13 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

Her flying skills is explained in the book 'Before the Awakening' that was released at the same time as the movie.

The films shouldn't rely on outside material to explain traits and the like away. Its like I mentioned in my previous post, just look at how ANH establishes and continues to remind us that Luke was a pilot long before he ever got in his fighter where as Rey in TFA only remarks about it after she pulls off her daring maneuver. I try to keep up with whats going on with the books and the like but not everyone wants to feel like they need to do their homework to see a film, the film itself should contain all the necessary information.

I think one of the biggest issues that the ST has is due to being rushed and could easily use more refined/worked screenplays/scripts. Heck TLJ was written before Rian Johnson even saw the final cut of TFA. The films could easily use another year on preproduction and refinement, and I'd be fine with that wait if we got stronger films out of it.

22 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

As for her skill with the Force and why is the Force giving her the abilities. My theory is that Anakin really brought balance in the Force when he killed the Emperor. And now that balance is reestablished, the Force is trying to keep the balance. Snoke came out to counter Luke, and now Rey come out to counter Kylo. Snoke died, and then Luke died. I think that both the Jedi Order and the rule of 2 of the Sith was preventing the Force to balance itself. And my personnal theory is that Episode 9 will end with Rey and Kylo both dying, because the Force connected them. Yin and Yang.

I'm not too big a fan of that, that its like some sort of predetermination effect working through them. But, at the same time considering the Mortis bit from Clone Wars, and Rebels dealing with time travel and the three individuals of the force I could see them playing with that to an extent. Not that I like it. But, honestly I don't see Rey dying, not with JJ directing he'll probably play it fairly safe. I imagine they might go with a Rey convincing Kylo to turn back to the light or working with her, Kylo realizing his folly and dying while Rey and the other characters escape/get away, them not concluding the story and pushing the story into another trilogy. Really, to be fair I imagine most of the new cast won't die in the next film; however with the rumor of Lando coming back I could see them killing him off since that seems to be the ST's modius operadum.

13 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

As for the hover tractor, I don't remember that, where was that said? If in a book then that does nothing to help the film.

No no. That was the frankly ridiculous explanation they gave for how Luke was able to translate his atmospheric piloting into space seamlessly.

Since both his T-16 and the X-wing are made by Incom so they have similar controls ?

My car has a steering wheel, Formula 1 cars have steering wheels, ergo I should be able to win an F1 race on my first attempt.

This is the logic of ANH, that nobody bats an eye at because they've had 40 years to come to terms with his stupid that is, yet TFA gets no such leeway.

13 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

A character who doesn't have to earn her abilities is not relatable nor compelling, in my opinion. There is no downside to her ability she just gets abilities walking around touching people.

Without earning your powers, you're less likely to respect those powers and less able to control them as well. That's an area they've been exploring with Rey and I think that's far more interesting than the traditional master/apprentice relationship that Star Wars lifted directly from Kung Fu movies. I'd rather see a new vector for power acquisition than one that has been in hundreds, perhaps thousands, of movies.

Side note, I also find Kylo very interesting for similar reasons. Many people don't like his petulant child routine. Personally, the idea of an angry youth throwing a temper tantrum with a light saber and force powers is frightening prospect.

13 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

As for Luke, he makes note  of how easy that shot is in regards to size due to  shooting womprats, and all Obi-Wan does is tell him to trust his feelings letting the force flow through him. Red Leader made missed a similar shot, so Luke making the same shot with some force magic in there to tip it over and do what they needed is beyond fine    .                   

I don't think an arrogant kid saying something would be easy should be taken as evidence that it is. Nor do I find a combat veteran missing the shot with his targeting computer all that similar to Luke landing it without.

It's like a veteran sniper missing a headshot and the guy who's on his first mission decides to take the scope off a rifle he's never fired and gets the headshot anyway. They are similar in that the projectile went roughly the same direction, but in no other way.

13 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

There is an additional year between ESB and ROTJ, again giving  Luke  a  chance to tr  ain and I know he saw Obi-Wan use a mind trick, I  forget if he ever saw a force choke on screen, of  course with the books and comics he likely had.   

Books and comics are acceptable ways to explain holes in the OT, but not in the ST? It's really shocking how common this PoV is for people don't like the ST so far.

Not only are we going to compare these new movies to some of the most iconic movies of all time, we're actually going to hold them to a higher standard?

The ST isn't disappointing fans, fans are disappointing themselves by holding these new movies to impossibly high standards. They must execute their storytelling better than the OT to be acceptable.

13 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

Rey goes from someone who didn't know the force existed   to being a jedi master (based of Yoda's comment about how Rey had everything she needed in TLJ  )    in what    amounts to 3 days to a week   .    

She's not a jedi master by any stretch. If I show up to class with a notebook, pencil, and calculator, I have what I need to do math. That doesn't make me a mathematician.

13 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

It is ag  ain  one of the reasons I so wish there was a time skip between TFA and TLJ to give Rey time to train and earn her abilities.

