2 hours ago, Sekac said:

Luke blowing up the Death Star the first time he ever flew a space ship is essentially explained as "flying space ships isn't hard" as well.

Sekac, Luke already knew how to fly. If you want to argue it so much it is the difference between flying a personal/small plane to being put behind the seat of a fighter jet, the overall principles are the same. I get the feeling we are going to keep arguing this point back and forth.

3 hours ago, Red Castle said:

We have Anakin in Episode 1 that learn how to do it during the trip from Coruscant to Naboo and we see that spaceship have automatic pilot, so probably good pilot assisting systems too.

Not sure if that was covered in some novelization or not but I think Lucas put in the Pod Racing scene in TPM as the explanation for Anakin's skills or perhaps more accurately that the force boosted his reflexes enough to do it based off of Qui-gons comment about how humans can't normally do pod racing. Not saying its a great excuse, just one of the reasons I've heard about why that was there and why Anakin could fly.

1 hour ago, Red Castle said:

And I just remembered that there is also Anakin that singlehandedly pilot (or smooth crash) a CIS battlecruiser in Episode 3. How easy should it really be to pilot a battlecruiser alone?

Not landing, crashing with style.

12 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

Not sure if that was covered in some novelization or not but I think Lucas put in the Pod Racing scene in TPM as the explanation for Anakin's skills or perhaps more accurately that the force boosted his reflexes enough to do it based off of Qui-gons comment about how humans can't normally do pod racing. Not saying its a great excuse, just one of the reasons I've heard about why that was there and why Anakin could fly.

I think the Pod race is more to explain that a person can use the Force to boost his reflex, like I said earlier about Obi-Wan in the asteroid field. The moment when Anakin learn how to fly is pretty clear though, it's in the script:

INT SPACE - NABOO SPACECRAFT COCKPIT

ANAKIN stands next to the PILOT, RIC OLIE, pointing to various buttons and gauges.

RIC OLIE: Those are the forward stabalizers.

ANAKIN: And those two control the pitch?

RIC OLIE: You catch on pretty quick.

I think by now you should know that I personnally don't really care about those little details and that's probably why I don't care that Rey knows how to swim or why Rose teaching Finn how to fly during their trip to Canto Bight is enough for me when we only see him crashing a shuttle later on.

But looking at all the past movies, I think that it's getting pretty clear that piloting a spaceship doesn't seems to be that hard.

I just went back and looked at some scenes, and except for the deleted scene, do we actually see Finn pilot a spaceship in the movie? (Not including the Crait battle because that's a speeder, not a spaceship)

When they get to Canto Bight, we see him in a seat, but he doesn't look like he's actually piloting the ship.

When they get to the Supremacy, it's Rose in the pilot seat. Then later it's DJ.

When they crash on Crait, we never see who's piloting, we only know it's him because of the deleting scene.

So really, unless you watched the deleted scene on the Blu-Ray, there is nothing in the movie that shows Finn actually piloting a spaceship (unless I'm forgetting one scene).

So I did some checking and flying a plane may not be all that hard. Here are the requirements to get a sport pilot license. https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/advocacy-briefs/frequently-asked-questions-about-sport-pilot

And the aircraft this permits you to legally operate are clearly identifiable as planes such as a Piper J-2 .

But that is neither dusting crops nor traveling through hyperspace.

20 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

The MCU/DC comparison is a good one especially when the MCU is also a Disney property.

They took their time with the MCU, and it's paid off. They introduced the major players, set up an ongoing story and raised the stakes, and we've been rewarded with a decade of not always perfect, but consistently good films.

DC didn't take their time. They rushed into it, trying to play catch up with the opposition, and the exact same mistakes have been made in the Star Wars sequels. Unfortunately, the stakes were much higher with Star Wars - especially moving into sequel trilogy - as bringing the original trilogy cast back is now no longer an option. Reboots and relaunches can and will always be an option, but the opportunity for Star Wars films with Mark, Harrison and Carrie is now gone forever.

I watched the original Jurassic Park the other night. Hammond's competition was 10 years behind and tried to use a short cut to catch up. It didn't go well for them, with collateral damage being Hammond's entire park.

