSD is fine where it is. I do have personal experience of my VSDs being evaded and feeling powerless when I'm defending. But nobody else is going to believe where I'm coming from without some presentable data.

How about going undefeated at a Store Champ with my build, or is that not good enough? Somebody needs to win Worlds with a VSD. (Let's start with an Imperial player making top table)

I would argue that upgrades to make a ship usable IS getting it help. FFG isn't about to go rewrite the VSD's stat card for you, but they did release; Minister Tua, Jerjerrod, QBTs, Disposable Capacitors and External Racks all which significantly help the VSD's performance.

Not all ships are going to be unilaterally useful. VSD is now relegated to discount gunship, and it can still do well in that roll. Yes it gets outgunned by BTA and it should, the points difference alone between the base ships dictates that.

Furthermore, not every ship works for every player. I'm personally not a fan of Quasars, they're perfect for raw squadron pushing but i dislike having to babysit a ship so much as the Quasar requires. VSD might just require more patience and tactics that you don't prefer. It's a game, go play what you enjoy.

Victory 1s love contested outpost, blockage run, hyperspace assault, fleet ambush any objective that really forces the opponent to go to a set location

51 minutes ago, Alzer said:

How about going undefeated at a Store Champ with my build, or is that not good enough? Somebody needs to win Worlds with a VSD. (Let's start with an Imperial player making top table)

I would argue that upgrades to make a ship usable IS getting it help. FFG isn't about to go rewrite the VSD's stat card for you, but they did release; Minister Tua, Jerjerrod, QBTs, Disposable Capacitors and External Racks all which significantly help the VSD's performance.

Not all ships are going to be unilaterally useful. VSD is now relegated to discount gunship, and it can still do well in that roll. Yes it gets outgunned by BTA and it should, the points difference alone between the base ships dictates that.

Furthermore, not every ship works for every player. I'm personally not a fan of Quasars, they're perfect for raw squadron pushing but i dislike having to babysit a ship so much as the Quasar requires. VSD might just require more patience and tactics that you don't prefer. It's a game, go play what you enjoy.

Do you have some play-by-play reports of your store championship games? If you're running VSDs spectacularly, I want to know why. I want to analyze the game with this unit to figure out how it's working well and find a way to apply that strategy to other situations where the Victory is, in my eyes, disadvantaged. Will lists without Tua work? Can a ordnance-focused VSD-I work in a first player build? Must you need D-Caps when running a VSD-II, or can I take a boosted comms II with XI7s and make it work in an all-comers game?

Theoretically the VSDs have the flexibility to do this. My Armada common sense tells me these builds won't work in competitive fields- especially against XI7 armed heavies. The same one everyone takes.

By no means am I demanding FFG re-write the stat card for the VSD. As much as a chimaera pack for the VSD would be beneficial, unless the ship stars in some movie at some point, that's not going to happen.

And I have been observing FFG's attempts to patch this ship over every successive wave. I feel, for some reason, FFG typically evades directly addressing the two big problems (Speed, protection) to make the ship a better all-rounder. It's buffed attack power, but I think if Speed/Protection was buffed, it would be easier to commit the second battery and not require D-Caps. The ship is fine offensively, it has the slots and decent battery to be a good puncher so it doesn't need the offensive boost. Yet, FFG gives it cards like D-Caps and Quad Battery Turrets... nothing other than Tua for defense of one VSD.

I mean;

Wave 3/4 - Konstantine: Intended for multiple VSDs (cheapest imperial medium at the time) to slow down enemies to prevent prey escaping from the VSD. It's not working, otherwise we would have seen more of these lists. Decreasing the speed of the prey is not increasing the speed of the VSD to be a better flanker. And if you're using two larges or mediums as anchor boats to help a VSD get into range, you might as well take another (better) commander and switch that flanking VSD to Demolisher.

Wave 5: Jerjerrod: Helps VSDs with the hairpin turns, which they can use, but so can ISDs and the GSD to greater effect since they are better platforms in general. JJ does little in situations where you are across the board from your enemy. He's useful if you need to turn, but if you're far out of position, I feel the tighter turn is not enough without the faster speed.

Tua: Mandatory because she hits on one of the two things needed; Protection. I'd be so bold as to say if you do see a competitive VSD anywhere in a list to somehow prove to me that VSDs work, Tua will be on it, and you're only running one of them. What if I want to run two and have as great of a chance as a Tua VSD? Can an upgrade card do that for me?