Here, I 100% agree. Coincidentally (or not), it is the first and only flaw of the storytelling we've discussed. Every other point is a matter of personal preference but have no bearing whatsoever on whether or not a movie is a "Complete Cinematic Failure."

The arbitrary decision to make it take place right after TFA is by far the biggest problem with the movie. It undermines Rey's training sequence and just in general feels like there's 3 separate timelines that finally sync up in the 3rd act. Time feels like it moves differently for Finn and Rose as it does for the rebel fleet, and both feel completely out of sync with Rey.

If they had just put into the opening scrawl that the First Order was reeling after the destruction of Starkiller Base, but had rallied their forces, located the rebel base, and were now about to retaliate, you've got the same opening scene, but now with a couple weeks in between for Rey to start her training.

It's a flaw, certainly, but it didn't ruin the movie for me. Just made me go "huh, you guys sure made it harder on yourselves to write this movie for no reason."

11 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

The films shouldn't rely on outside material to explain traits and the like away. Its like I mentioned in my previous post, just look at how ANH establishes and continues to remind us that Luke was a pilot long before he ever got in his fighter where as Rey in TFA only remarks about it after she pulls off her daring maneuver. I try to keep up with whats going on with the books and the like but not everyone wants to feel like they need to do their homework to see a film, the film itself should contain all the necessary information.

And like I said, while I'm personnally okay with this approach in Star Wars, I can understand why someone would not. But the information is still there and now you know how she learned to fly.

I think that this kind of information is okay to be given in an outside source because I think that the general audience don't really care about these details: 'She said that she's a pilot, fair enough.' It's the Star Wars geeks that really want to know the why and how of everything.

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

No no. That was the frankly ridiculous explanation they gave for how Luke was able to translate his atmospheric piloting into space seamlessly.

Since both his T-16 and the X-wing are made by Incom so they have similar controls ?

My car has a steering wheel, Formula 1 cars have steering wheels, ergo I should be able to win an F1 race on my first attempt.

This is the logic of ANH, that nobody bats an eye at because they've had 40 years to come to terms with his stupid that is, yet TFA gets no such leeway. 

No, my point is that the script actually sets it in the audience's mind that Luke at least knows how to pilot. There is the rule of 3s afterall, that if something is important you remind the audience at least 3 times. The audience accepts Luke can pilot because it was established beforehand in the film, at multiple points, that he knew how to whereas Rey only gets a single acknowledgement afterwards.

It is the kind of thing that likely could have been tightened up and dealt with had they been given more time to refine the script.

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

Without earning your powers, you're less likely to respect those powers and less able to control them as well. That's an area they've been exploring with Rey and I think that's far more interesting than the traditional master/apprentice relationship that Star Wars lifted directly from Kung Fu movies. I'd rather see a new vector for power acquisition than one that has been in hundreds, perhaps thousands, of movies.

Side note, I also find Kylo very interesting for similar reasons. Many people don't like his petulant child routine. Personally, the idea of an angry youth throwing a temper tantrum with a light saber and force powers is frightening prospect.

As I've said, I don't care for that approach, but you know what? I'll try to withhold some judgement until we see Episode 9 stuff and see how it plays out. As for Kylo, nope, you're right, he is fairly interesting.

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

I don't think an arrogant kid saying something would be easy should be taken as evidence that it is. Nor do I find a combat veteran missing the shot with his targeting computer all that similar to Luke landing it without.

It impacted on the surface, now I don't know whether that means it missed the target in general or that it just hit the exhaust port itself and detonated near the surface instead of going down the tube. However, he could make the shot, and I think it is fairly possible especially what we saw with Luke and the training droid that the force could help guide his shot like it helped guide his arms to move the lightsaber to block a bolt.

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

Books and comics are acceptable ways to explain holes in the OT, but not in the ST? It's really shocking how common this PoV is for people don't like the ST so far.

Not only are we going to compare these new movies to some of the most iconic movies of all time, we're actually going to hold them to a higher standard?

The ST isn't disappointing fans, fans are disappointing themselves by holding these new movies to impossibly high standards. They must execute their storytelling better than the OT to be acceptable.

I wasn't saying that the books and comics are acceptable to explain away plot holes, only that with their being time skips between the films it gives time for adventures and stories to fill out that expanse and make it understandable that the characters have changed and grown off screen. And being held to a high standard is what they have to deal with when making sequels to films as influential as the OT, even the PT was held to a high standard at first and then trashed because of its quality. Honestly, what I'd love would be a ST that was as good as the new planet of the apes films are to the original or at least the original film; but, so long as the films are enjoyable and don't create massive plot holes I'd be fine.

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

She's not a jedi master by any stretch. If I show up to class with a notebook, pencil, and calculator, I have what I need to do math. That doesn't make me a mathematician.

Maybe it was me, but it sort of felt like it was where they were going with it. The fact Yoda made the point that she everything she needed and that Luke said to Kylo he wasn't the last of the Jedi. But she surely isn't a padawan at this point, and will likely be training herself entirely between TLJ and 9.