Hammond's failure in "sparing no expense" when programming the park's automation equating to hiring one lazy programmer (and also not putting locks on the car doors) does seem somewhat analogous to Lucas film rushing into the sequels and handing everything over to big name, uninvested, directors to make or break their franchise.

When Dr. Grant refuses to sign off on the park, Hammond's investors will be super pissed at the wasted money and it'll be back to flea circuses for him, just as Kennedy is in the precarious position of willfully creating the current situation for Lucas Film and we all now wait to see what happens next.

Also, the Raptors are the diehard fans and the cow was TLJ.

34 minutes ago, ViscerothSWG said:

I watched the original Jurassic Park the other night. Hammond's competition was 10 years behind and tried to use a short cut to catch up. It didn't go well for them, with collateral damage being Hammond's entire park.

Hammond's failure in "sparing no expense" when programming the park's automation equating to hiring one lazy programmer (and also not putting locks on the car doors) does seem somewhat analogous to Lucas film rushing into the sequels and handing everything over to big name, uninvested, directors to make or break their franchise.

When Dr. Grant refuses to sign off on the park, Hammond's investors will be super pissed at the wasted money and it'll be back to flea circuses for him, just as Kennedy is in the precarious position of willfully creating the current situation for Lucas Film and we all now wait to see what happens next.

Also, the Raptors are the diehard fans and the cow was TLJ.

Well with that analogy Hammond also is ousted from his company, and his company and others spend the coming years trying to revive what he created usually to disastrous effect.

2 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

Sekac, Luke already knew how   to fly. If you want to argue it so much it is the difference between flying a personal/small plane to being put behind the seat of a fighter jet, the overall principles are the same. I get the feeling we are going to keep  arguing this point back and forth.

That's actually not a close analogy at all. That explains why he's able to fly a T-16 skyhopper and a snowspeeder, but atmospheric piloting =/= space piloting. It's why NASA feels it's necessary to train shuttle pilots, not just "you've heard of pitch, yaw, and roll, correct? And a joystick, you're familiar with those? Great, then strap in buddy, you're ready!"

While this is a similar conversation I've brought up earlier in this thread, my point is different. I'm agreeing with the notion that Star Wars consistently displays piloting as not very hard.

(Except, of course, when Rey struggles and crashes the Falcon several times, but how dare she not crash more ?! ? )

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

That's actually not a close analogy at all. That explains why he's able to fly a T-16 skyhopper and a snowspeeder, but atmospheric piloting =/= space piloting. It's why NASA feels it's necessary to train shuttle pilots, not just "you've heard of pitch, yaw, and roll, correct? And a joystick, you're familiar with those? Great, then strap in buddy, you're ready!"

You do realise Star Wars starfighter combat has nothing in common with real life space flight, right? By design?

4 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

Sekac, Luke already knew how to fly.

Indeed. Luke had actual experience flying. In close quarters and tight spaces, in fact (Beggar's Canyon). And accurately picking out and shooting down small targets (womp rats).

And he still found it difficult to take down a single TIE fighter from the Falcon's turret. He also had to be rescued twice in the Battle of Yavin; first by Wedge, then by Han.

22 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

As for your comment about the fanbase, well that might be true to an extent, I know that Kathleen Kenedy has gone on record to say that girls/women can't relate to Luke which would likely explain why the only male led film/game so far has been Solo.

So, here's what Kathleen Kennedy's apparent target demographic thought of the film:

...great, great job Kathleen. Seriously. Bravo.

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

You do realise Star Wars starfighter    combat has nothing  in common with real life  spa  ce  flight, right? By design?

Haha! By design. Right.

There was George Lucas in 1976 thinking "while I could super easily simulate 0G space combat no problem at all, I shall instead stylistically choose depict space combat using the technology available to me."

I'm certain that was a design choice, not a "I have no" choice.

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

Luke had actual experience        flying. In close quarter   s and tight spaces, in fact (Beggar's Canyon). And accurately picking out and shooting down small targets (womp rats).

And he still found it difficult to  take down  a single TIE fighter from the Falcon's   turret. He also had to be rescued twice in the Battle of    Yavin; first by Wedge, then by Han.

All of which has nothing to do with anything. He still didn't struggle to fly in any way. There was no learning curve whatsoever. Having enemies target you does not mean you're struggling to fly, it means there happen to be enemies around.