Wave 6: D-Caps, Quad Battery Turrets, Disposable Racks: All offensive upgrades that make the ship an even better attacker... but the net result I think is trying to make the most of the ship's limited lifepsan once it tangles with larger ships. D-Caps lets you level the playing field if you're forced to activate first by throwing six dice in the range of any other heavy that, at best, is returning with 5. Moreover you combo with ions for an effect on top of it. Great! Until you're forced to defend, in which case you're taking hull damage when you've scratched the paint of your opponent's heavy.

Wave 7: Seventh Fleet Star Destroyer: It's a bone to try making more Gladiators better, but ISDs won't take these, and none of the VSD titles are worth the points you sink into them. So it's an uncontested slot. Does 5 points and a friend sound great to you to cancel 1 point of damage? Cancelling 1 die at least allows you to remove an accuracy, or a crit, or a double-hit. That's why Lando works. One damage just isn't enough... it feels about as useful as saying a Victory is more useful than a Quasar because a VSD doesn't immediately go crunch when shot at. That said, Accuracy and an XI7 means your VSD defends only as long as it has hit points- nothing more.

22 minutes ago, chr335 said:

Victory 1s love contested outpost, blockage run, hyperspace assault, fleet ambush any objective that really forces the opponent to go to a set location

Of course they do. What do they do against a Rieekan aceholes defensive build with a deeper bid? Their inflexibility keeps them from being competitive, and to be more flexible they need more protection options or higher speed.

10 hours ago, MandalorianMoose said:

Ugh

the Vic is not “broken”

Other than it’s antenna....

26 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Tua: Mandatory because she hits on one of the two things needed; Protection. I'd be so bold as to say if you do see a competitive VSD anywhere in a list to somehow prove to me that VSDs work, Tua will be on it, and you're only running one of them. What if I want to run two and have as great of a chance as a Tua VSD? Can an upgrade card do that for me?

Needa will cancel incoming long range dice.

Brunson will cancel a die provided you are hugging an obstacle.

Again, try garbage fleet- two VSD’s, neither of which have any of the mentioned officers. 3 copies of 7th fleet in the list go a long way to reducing damage, coupled with engineering to shunt shields to the front.

Of course they do. What do they do against a Rieekan aceholes defensive build with a deeper bid? Their inflexibility keeps them from being competitive, and to be more flexible they need more protection options or higher speed.

Don’t charge straight into the bomber cloud. If he brings that list every time just refuse to engage and snipe something in the final rounds for a 6/5 win. Do that enough and maybe he’ll bring a different list for once

Or bid harder

Disclaimer, I actually like the VSD but that's almost in spite of itself. If you're only running one, by the time I tack on enough upgrades to "fix" I start to feel like those points would be better spent elsewhere. This is why I generally run 2 of them with Dcaps, leading shots, and spinals. I tend to keep them fairly close together to support each other and basically only use nav commands. Pad out with a couple flotillas and squadrons to taste and it can be pretty solid.

25 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

Needa will cancel incoming long range dice.

Brunson will cancel a die provided you are hugging an obstacle.

Again, try garbage fleet- two VSD’s, neither of which have any of the mentioned officers. 3 copies of 7th fleet in the list go a long way to reducing damage, coupled with engineering to shunt shields to the front.

Needa's useability decreases the more relevant the battery becomes. ISDs don't have to make this sacrifice.

Brunsen is the best second-officer consideration I have to partner with Tua.

Going officer-less VSDs is something I want to try soon. I was thinking two VSD-Is // DRacks / Ordnance Experts / XI7s with a Gozanti carrying Expanded Hangars and pushing Jonus guarded by Fel, Dengar, Bossk, and Fett, or something to that degree. Vader would be the commander.

Immediately though, that's a 3 activation list designed to close with something and will be powerless against side-shooting flankers that maintain distance. It's a list type I want to work, because ordnance VSD-Is can be terrible and scary, but it's also fairly easy to stay out of their range and pelt them to death. Especially with the Rebellion having Ackbar on hand to make any ship into a decent flanker.

1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

Needa's useability decreases the more relevant the battery becomes. ISDs don't have to make this sacrifice.

Brunsen is the best second-officer consideration I have to partner with Tua.