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

Here, I 100% agree. Coincidentally (or not), it is the first and only flaw of the storytelling we've discussed. Every other point is a matter of personal preference but have no bearing whatsoever on whether or not a movie is a "Complete Cinematic Failure."

The arbitrary decision to make it take place right after TFA is by far the biggest problem with the movie. It undermines Rey's training sequence and just in general feels like there's 3 separate timelines that finally sync up in the 3rd act. Time feels like it moves differently for Finn and Rose as it does for the rebel fleet, and both feel completely out of sync with Rey.

If they had just put into the opening scrawl that the First Order was reeling after the destruction of Starkiller Base, but had rallied their forces, located the rebel base, and were now about to retaliate, you've got the same opening scene, but now with a couple weeks in between for Rey to start her training.

It's a flaw, certainly, but it didn't ruin the movie for me. Just made me go "huh, you guys sure made it harder on yourselves to write this movie for no reason."

Never said the film was a complete cinematic failure. Both TFA and TLJ have made crap tons of cash at the box office, though TLJ has left the fandom split perhaps just as Rian Johnson wishes based off an early interview with him . Solo has been their only major failure and that is due to so many darn issues including marketing, time it was released, issues behind the scenes, etc. And heck, Solo wasn't a bad film, it just wasn't in my mind a good one either, it was pretty forgettable overall.

I think they went with having it be right after TFA due to how TFA ended, since Star Wars films never did a major time skip before in a film, of course they neither did a flash back either, both trends were broken with this film though the flashbacks with Luke and Kylo and the flash forward at the end with the stable kids.

38 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

And like I said, while I'm personnally okay with this approach in Star Wars, I can understand why someone would not. But the information is still there and now you know how she learned to fly.

I think that this kind of information is okay to be given in an outside source because I think that the general audience don't really care about these details: 'She said that she's a pilot, fair enough.' It's the Star Wars geeks that really want to know the why and how of everything. 

Oh sorry, I wasn't trying to say you did, I was just saying that in general that I don't think a film should require the audience to reed extra material to explain away plot points. If you felt attacked, then I am completely sorry for that.

I think it is just a matter of stronger script writing that a person's skills are pointed out, forshadowed, or explained beforehand. Like, not Star Wars, but look at Jurassic Park, the film sets up the raptor attack early on with Dr. Grant scaring that one kid, only for that to be the same attack that happens later against Muldoon. The raptors in general were built up throughout the film reminding the audience how deadly they were, with the opening scene, Grant talking about them, his reaction to seeing a baby one, the visit to the raptor cage, and the worry they had when the gates power went out from Nedry doing his crap. We get the whole two females 'finding a way' being foreshadowed by Grant tying the two female ends of his seatbelts together as they land. The film has lots of little things they overtly or subtly put in the viewers mind long before we see them.

And, yes, to be fair us as Star Wars fans/geeks want to understand what is going on, especially since we are the ones with the investment to this franchise. And yet, I still can't really explain how big the FO is, or the current state of the New Republic/whatever is left of it.

21 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

I think they went with having it be right after TFA due to how TFA ended, since Star Wars films never did a major time skip before in a film, of course they neither did a flash back either, both trends were broken with this film though the flashbacks with Luke and Kylo and the flash forward at the end with the stable kids.

No, EVERY previous Star Wars movie has had a substantial time jump between movies. New Hope to Empire was something like four or five years, Empire to Jedi was at least a year. Phantom Menace to Clones saw Little Orphan Ani go from being a whiny little kid to a whiny teenager, so that's some kind of ten-ish years. Clones to Sith went from the very start of the Clone War to the end of it.

This was the first time they went DIRECTLY from one movie to the next without any extra time.

And it was an extremely silly decision.

23 hours ago, Sekac said:

No  no. That was the frankly ridiculous explanation they gave  for how Luke was able to translate his atmospheric piloting into space seamlessly.

Since both his T-16 and the X-wing are made by Incom so they have similar controls ?

My car has a steering wheel,  Formula 1 cars have steering wheels, ergo I should be able to win an F1 race on my first attempt.

This is the logic of ANH, that nobody bats an eye at because they've had 40 years to come to  terms with his stupid that is, yet TFA gets no such leeway.  

The Rebel Alliance had a flight simulator on Massassi base. He got to train on it before General Dodonna's mission briefing.

This scene appears in books for ANH.

21 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

Oh sorry, I wasn't trying to say you did, I was just saying that in general that I don't think a film should require the audience to reed extra material to explain away plot points. If you felt attacked, then I am completely sorry for that.