Again, I'm agreeing with this statement:

8 hours ago, Red Castle said:

So maybe it's time          to accept that piloting a spaceship (here I don't mean pulling crazy maneuvers but just taking off and doing basic flight patterns) in the Star  War  s universe might no be that hard.   

Nowhere in Star Wars does anyone struggle to fly any spaceship (except Rey, of course).

Luke needing no training with an unfamiliar ship in an unfamiliar environment dovetails perfectly with that theory.

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

So, here's what Kathleen        Kennedy's apparent target demographic thought of the film:  

Yep, 5 people is definitely a healthy sample size of the target demographic. I mean that's got to easily be .00000001% which is totally useable (and probably not cherry picked) information.

The matter is settled at long last.

28 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Haha! By design. Right.

There was George Lucas in 1976 thinking "while I could super easily simulate 0G space combat no problem at all, I shall instead stylistically choose depict space combat using the technology available to me."

I'm certain that was a design choice, not a "I have no" choice.

But it was a design choice. Lucas specifically picked out WWII action scenes and basically said 'we are going to do that' Its why the trench run and the tie fighter attack on the falcon effectively have scenes directly lifted from those films. 2001 A Space Odyssey and Star Trek were already out so he could have opted to go for something more akin to slow moving craft or submarine battles but he choose to instead go with something more action packed.

With that in mind, I think it is a fair comparison to go from a private 'dusting crops' plan to a fighter jet as far as controls go.

35 minutes ago, Sekac said:

All of which has nothing to do with anything. He still didn't struggle to fly in any way. There was no learning curve whatsoever. Having enemies target you does not mean you're struggling to fly, it means there happen to be enemies around.

You can keep making that argument, but the film sets up multiple times throughout the film that he is a pilot, perhaps in his mind he is an above average one but that doesn't change the fact he still is one. Rey doesn't get set up as having those skill outside of a book as Red Castle has been kind enough to make us aware of. Rather than being told and being able to infer it from the film we have to make the assumption that she knows how. Now, who is to blame for this? The script writers for not addressing the matter or making it more organic than a line after she does the act.

And FTS Gecko does have a point about the canons on the Falcon. Luke struggles to shoot down some fighters the first time he uses it, you know because it is the first time he's using it; whereas Rey first time using the guns effectively does a 360 no scope triple kill with her first shot. I'll say it time, and time again, the new Star Wars films suffer from being films that are rushed and need more time having their scripts refined.

48 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

But it was a design  choice. Lucas specifically picked out WWII action scenes and basically said 'we are going to do that' Its why the trench run and the tie fighter attack on the falcon effectively have scenes directly lifted from those  films. 2001 A Space Odyssey and Star Trek were already out so he could have opted to go for something more akin to slow moving craft or submarine battles but he choose to instead go with something more action packe  d  .  

I understand that choosing WWII was a design choice. I also understand he could've ripped off franchises that were similarly incapable of simulating space combat realistically (why would they move like submarines in a frictionless environment?)

The point I made quite clearly was that choosing between WWII dogfights and realistic space combat was not a design choice. He went with his favorite aesthetic from the technology available to him. Technology that was going to make the combat look like it was taking place in atmosphere no matter what aesthetic he chose.

Given how groundbreaking it would be to be the first franchise to show battles that looked like new BSG or The Expanse, is there any doubt that he would've gone for the most visually striking option if it were an option?

56 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

You can keep making that argument       , but the film sets up multiple times throughout the  film that he is a pilot, perhaps in his mind he is an above average one but that doesn  '  t change the fact he still is one.  

Well unfortunately I have to keep making the same point because you keep missing it.

I think you're still hung up on this Rey vs Luke thing and it's throwing you off. So I'll leave their names out to avoid confusion.

There is no reason to believe that flying any ship is difficult in Star Wars. If you can fly one thing, you can fly anything. Can you think of any example in any Star Wars movie where someone struggles to fly a ship that is unfamiliar to them?

Can you think of any example where anyone even suggests that it would be difficult?

51 minutes ago, Sekac said:

I understand that choosing WWII was a design choice. I also understand he could've ripped off franchises that were similarly incapable of simulating space combat realistically (why would they move like submarines in a frictionless environment?)