Going officer-less VSDs is something I want to try soon. I was thinking two VSD-Is // DRacks / Ordnance Experts / XI7s with a Gozanti carrying Expanded Hangars and pushing Jonus guarded by Fel, Dengar, Bossk, and Fett, or something to that degree. Vader would be the commander.

Immediately though, that's a 3 activation list designed to close with something and will be powerless against side-shooting flankers that maintain distance. It's a list type I want to work, because ordnance VSD-Is can be terrible and scary, but it's also fairly easy to stay out of their range and pelt them to death. Especially with the Rebellion having Ackbar on hand to make any ship into a decent flanker.

Change xi7 to qbt. I also find a mix of a1 and a 2 help cover each other better

Unfortunately my memory isn't quite as good as that. I do know that i would spearhead with the VSD, and follow with the interdictor. We don't have many Rieken players locally so i never ran into that, perhaps I'll make a request to face him next chance i get.

I think the main point of the discussion still stands, the VSD does require bending over backwards to make it work, so you have to do quite a lot to get them to function. Take care with your positioning and deployment most of all. Jerjerrod is my go-to with them. Honestly if anything makes them harder to take now I'd say it's SAd giving an additional activation option to large ships. Perhaps Pryce is the way to go?

4 hours ago, MandalorianMoose said:

Every time I hear the phrase "don't charge into ther bomber cloud" in regards to Rieekan Aces, I'm forced to wonder how that's possible without immediately turning away and fleeing the battle especially if the goal is to snipe at long range. Protip: If you're in shooting range of a Rieekan Aces fleet, you're already well inside their squadron threat range and likely to lose your ship, especially if you haven't fully locked down that ball by killing the Intel squad. This goes double for a ship that's limited to a single yaw click and speed 2.

The number one way to kill a VSD is to get it into combat range. In a one-to-one fight it will lose almost every engagement against any kind of dedicated combat or carrier platform.

I ran 2 VSD IIs & a VSD 1 with Thrawn & it did ok. No Tua.

It suffered from fighter attacks & does not correct from manoeuvre errors well but I was reasonably happy with how it went. Lost the game by a single damage point.

Im sure a skilled player could run it even better.

17 minutes ago, ISD Avenger said:

I ran 2 VSD IIs & a VSD 1 with Thrawn & it did ok. No Tua.

It suffered from fighter attacks & does not correct from manoeuvre errors well but I was reasonably happy with how it went. Lost the game by a single damage point.

Im sure a skilled player could run it even better.

Ill share an experience.

I ran 4 VSD 2s, a quasar and like 8 tie fighters with sloane against 5 ISDs (1 cymoon, 1 kuat, 1 imp2 and 2 imp 2s i believe) no fighters, with vader.

It was a 600pt game. Played against my mate who had started playing armada with me, so very similar skill level and we knew how each other flew and built fleets.

I won by 38pts, sloane was useless, only got rid of 3 tokens the whole game would of been better with vader or motti. In fact im hoping to play again soon with the new revised fleet which has motti.

(I lost 2 Vics, sloane, quasar and 3 or 4 ties, he lost 3 Imps and vader)

This is not my only victory with VSDs, in fact i havent lost a game whenever i use them (im mainly a rebel player)

I cant believe the hate that gets poured on the VSD, all the haters calling it useless, too slow, too weak, too underarmed, etc. Etc. The list goes on.

But i wont argue, let them have their fun complaining about its uselessness. Tell them how you run it if asked and the enjoy their sgocked expressions when you beat them with it

The best part about this experience, the part that allows me to ignore the naysayers?

Our fleets flew straight at each other, and even better i had 3 IMP stars go through my quasar on my flank, yet i won and had 2 Vics ESCAPE.

(I destroyed just over 300pts of stuff, he killed just below 300)

I know i really shouldn't comment, but i own 4 VSDs and I really like using them as pocket battleships. A role I feel they fill well.

8 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

@Norsehound If only one player tracks their games we have no way to remove player skill as a factor from the dataset. Forewarning that I wont acknowledge such data as valuable in isolation.

Yavaris needs squadron aces

Demolisher needs high activations

Mc30s need high activation or Lando and Admo

Need I go on

Id add trc+ cr90 to the list.

Every ship gets boosted by different upgrades. Just because these upgeades arent the same for every ship, it doesnt make any ship better or worse than others.