I think it is just a matter of stronger script writing that a person's skills are pointed out, forshadowed, or explained beforehand. Like, not Star Wars, but look at Jurassic Park, the film sets up the raptor attack early on with Dr. Grant scaring that one kid, only for that to be the same attack that happens later against Muldoon. The raptors in general were built up throughout the film reminding the audience how deadly they were, with the opening scene, Grant talking about them, his reaction to seeing a baby one, the visit to the raptor cage, and the worry they had when the gates power went out from Nedry doing his crap. We get the whole two females 'finding a way' being foreshadowed by Grant tying the two female ends of his seatbelts together as they land. The film has lots of little things they overtly or subtly put in the viewers mind long before we see them.

And, yes, to be fair us as Star Wars fans/geeks want to understand what is going on, especially since we are the ones with the investment to this franchise. And yet, I still can't really explain how big the FO is, or the current state of the New Republic/whatever is left of it.

Don't worry, I didn't felt attacked by your comment.

To be fair, both exemple you gave (Luke pilot skills and Jurassik Park Raptors attack) both happens at the end of the movie, they both had plenty of time to set it. In the case of Rey piloting the Falcon, it happens pretty soon in the story. The only scenes we had with Rey was her being a scavenger, showing her lonely life and rescuing BB8. She didn't interact with a lot of people (Unkar and monologuing with BB8) before getting to pilot the Falcon. The scenario was pretty simple, they get attack in Niima Outpost and must escape in the Falcon, cool chase over the desert and into the shipgraveyard before going to space.

How could they have set it before without breaking the feeling? They could have shown her using her pilot simulator, but then I think it would have break the feeling of loneliness and long wait they were trying to established when she sits alone at the feet of her AT-AT. I think it could have confused the general audience even more: 'Wait, is she saying she know how to pilot just because she played a videogame...?'. She could have explained it a little more to Finn, maybe afterward, but I think it would have feel rushed and would have gave an explanation to something that, like I said earlier, I don't think the general audience really cared about in the first place. We do see her with a pilot doll and putting a pilot helmet on, so we do know that she dream about taking to the sky. It doesn't explain her pilot skill at all, but it shows her interest to piloting a ship.

To be honest, when I saw the scene, her piloting the Falcon, I was also wondering how she can be so good, but then I simply assumed that the Falcon was so full of modification that there must be a lot of pilot assistant programs and that she must know the terrain, her being a scavenger. Now, knowing that she also spent a lot of time using a pilot training program because there is not much to do in the desert, it makes more sense.

But the scene is mostly there to have a cool chase in a breathtalking setting. They could have her just go to space, but visually speaking, I really love that chase and I'm glad it's in the movie.

41 minutes ago, AwesomeJedi said:

The Rebel Alliance had a flight simulator on Massassi base. He got to train on it before General Dodonna's mission briefing.

This scene appears in books for ANH.

That's fine. But if we're criticizing the new trilogy based on the movies exclusively and ignoring any other material that answers questions people have, then the OT must be treated the same. You can't view one trilogy with 40 years of fanboys plugging all the holes they had, and view the others exclusively on their own merits.

That scene ended up on the cutting room floor which means they didn't feel it was necessary. Unfortunately, they turned Luke into the biggest Mary Sue in all of Star Wars. But nobody cares because he's a man. Women are not allowed to be inexplicably good at stuff.

1 hour ago, NotBatman said:

No, EVERY previous Star Wars movie has had a substantial time jump between movies. New Hope to Empire was something like four or five years, Empire to Jedi was at least a year. Phantom Menace to Clones saw Little Orphan Ani go from being a whiny little kid to a whiny teenager, so that's some kind of ten-ish years. Clones to Sith went from the very start of the Clone War to the end of it.

This was the first time they went DIRECTLY from one movie to the next without any extra time.

And it was an extremely silly decision.

I think it is TPM --> 10 Years --> ATOC --> 3 Years --> ROTS --> 19 Years --> ANH --> 3 Years --> ESB --> 1 Year --> ROTJ --> 30 Years --> TFA --> A few minutes/maybe a day? --> TLJ

What I meant by time skip was one within the film, IE if they had to show the Luke and Rey scene show that then skip forward X amount of time, the film makes use of a time skip later with the children hearing about the Luke battle at the end of the film.

30 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

Don't worry, I didn't felt attacked by your comment.

To be fair, both exemple you gave (Luke pilot skills and Jurassik Park Raptors attack) both happens at the end of the movie, they both had plenty of time to set it. In the case of Rey piloting the Falcon, it happens pretty soon in the story. The only scenes we had with Rey was her being a scavenger, showing her lonely life and rescuing BB8. She didn't interact with a lot of people (Unkar and monologuing with BB8) before getting to pilot the Falcon. The scenario was pretty simple, they get attack in Niima Outpost and must escape in the Falcon, cool chase over the desert and into the shipgraveyard before going to space.

How could they have set it before without breaking the feeling? They could have shown her using her pilot simulator, but then I think it would have break the feeling of loneliness and long wait they were trying to established when she sits alone at the feet of her AT-AT. I think it could have confused the general audience even more: 'Wait, is she saying she know how to pilot just because she played a videogame...?'. She could have explained it a little more to Finn, maybe afterward, but I think it would have feel rushed and would have gave an explanation to something that, like I said earlier, I don't think the general audience really cared about in the first place. We do see her with a pilot doll and putting a pilot helmet on, so we do know that she dream about taking to the sky. It doesn't explain her pilot skill at all, but it shows her  interest to piloting a ship.