The point I made quite clearly was that choosing between WWII dogfights and realistic space combat was not a design choice. He went with his favorite aesthetic from the technology available to him. Technology that was going to make the combat look like it was taking place in atmosphere no matter what aesthetic he chose.

Given how groundbreaking it would be to be the first franchise to show battles that looked like new BSG or The Expanse, is there any doubt that he would've gone for the most visually striking option if it were an option?

Straight up this is pure speculation on my part but I imagine he'd still go with the WWII asthetic. In many ways Star Wars is the culmination of Lucas' childhood generally with the use of heroic types and space operas to the more minor things like how pilots will treat their ships like a car they suped up ala Han. But again, pure speculation. And besides, Star Wars was groundbreaking already with how it depicted combat.

54 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Well unfortunately I have to keep making the same point because you keep missing it.

I think you're still hung up on this Rey vs Luke thing and it's throwing you off. So I'll leave their names out to avoid confusion.

There is no reason to believe that flying any ship is difficult in Star Wars. If you can fly one thing, you can fly anything. Can you think of any example in any Star Wars movie where someone struggles to fly a ship that is unfamiliar to them?

Can you think of any example where anyone even suggests that it would be difficult?

Hey, I said we often didn't agree a page or two back.

And based off your argument you really aren't arguing much in favor for Rey who didn't fly a ship but a speeder bike in the film. My complaint isn't that she can't fly it, it isn't that those skills were not established beforehand in the film. TPM and ANH already establish that Anakin and Luke both are force sensitive before they get anywhere near a pilot seat, and both establish that they have some skill with piloting. Granted, Anakin's is with pod racing but as Red Castle pointed out he was taught a bit thanks to Ric Ollie at least with controls and buttons and Anakin still wasn't the best pilot come the end of the film.

If we want to argue that there was no time to establish that she had those skills well, they were the ones telling the story and writing the script they could have established it however they wanted to, they chose not to.

As for an example, possibly Anakin in TPM considering he sort of just bumbles his way through the fight doing spins (because thats a neat trick) and effectively soft crashing inside the Trade Federation's hangar after having the autopilot get him into space. Rey had some difficulty flying the Falcon, or rather taking off, but that is more due to the fact it is a two pilot craft. We do sort of have the line from Han trying to put Luke in his place after they take off from Tatooine when they were trying to escape the 2 ISDs.

8 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

And based off your  argument you really aren't arguing much in favor for Rey  who  didn't fly a ship but a speeder bike in the film  .  

You're right. I'm not talking about Rey at all anymore. I'm saying that piloting in general is a non-issue. That's all. It's the equivalent of driving cars for our universe.

17 hours ago, Red Castle said:

And I just remembered that there is also Anakin that singlehandedly pilot (or smooth crash) a CIS battlecruiser in Episode 3. How easy should it really be to pilot a battlecruiser alone?

Given how incompetent they seem to be at everything , if B-1 battle droids can do it, not very hard.

13 hours ago, Sekac said:

Yep, 5 people is definitely a healthy sample size of the target demographic. I mean that's got to easily be .00000001% which is totally useable (and probably not cherry picked) information.

The matter is settled at long last.

That's right Sekac, you just keep your head right there in the sand. You carry on ignoring the perfectly valid and well reasoned opinions of Star Wars fans of all types and varieties. You ignore those five individuals above (I could quite easily have posted many, many, many more, but five was more than enough to get the point across) and, by association the opinions of those thousands upon thousands of people who have viewed, liked and commented on their respective appraisals on YouTube.

That particular defense method doesn't work very well for ostriches, and it hasn't worked very well for Disney either, as the box office takings for Solo have shown. Solo is a perfectly fine addition to the Star Wars franchise, but unfortunately, the bitter aftertaste TLJ left in a lot of Star Wars fans mouths killed it in the bed, much like Ruin Johnson would have you believe Luke wanted to do to Kylo.

12 hours ago, Sekac said:

You're right. I'm not talking about Rey at all anymore. I'm saying that piloting in general is a non-issue. That's all. It's the equivalent of driving cars for our universe.

But I thought Luke's piloting skills a key pillar in your argument that Luke is a Mary Sue just like Rey? If you kick that out from your already strained argument...

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

That's right Sekac, you just keep your head right there in the sand   . You carry on ignoring the perfectly valid and well  reasoned opinions of Star Wars fans of all types   and  varie   ties.               

Let me make sure I understand you. You believe the word "ignore" to mean "read the opinions of people who disagree with you and respond back to them for pages and pages." I'm sorry, but that's about wrong as you could possibly be.

I could have told you that thousands of fans don't like the new movies posting videos of 5 opinions I'm fully aware exist does nothing to further the conversation.

Nobody could possibly ignore the opinions of people who dislike the movies, because people who dislike the movies are utterly incapable of dropping it.

I get that there are reasons to dislike them. There are things I dislike as well. But on balance, I like them. I get that opinion is offensive to you, but you're doing frankly a terrible job of snuffing it out.

Yes, you can replace Ryan with Ruin. Yes, you can replace Last with Least. Yes, you can call Rey a mouth-breather til the cows come home. I'm extremely proud of you for copying those same hilarious lines that other comedic pioneers have been using for 7 months. Because you know what they say about lame puns "they become funny if you repeat them incessantly for 7 months."

I'm terribly sorry about the awful crime the cast and crew committed upon you. 2 and a half hours wasted, oh man. Well, not to mention all the time whining into the internet like a therapeutic pillow scream.

Are you ever going to see how pathetic it is to go on like this forever?

12 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

Straight up this is pure speculation on my part but I imagine he'd still go with the WWII asthetic. In many ways Star Wars is the culmination of Lucas' childhood generally with the use of heroic types and space operas to the more minor things like how pilots will treat their ships like a car they suped up ala Han. But again, pure speculation. And besides, Star Wars was groundbreaking already with how it depicted combat.

I think you're right with that. I've said elsewhere that this stuff needs to be grounded in things that the audience understands. In 1977 what the audience would understand is WWII dogfights and even WWI dogfights as depicted in various films such as The Blue Max, The Dawn Patrol, Battle of Britain, Flying Tigers, Twelve O'clock High, and Tora! Tora! Tora! among others.

Luke's got one on his tail. The audience instantly understands this as bad even though the pilots are in spaceships and we're a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. We understand the stakes.

20 hours ago, ViscerothSWG said:

I should add, I thought TLJ was a fun adventure movie by itself. But for world building for a sequel and beyond, it was pretty awful.

I'm curious. Why do you think TLJ did an awful job for world building for a sequel and beyond?

I personally think it did a good job, pretty similar to Empire Strike Back in fact.

Not trying to start an argument, just curious about your opinion on the matter.

1 hour ago, Red Castle said:

I'm curious. Why do you think TLJ did an awful job for world building for a sequel and beyond?

I personally think it did a good job, pretty similar to Empire Strike Back in fact.

Not trying to start an argument, just curious about your opinion on the matter.

There is no "world." First Order has no leader and we still don't quite understand where they came from and what they want. New Republic is gone and we never quite knew what they were about. Resistance is barely a gang of hooligans. There are no Jedi. There are no Knights of Ren. The film essentially took place in space ships and on an island there is no reason to travel back to.

We got Canto Bight as a sort of Monacco or Vegas for war profiteers and corporation bogey-men but we've never gone into any of that sort of thing in any of the movies. There hasn't been any sort of talk about how resources are gotten and shared or traded or just taken maybe. Outside stuff gets into that but except for the dreaded taxation of trade routes the economy is an enigma from what the films have shown.

The Force was turned into actively keeping down or going against or trying to balance or something whichever side dark or light is ascendant. The film was quite nihilistic in that respect. I got the sense of "why fight" the Force will just lift someone else up. It actually I thought rather made an argument in favor of midichlorians being a thing. The whole idea of Jedi and Padawans and an order of knights wielding might for right and protecting the weak is kind of out the window.

They broke hyperspace with the tracker and making it a weapon. So they've killed the device that lets the rag tag band hide from the big bad galaxy spanning fascists and hit and run and steal stuff from them or hamper them.

They made a mess of what the starships operate on. They think lifeboats are the same as ships. They don't seem to have really laid out a set of rules for their magic or their technology. How do you use The Force? You just use the Force.