To be honest, when I saw the scene, her piloting the Falcon, I was also wondering how she can be so good, but then I simply assumed that the Falcon was so full of modification that there must be a lot of pilot assistant programs and that she must know the terrain, her being a scavenger. Now, knowing that she also spent a lot of time using a pilot training program because there is not much to do in the desert, it makes more sense.

But the scene is mostly there to have a cool chase in a breathtalking setting. They could have her just go to space, but visually speaking, I really love that chase and I'm glad it's in the movie.

Possibly having it where she she sat in a fallen X-wing or other rebel starfighter after eating and then have her looking to the sky with the ship that was leaving the planet? Not sure if that would work or not, but it would likely get along the idea that she definitely has an interest in piloting. Then again, it could be seen as silly or too much. That or maybe have Unkar Plott mention having her run another haul of stuff to some refinement or scrap yard like place with the Quadjumper? Not specifically saying the quadjumper, but saying she'd need to make a hauling run in the next couple days. Of course part of the issue coming up with a change to the scene is that that whole silent bit with Rey going through her day is my favorite part of the film.

2 minutes ago, Sekac said:

That's fine. But if we're criticizing the new trilogy based on the movies exclusively and ignoring any other material that answers questions people have, then the OT must be treated the same. You can't view one trilogy with 40 years of fanboys plugging all the holes they had, and view the others exclusively on their own merits.

That scene ended up on the cutting room floor which means they didn't feel it was necessary. Unfortunately, they turned Luke into the biggest Mary Sue in all of Star Wars. But nobody cares because he's a man. Women are not allowed to be inexplicably good at stuff.

Luke is not a Mary Sue, and he never has been. He is an everyman. If, you want another example of a Mary Sue in Star Wars then look no further than TPM with Anakin who is easily a Gary Stu, but he loses that ATOC and onwards.

11 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

Luke is not a Mary Sue, and he never has been. He is an everyman.

Every man is a better with a blaster than soldiers.

Every man is a better X-wing pilot than X-wing pilots.

Every man is capable of teaching themselves how to be the best lightsaber duelist in the galaxy.

Every man is capable of teaching themselves to use force powers they've never even seen.

5 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Every man is a better with a blaster than soldiers.

Every man is a better X-wing pilot than X-wing pilots.

Every man is capable of teaching themselves how to be the best lightsaber duelist in the galaxy.

Every man is capable of teaching themselves to use force powers they've never even seen.

- Do we get a scene to compare his shooting to other Rebel Troopers? If not, I think Han is a better shot. Also, first time we see him with a blaster he gets recked by a Tuskan Raider. Heck, Leia was so dissatisfied with him and Han that she took his blaster on the Death Star and was a better shot.

- An X-Wing pilot that needs to get bailed out by Wedge and Han to not get shot down, and who when flying a T-47 gets shot down.

- I don't think he ever was the best lightsaber duelist in the galaxy, he loses to vader and only wins the second time due to tapping into the darkside. And again, years between films to give time to train in general.

- What force powers do we see him use in ESB that aren't taught to him by Yoda and Obiwan? And, again 1 year between ESB and ROTJ, Obiwan was likely still trying to help train him.

The fact of the matter is, Luke aside from having piloting skills, and general shooting skills starts at a low level and has to train, and grow over the films and the timespan between them to be able to do any major kind of feat.

16 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

Possibly having it where she she sat in a fallen X-wing or other rebel starfighter after eating and then have her looking to the sky with the ship that was leaving the planet? Not sure if that would work or not, but it would likely get along the idea that she definitely has an interest in piloting. Then again, it could be seen as silly or too much. That or maybe have Unkar Plott mention having her run another haul of stuff to some refinement or scrap yard like place with the Quadjumper? Not specifically saying the quadjumper, but saying she'd need to make a hauling run in the next couple days. Of course part of the issue coming up with a change to the scene is that that whole silent bit with Rey going through her day is my favorite part of the film.

How is her sitting in a X-Wing really different than her putting a pilot helmet to show her interest in piloting? I think that her sitting in an x-wing would be even worst because now people would go: 'Urgh, you don't learn how to fly just because you sit in a spaceship, how stupid!'.

Having Unkar ask her to pilot a ship I think would have been a pointless scene and create a relation with the character that is simply not there. He don't give a **** about Rey, she's just there to bring him salvaged part for food. I don't think he thrust her to pilot a ship, he certainly doesn't care about her being beaten up to get the droid.