The universe seemed quite content to let the fascists just have their way making The Resistance petulant terrorists and not revolutionaries. I guess you could call them misguided on a good day.

4 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

I'm curious. Why do you think TLJ did an awful job for world building for a sequel and beyond?

I personally think it did a good job, pretty similar to Empire Strike Back in fact.

Not trying to start an argument, just curious about your opinion on the matter.

I'm just not excited for the next chapter in a now convoluted mess of a narrative. In the OT, after ep2, the heroes were in trouble but the greater climate remained mostly unchanged. We knew the landscape and where things were heading. This time the heroes are all safe with only factional infighting and instability to look forward to. We expect resolution to somehow mirror RotJ, but elements of TLJ already did that. If they're really closing the trilogy storyline then they're going to be packing a lot of exposition into the start of the film to fix it.

The phantom menace nearly ruined the force trying to ground it in reality with bacteria, but it's now a full blown deus ex machina. (Aside from Luke's projection scene which was badass.)

Finn's flip from coward to hero felt like a turn on a dime. Phasma being meaningless probably hurt that aspect overall. Traitor Trooper really should have been Phasma. I've lost interest in his character and almost expect him to wear Phasma-esque hero armor in the next movie at this point.

Was Poe just a pilot. Or part of the command structure. If the latter, he should have been told the plan. He wasn't going to spill the beans. If the former, he sure didn't act like it.

So the resistance command structure is a mess. Just like the new republic that lost everything in one shot.

The incompetence of the first order in dealing with the Finn at the start, and the sand skimmers later is disappointing. Finn dragged a large unconscious lady across a desert that leaves a clear trail behind you, with no cover across a ridiculous distance, and showed up at the door safely. I can't take either side seriously.

Rey has the jedi books now so she'll have any power she needs at any given time going forward based on TLJ while kylo has no teacher now. Their next fight must be one-sided... Unless they become force penpals and the next movie goes all romeo and juliet.

At least the war profiteers in space vegas seem to know what they're doing. But trying to interject trade negotiations went over so well in the prequels that they need to drop that subject. A third faction coming to power in the current incompetence vacuum probably actually makes sense. But introducing and wrapping it all up in 1 movie seems implausible.

12 minutes ago, ViscerothSWG said:

The phantom menace nearly ruined the force trying to ground it in reality with bacteria, but it's now a full blown deus ex machina.

I find it amusing that TLJ really makes an argument for the series needing midichlorians.

With just the OT you don't need to dive too deep into why Luke and Ben can use the Force and Han and Chewie can't. It isn't that important. But if you're going to have 10,000 Jedi Knights and there will be children taken to a temple (as much to protect them and others the way Professor X does with his school) to be trained you kind of need a "why." If you're going to have broader stories and stories beyond just those of a strong force user and his son, there needs to be a bit more development of what the Force is.

Midichlorians allow the Force to have their own will and their own sense of balance and such and promote the dark when the light is pre-dominant and vice-versa. The deus ex machina really is a deus.

Midichlorians would explain why Kylo has so much "raw power." It takes some of the sham out of Rey's training if she has lots of midichlorians.

11 hours ago, ViscerothSWG said:

I'm just not excited for the next chapter in a now convoluted mess of a narrative. In the OT, after ep2, the heroes were in trouble but the greater climate remained mostly unchanged. We knew the landscape and where things were heading. This time the heroes are all safe with only factional infighting and instability to look forward to. We expect resolution to somehow mirror RotJ, but elements of TLJ already did that. If they're really closing the trilogy storyline then they're going to be packing a lot of exposition into the start of the film to fix it.

The phantom menace nearly ruined the force trying to ground it in reality with bacteria, but it's now a full blown deus ex machina. (Aside from Luke's projection scene which was badass.)

Finn's flip from coward to hero felt like a turn on a dime. Phasma being meaningless probably hurt that aspect overall. Traitor Trooper really should have been Phasma. I've lost interest in his character and almost expect him to wear Phasma-esque hero armor in the next movie at this point.

Was Poe just a pilot. Or part of the command structure. If the latter, he should have been told the plan. He wasn't going to spill the beans. If the former, he sure didn't act like it.

So the resistance command structure is a mess. Just like the new republic that lost everything in one shot.

The incompetence of the first order in dealing with the Finn at the start, and the sand skimmers later is disappointing. Finn dragged a large unconscious lady across a desert that leaves a clear trail behind you, with no cover across a ridiculous distance, and showed up at the door safely. I can't take either side seriously.

Rey has the jedi books now so she'll have any power she needs at any given time going forward based on TLJ while kylo has no teacher now. Their next fight must be one-sided... Unless they become force penpals and the next movie goes all romeo and juliet.

At least the war profiteers in space vegas seem to know what they're doing. But trying to interject trade negotiations went over so well in the prequels that they need to drop that subject. A third faction coming to power in the current incompetence vacuum probably actually makes sense. But introducing and wrapping it all up in 1 movie seems implausible.

Thanks for the answer.

I personnally think that the ending of Episode 8 is pretty similar to the ending of episode 5. Both movie start with an evacuation of a base. The difference here is that in Episode 5, the rebels escape and we don't really know the damage that has been done, they're certainly not stronger than at the start of the movie. In the case of Episode 8, the Resistance is now crippled. At the end of the movie, we know that they have to rebuild almost from scratch and go look for the help of their allies. So, while our heroes are all safe and nobody is in carbonite, we know that the fight is far from over. But what we got in the movie is all heroes finally getting their resolve. Finn finally joined the Resistance, Poe will now be a leader and Rey has finally turned her back to Kylo and embraced her Force powers. The ending with Rey asking Leia how they can rebuild from there with the broken lightsaber in her hand and looking at what's left of the resistance kinda gave me the same vibe of Luke standing at the side of Leia while looking at the Millenium Falcon at the end of Episode 5.

From my point of view, I don't think we are going to get a resolution to somehow mirror RotJ. Sure, it's probably gonna be the Resistance getting rid of the First Order and bringing peace yet again in the Galaxy, but I don't think that's what the Sequel Trilogy is really about. I think it's about wrapping up the legacy of the Skywalkers: The Prequel was about Anakin and his fall to the dark side, the Original trilogy was about Luke and his hero's journey, and now the sequel is about Ben and his villain's journey.

From my point of view, that's what those movies are really about. In Episode 7, we start with a Kylo Ren that has no control over his emotions and that actually wants to fall to the dark side. What is interesting is that in all the other movies, falling to the dark side is considered a fatality. Think about what Vader said to Luke 'It is too late for me, son'. That's the kind of words you say when you know deep down that the path you chose is the wrong one, but are not strong enough to come back from it. In the case of Kylo, he actually try to fight the pull from the light. He is actually fighting to fully embrace the dark side. Then Snoke ask him to kill his father as his final push to the dark side. And he does it, he's taking one of his final step at the end of the first movie. Then we get to Episode 8, which start his story with Snoke making him look weak and not caring one bit that he actually killed his father, making it sound as if suddenly it was an error to do it, since it unbalanced him so much that he got beaten by a girl who never held a lightsaber. That's no wonder that later, when he gets the chance to do it, he actually kill Snoke. That I think, was simply brilliant. From the start of episode 7, we have the impression that Snoke is Emperor V2, that he's gonna be the big bad guy to kill at the end of Episode 9 (to mirror Episode 6). But no, Snoke was not the big bad guy after all, he was just a part of Kylo Ren's journey to the dark side. The real bad guy of the Sequel Trilogy is Kylo Ren. And that's a wonderful thing. Because all the conversation he had with Rey during episode 8 also humanized him. I think it's the most multi dimensional villain of all the Star Wars movies, because he's not just a villain, he's an actual character. Now, Episode 9 will finish his story. What can we expect? He will probably die. But will he come back from the dark side like Vader did. Or is he really too consumed by it? How did his duel with Luke really affected him? When he hold the dice at the end and is looking at Rey, I think it's the first time that we see a real loneliness in him. How will the Skywalker legacy end?

As for the Jedi books, I don't think they contain powers. I don't see them as special spellbooks. I think they are history books depicting the beginning of the Jedi Order and what it is at its core so that she could potencially restart the Jedi Order. And with how Episode 8 end, with the kid with the broom showing us that there is other force users, that might be where this is going.