And again, I don't see why it's so important in the first place to know how she learned to pilot and get it exposed to us multiple time before having her get into the ship. Especially since the scene is not an actual plot point, it could have been skipped entirely and the movie would have been the same. It's just there to look cool and give us a a nice spaceship chase. If there is a car chase in a movie, do we really have to know how the driver got this good to do all the stunts he's doing prior to him getting in the car? We don't really know how hard it really is to pilot a ship in Star wars. Like I said earlier, there might be a lot of pilot assistant programs that it is actually not that hard to do. Obi-Wan was an excellent pilot in Attack of the Clone in the asteroid chase scene, and I don't see anybody wondering how exactly he learned how to pilot. We just assume that he knows how. She showed interest in piloting, she said that she's a pilot to Finn, I think that it's enough. If you really want to learn more, it's actually explained in a book that came at the same time as the movie.

50 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Unfortunately, they turned Luke into the biggest Mary Sue in all of Star Wars. But nobody cares because he's a man. Women are not allowed to be inexplicably good at stuff.

I actually think that Obi-Wan is a big contender for the title. Is there one thing that he can't do? He even get to shoot a blaster and gets Grievous in the heart with his first shot.

I don't recall hearing one argument that Luke was too inexplicably good at stuff until Rey came along.

3 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

- Do we get a scene to compare his shooting to other Rebel Troopers? If not, I think Han is a better shot.

No, we get scenes where he gets in shootouts with storm troopers. And he wins all of them. Just like every man's first combat experience.

5 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

- An X-Wing pilot that needs to get bailed out by Wedge and Han to not get shot down, and who when flying a T-47 gets shot down.

So? They were outnumbered. Having bogeys targeting him makes him an average pilot?

8 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

- I don't think he ever was the best lightsaber duelist in the galaxy, he loses to         vader and only wins the second time due to tapping into the darkside. And again, years between  films to give time to train in general.  

Vader was the previous best lightsaber duelist in the galaxy and Luke beats him. So what if he tapped into the dark side? I'm pretty sure Vader was tapping into it too.

Swinging a lightsaber at inanimate objects does not make you a good duelist. Dueling does. Well... it would for an everyman, but Luke clearly doesn't need that.

12 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

  - What force powers do we see him use in ESB that aren't taught to him by Yoda and Obiwan? And, again 1 year between ESB and ROTJ, Obiwan was likely still trying to help train him.

He force pulls the lightsaber to himself in the Wampa cave.

Sure we can imagine a force ghost trained him before RotJ, but we can also imagine explanations for any of Rey's abilities. We're not talking about our vivid imaginations though, we're talking about the movies.

18 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

The fact of the matter is, Luke aside from having piloting skills, and general shooting  skills starts at a low level and has to train, and grow over the films and the timespan between them to be able to do any major kind of feat.

Most people would consider blowing up the Death Star to be a major feat. He requires 0 training to pull that off. He has atmospheric piloting skills but his first time in an X-wing, his first time in combat, and his first time in space are not obstacles for him at all.

6 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I don't recall hearing one argument that Luke was too inexplicably good at stuff until Rey came along.

Exactly. Why do you think that is? Because people weren't phased by a man being inexplicably good at stuff. But it was a huge problem as soon a character (who just so happened to be a woman) was good, but not as good as Luke.

Hmmm. Weird huh?

50 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

What I meant by time skip was one within the film, IE if they had to show the Luke and Rey scene show that then skip forward X amount of time, the film makes use of a time skip later with the children hearing about the Luke battle at the end of the film.

Ack, derp, sorry.

Just now, Sekac said:

Exactly. Why do you think that is? Because people weren't phased by a man being inexplicably good at stuff. But it was a huge problem as soon a character (who just so happened to be a woman) was good, but not as good as Luke.

Hmmm. Weird huh?

I think it is because that's the only way the argument that Rey isn't a Mary Sue can be made. And it isn't really an argument for Rey not being a Mary Sue as it is one of "If you're okay with Luke (who is totally a Mary Sue,) then there isn't any reason you shouldn't be okay with Rey."

I suggest that you're adding, "And if you aren't okay with Rey you're a sexist and that makes you a bad person and bad people are wrong therefore Rey isn't a Mary Sue."

From a broader perspective, Men are human doings while women are human beings.

I suggest from the perception you've created for me here that you don't see Rey as a Mary Sue because of your own sexism. You forgive her being inexplicably good because as a woman she is inherently valuable. Criticism of her inexplicable ability is an attack on her inherent value as a woman to you. You attack Luke's journey because it is a criticism of Rey being inherently valuable.

I suggest that your claims of sexism in favor of Luke are you projecting. I suggest you are more sexist than those who criticize Rey as you condone her being inexplicably good at stuff because she is a woman.

45 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

How is her sitting in a X-Wing really different than her putting a pilot helmet to show her interest in piloting? I think that her sitting in an x-wing would be even worst because now people would go: 'Urgh, you don't learn how to fly just because you sit in a spaceship, how stupid!'.

Having Unkar ask her to pilot a ship I think would have been a pointless scene and create a relation with the character that is simply not there. He don't give a **** about Rey, she's just there to bring him salvaged part for food. I don't think he thrust her to pilot a ship, he certainly doesn't care about her being beaten up to get the droid.

And again, I don't see why it's so important in the first place to know how she learned to pilot and get it exposed to us multiple time before having her get into the ship. Especially since the scene is not an actual plot point, it could have been skipped entirely and the movie would have been the same. It's just there to look cool and give us a a nice spaceship chase. If there is a car chase in a movie, do we really have to know how the driver got this good to do all the stunts he's doing prior to him getting in the car? We don't really know how hard it really is to pilot a ship in Star wars. Like I said earlier, there might be a lot of pilot assistant programs that it is actu  ally not that hard to do. Obi-Wan was an excellent pilot in Attack of the Clone in the asteroid chase scene, and I don't see anybody wondering how exactly he learned how to pilot. We just assume that he knows how. She showed interest in piloting, she said that she's a pilot to Finn, I think that it's enough. If you really want to learn more, it's actually explained in a book that came at the same time as the movie.

I thought you said to offer some other way to show it, so I tried to throw something in there, never said they were good ideas, just ideas to get it across that she was familiar with piloting. And, I'll admit that even those changes might further elicit similar complaints that we have now. As for Obi-wan considering that the Jedi have a craft literally called a Jedi Starfighter, I would just assume that was part of their training program as padawans.

28 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Exactly. Why do you think that is? Because people weren't phased by a man being inexplicably good at stuff. But it was a huge problem as soon a character (who just so happened to be a woman) was good, but not as good as Luke.

Hmmm. Weird huh?

Not inexplicably, everyone has some things that they are good at. And yet, you kind of want to imply that it is just because that Rey is a woman. I mean I remember people rather liking Mara Jade, and while Ahsoka was derided early on that was due to her being annoying not a woman and guess what, she is now renowned as a well loved character by most or at least most that I see talking about her. Again, look at Leia, Hera, Mon Mothma, etc... I really think it is a scripting problem, not a man or woman problem.

32 minutes ago, Sekac said:

No, we get scenes where he gets in shootouts with storm troopers. And he wins all of them. Just like every man's first combat experience.

So, are we just going to say all of the characters are mary sues now? Cause uh, I kind of remember Han, Leia, and Chewie all getting straight wins there too. Its almost as if the villain's minions couldn't shoot and kill our heroes due to plot armor. Heck, that is something that is fairly common in most films.

32 minutes ago, Sekac said:

So? They were outnumbered. Having bogeys targeting him makes him an average pilot?

It means he has to rely on his squadmates. An everyman, skilled at piloting still requires the assistance of others. If he was a mary sue/gary stu he could likely do it all himself.

32 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Vader was the previous best lightsaber duelist in the galaxy and Luke beats him. So what if he tapped into the dark side? I'm pretty sure Vader was tapping into it too.

Swinging a lightsaber at inanimate objects does not make you a good duelist. Dueling does. Well... it would for an everyman, but Luke clearly doesn't need that.

Luke is toyed with by Vader in ESB, and Vader is going easy on him even in ROTJ more or less due to him you know being Vader's son. Vader never went all out against Luke to kill him. And Luke tapping into the darkside meant he, for a second, went the easy path to strength. We've seen numerous times that the darkside is the easy way to power, though Luke quickly rejects said power. And swinging at an inanimate object might not make you a good duelist, but practicing for YEARS still gives you muscle memory and helps prepare you for a fight.

32 minutes ago, Sekac said:

He force pulls the lightsaber to himself in the Wampa cave.

Sure we can imagine a force ghost trained him before RotJ, but we can also imagine explanations for any of Rey's abilities. We're not talking about our vivid imaginations though, we're talking about the movies.

Something he actively struggled with too, it wasn't too easy for him was it? And a time skip helps suspend my disbelief for it, just like one for TLJ would of helped done for me. TFA and TLJ don't offer for explanations like that due to the very short amount of time (if any) between them. When there is a gap, you can make assumptions for training and adventures to gain abilities. But when we literally see her go from someone who does not know of the force to being a master or at the very least the strongest or second strongest user of it in the span of days is stretching it.

32 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Most people would consider blowing up the Death Star to be a major feat. He requires 0 training to pull that off. He has atmospheric piloting skills but his first time in an X-wing, his first time in combat, and his first time in space are not obstacles for him at all.

It is, but again flying in a straight line and shooting forward is not exactly the most unbelievable thing ever. He does have training flying a atmospheric craft, which honestly would probably be harder to fly than one meant for space that lacked say something always trying to pull you down into a crash aka gravity. Add in the fact that he was said to be good at flying through beggars canyon, a canyon, sound sort of similar to a trench even. And again he makes a shot that Red Leader nearly made, but had the force help guide him with it.

1 minute ago, Frimmel said:

I suggest that you're adding, "And if you aren't okay with Rey you're a sexist and that makes you a bad person and bad people are wrong therefore Rey isn't a Mary Sue."

Get that strawman! Get him good!