Another thing to consider is that the big difference between the Empire and the First Order is that when Episode 4 begin, the Empire is already in power since many years. When Episode 7 begin, the First Order is making its big push for power. So while they have destroyed the symbol of the Republic, there is a LOT of planets with their own planetary defense that is probably ready to fight. Meanwhile, there is probably also a lot of sympathizer that will be willing to join them. The First Order is the Empire trying to retake the power. With the Resistance crippled and the First Order just beginning their push for power, I'm actually curious to see what will be the setting in Episode 9. How many time will have pass between Episode 8 and 9?

38 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

Another thing to consider is that the big difference between the Empire and the First Order is that when Episode 4 begin, the Empire is already in power since many years. When Episode 7 begin, the First Order is making its big push for power. So while they have destroyed the symbol of the Republic, there is a LOT of planets with their own planetary defense that is probably ready to fight. Meanwhile, there is probably also a lot of sympathizer that will be willing to join them. The First Order is the Empire trying to retake the power. With the Resistance crippled and the First Order just beginning their push for power, I'm actually curious to see what will be the setting in Episode 9. How many time will have pass between Episode 8 and 9?

That will be interesting to see, I personally feel that TLJ does not feel like a part 2 of 3, more like a part 2 of 4 or more just how it sort of leaves a sense of stuff really needing to be rebuilt for the next film as it is. Hopefully, they won't treat it like the 30 year timespan and leave a completely blank space for someone else to fill in. Odds are the FO will be defeated by the end, and we are left wondering how the FO was able to completely take over the galaxy in record time, and then end up losing what they got in the next film.

11 hours ago, Frimmel said:

I find it amusing that TLJ really makes an argument for the series needing midichlorians.

With just the OT you don't need to dive too deep into why Luke and Ben can use the Force and Han and Chewie can't. It isn't that important. But if you're going to have 10,000 Jedi Knights and there will be children taken to a temple (as much to protect them and others the way Professor X does with his school) to be trained you kind of need a "why." If you're going to have broader stories and stories beyond just those of a strong force user and his son, there needs to be a bit more development of what the Force is.

Midichlorians allow the Force to have their own will and their own sense of balance and such and promote the dark when the light is pre-dominant and vice-versa. The deus ex machina really is a deus.

Midichlorians would explain why Kylo has so much "raw power." It takes some of the sham out of Rey's training if she has lots of midichlorians.

I always felt that Luke had to somehow teach people 'the Force' without a real understanding. Anakin was strong, Luke was strong, and so was Leia - we got that from the OT. I think a little bit of the Zahn novels should have made it in. We know that Luke started training people, because Kylo Ren wasn't his only student. Presumably, in the 20 years of Kylo growing up, being identified as Force Sensitive, and finally trained (in some dodgy way), others would have also been trained.

Also, the idea is that everyone has a connection with the Force, but only a chosen few can actually use it to some effect.

Luke had nothing. Where there was a council, a structured schooling system, and many Masters for those being trained to receive personalised training, Luke had wing it.

50 years prior to Luke, the Council would have used a number of specialised sensors to identify Force Sensitive children, who then would have been tested - Anakin was told this when he was found. any equipment like that would have been stolen/confiscated by Palps and his crew, then probably destroyed when they knew the jig was up.

Leia had no training, but (from the Zahn novels) she couldn't be broken by Vader and Tarkin when captured because her Power had manifested in 'that way' to defend herself mentally. (they missed some good flashback opportunity by not showing Leia being trained).

I summon the spirit of Knights of the Old Republic: that character (and we know who I'm talking about) could understand everyone, but we accept it as 'the way of the Force'. So too with Rey.

Luke had/has a Love/Hate relationship with the Force, it connects him to those he loves, but it has taken everything away from him at the same time . We know why Yoda destroyed the Jedi 'Library' right? (trying to not give spoilers)

Luke from here on, might have more freedom now to train and counsel Rey.

There are flaws and there are holes, and any movie that requires the fanbase to explain whys and wherefores really hasn't been made well. I would have loved to have seen a Joss Whedon Star Wars trilogy.

I still haven't seen Solo, but I'm willing to watch it with as clean a slate as possible when I do.