I'm not going to claim anyone person is sexist, and haven't.

There are, however, without any shadow of a doubt, people that don't like Rey because they're sexists. But I'm not going to assume who is and isn't. No, I think the vast majority of people who have a problem with Rey but don't have a problem with Luke are biased. Not necessarily biased against women, but biased towards Luke.

Many people have grown up with Luke all their lives. They've been fans long before they began to think critically about characters in movies. Luke is grandfathered in to acceptance, whereas Rey is viewed more critically by a more cynical audience.

And for the record, I have no problem with either character. They're both OP, but Luke is definitely more so. Rey has a learning curve, Luke just excels at anything he needs to.

26 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

I thought you said to offer some other way to show it, so I tried to throw something in there, never said they were good ideas, just ideas to get it across that she was familiar with piloting. And, I'll admit that even those changes might further elicit similar complaints that we have now.

Sorry, didn’t want to sound aggressive and now that I’ve reread myself, I kinda did, sorry.

But yeah, I fail to see how it could have been brought in the movie in a satisfying manner just to please the most hardcore fans (the one that will read all the books anyway or know someone that will).

At the end of the day, we got a cool chase scene and we know how Rey actually learned to pilot.

I think that when Maz is asked how she got the saber, her answer could apply to a LOT of questions fans have during a Star Wars movie: That is a story for another time! (aka This movie is already 2.5hrs long, you will eventually have a book or a comic book about it, just be patient!)

22 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Get that strawman! Get him good!

I'm not going to claim anyone person is sexist, and haven't.

There are, however, without any shadow of a doubt, people that don't like Rey because they're sexists. But I'm not going to assume who is and isn't. No, I think the vast majority of people who have a problem with Rey but don't have a problem with Luke are biased. Not necessarily biased against women, but biased towards Luke.

Many people have grown up with Luke all their lives. They've been fans long before they began to think critically about characters in movies. Luke is grandfathered in to acceptance, whereas Rey is viewed more critically by a more cynical audience.

And for the record, I have no problem with either character. They're both OP, but Luke is definitely more so. Rey has a learning curve, Luke just excels at anything he needs to.

Luke does not excel at everything he does, and normally gets his butt handed to him a fair bit. Even Yoda shakes his head in disappointment at him when Luke tried to lift the X-Wing up out of the swamp, not to mention he literally loses a hand in a fight.

I like Luke, but in ANH he is whiny. Anakin in TPM is fine if a bit annoying, and I generally don't care for Hayden's performance (or George's direction of him, probably a mix of both) with only Clone Wars' Anakin really getting me to like his character. And Rey I find a bit disappointing as she is overly optimistic and truly excelling at everything without needing to try beforehand.

Ezra, I find him a bit annoying throughout his series, same with Sabine though had she been aged up a couple years I wouldn't have that issue but they felt the need to add an awkward romance between the two. Jyn, is a boring protagonist due to her not being an active protagonist until the end of the film. And Han in Solo is flawed due to going through effectively the same character arc as in ANH, rather than showing how he became the Han we know at the beginning of ANH.

6 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

Sorry, didn’t want to sound aggressive and now that I’ve reread myself, I kinda did, sorry.

But yeah, I fail to see how it could have been brought in the movie in a satisfying manner just to please the most hardcore fans (the one that will read all the books anyway or know someone that will).

At the end of the day, we got a cool chase scene and we know how Rey actually learned to pilot.

I think that when Maz is asked how she got the saber, her answer could apply to a LOT of questions fans have during a Star Wars movie: That is a story for another time! (aka you will eventually have a book or a comic book about it, just be patient!)

Its all good, I know a large number of us disagree with each other, I'd just hope that we can keep it civil.

That was one of the points I disliked too, that bit with Maz, they do the same thing with 3PO pointing out his arm too. Its like 'Spend more money and you might know whats going on!~' I just generally like more self contained stories, or at least ones that aren't expecting me to go out and read lots of ancillary material.

2 hours ago, Sekac said:

Unfortunately, they turned Luke into the biggest Mary Sue in all of Star Wars. But nobody cares because he's a man. Women are not allowed to be inexplicably good at stuff.

46 minutes ago, Sekac said:

There are, however, without any shadow of a doubt, people that don't like Rey because they're sexists. But I'm not going to assume who is and isn't. No, I think the vast majority of people who have a problem with Rey but don't have a problem with Luke are biased. Not necessarily biased against women, but biased towards Luke.

47 minutes ago, Sekac said:

I'm not going to claim anyone person is sexist, and haven't.

1 minute ago, Frimmel said:

Yep, those quotes do prove conclusively that I haven't accused anyone of being sexist. Thank you for taking the time.

Mentioning that there are sexists is not the same as accusing someone of it. Perhaps someone could help explain that to you?

3 hours ago, Frimmel said:

I don't recall hearing one argument that Luke was too inexplicably good at stuff until Rey came along.

True, because we aren’t trying to justify weirdly virulent hate for the OT. We never were.