6 hours ago, AwesomeJedi said:

Why are you guys being so rude?

Because they definitly aren't part of a problem and would never spew abuse into the general direction of specific people...definitly just critiquing a movie, not pushing an agenda!

Should I remind everyone that there is a Report fonction on this forum? If you see a post that you consider offensive, please report it.

On 7/8/2018 at 10:13 AM, Admiral Deathrain said:

Because they definitly aren't part of a problem and would never spew abuse into the general direction of specific people...definitly just critiquing a movie, not pushing an agenda!

It's pretty amazing to see that even the most ardent of apologists seem totally incapable of defending The Least Jedi on it's own merits*. No, it's so much easier just to label the people who see it for the hack job that it is as "haters" - or worse, as we see quoted above. Labelling people for their opinions now are we @Admiral Deathrain ? Tut tut. Becoming the very thing you profess to despise.

There's no agendas here, I'm afraid; just sadness at a complete and total waste of an opportunity that people were waiting for decades to finally arrive. Well, maybe sadness combined with the merest touch of amusement at the mental hoops some people will jump through in a vain attempt to convince themselves that the absolutely shocking writing and project management on display in the sequels has led to anything more substantial than more cash (in the short term, at least) for the Mouse.

*actually, on second thoughts, I can't really blame anyone for that, can I?

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

It's pretty amazing to see that even the most ardent of apologists seem totally incapable of defending The Least Jedi on it's own merits*.

I think it is a bunch of folks getting their first experience with cognitive dissonance and not just about liking a movie that isn't good but about other bigger things as well.

@FTS Gecko I wasn't talking about people who dislike TLJ in general, rather about you and that conspiracy theorist specificaly, because you take offense to hypotheticaly being labeled as abusive and then act, well...refer back to Awesomejedis post for that. I recognize that the group of 'toxic', abusive 'fans' in the Star Wars community is not the same as the group who dislikes any subset of Star Wars movies. I will always defend the right of the latter to exist and be recognized as part of the Star Wars community, while telling the former to get lost.

Now if you care why I like (like, not total out of control fanboy love if you want to put that into my mouth) TLJ, this is it: It does not have any worse plot inconsistencies than any of the previous movies, everything that happens can be explained with the narrative tools of the universe. It did a great job with old man Luke and his relationship to Rey ('can you feel the force' is honestly my favourite comedic moment in a star wars movie because it shows how much of Yoda is in Luke). It took Kylo Ren from a servicable antagonist to one that is very interesting by humanising him through the interactions with Rey (who also got a lot of characterisation out of those scenes), but then also making him pretty much irredeemable through his actions. All of the protagonist characters failed in believable ways, which developed Poe quite a bit and sets up Rey, Finn, and Rose for the next movie. The point where it left off is exciting, because I have no idea how they are supposed to clean up this mess. Complaining that Rey is a Mary Sue is pointless in my opinion. First of all the term is basicaly meaningless unless you use the initial definition which isn't applicable at all. Then that viewpoint relies a lot on viewing the force like an RPG stat, which I disagree with on a fundamental level (it is not a power). Finally even if you just object to Rey being powerful without having 'worked' for it, if that were a bad thing per se, that would mean that you could, for example, not write an interesting Superman-story either, which is wrong, else the character wouldn't have survived for so long. I like how TLJ started Rey on to the path of not just being a puppet for the force, but rather someone who can interact with it.

Visually the movie worked very well with two exceptions for me: Canto Bight was too CG heavy and Mary Poppins Leia, while a neat idea in general (Leia using the force was important after the scenes in RotJ), looked atrocious.

What TLJ does have is a tone problem. Too many comedic scenes fall flat because of their timing and an oversaturation. Again Canto Bight suffers more than the rest of the film here.

Overall I apreciate TLJ for the risks it successfully took and am looking forward to episode IX. There you have it, TLJ as I see it, on its own merits. Feel free to disagree as you wish.

9 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I think it is a bunch of folks getting their first experience with cognitive dissonance and not just about liking a movie that isn't good but about other bigger things as well.

Yes, because cognitive dissonance is the only possible explanation for having a different opinion than you.

That sounds like the kind of thing an intelligent person would posit.

13 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

There's no agendas here, I'm afraid; just sadness at a complete and total waste of an opportunity that people were waiting for decades to finally arrive. Well, maybe sadness combined with the merest touch of amusement at the mental hoops some people will jump through in a vain attempt to convince themselves that the absolutely shocking writing and project management on display in the sequels has led to anything more substantial than more cash (in the short term, at least) for the Mouse.

Oh, Disney is profiting the heck out of the new stuff but seem to overall be making more with Marvel. Star Wars isn't their crown jewel, and it already looks like they might be realizing they can't pump these out once a year whereas Marvel can easily pump out 3 to 4 and still bring them tons of cash. This is partially due to the breadth of what Marvel has to pull from and likely creative forces at the studios. I don't think Disney really is all that much guiding where the films go, just distributing them but if Star Wars films have more flops like Solo I could see them becoming more interfering so as to prevent themselves from wasting/losing money on films and hurting their stock values.

12 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Complaining that  Rey is a Mary Sue is pointless in my opinion. First of all the term is basicaly meaningless unless you use the initial definition which isn't applicable at all. Then that viewpoint relies a lot on viewing the force like an RPG stat, which I disagree with on a fundamental level (it is not a power). Finally even if you just object to Rey being powerful without having 'worked' for it, if  that were a bad thing per se, that would mean that you could, for example, not write an interesting Superman-story either, which is wrong, else the character wouldn't have survived for so long. I like how TLJ started Rey on to the path of not just being a puppet for the force, but rather someone who can interact with it. 

What TLJ does have is a tone problem. Too many comedic scenes fall flat because of their timing and an oversaturation. Again Canto Bight suffers more than the rest of the film here.

Overall I apreciate TLJ for the risks it successfully took and am looking forward to episode IX. There you have it, TLJ as I see it, on its own merits. Feel free to disagree as you wish.

With your Superman analogy I think it would be more applicable to imagine having it where we as an audience have been given Batman followed by the Arrow which is then followed up with Superman. That is the kind of shift there that can lead to it being a bit, harder to swallow. Rey is very much a different kind of hero in the films. I'll try to withhold some judgment on her until after Episode 9, but I personally haven't found her all that compelling as of yet. And you are very right, there are many good Superman stories to tell, its just a shame DC has elected to not really bring them to screen in a satisfactory way since the Richard Donner film(s).

I think you are partially right, as to TLJ's problems. It does suffer a tonal problem with comedy, almost as if they were trying to make it a marvel film but couldn't get the balance right and completely ruin their villains in the beginning by defanging them in a comedic sense while the rest of the film requires you to treat them as a threat. (If you start a film with the Spingtime for Hitler song only to switch to Saving Private Ryan you'll give your audience tonal whiplash.) The film also suffers from is always subverting itself. I sincerely mean it, watch the film and scenes are generally either played for laughs or to be subversive if not both in some scenes. And lastly, it sort of feels like Rian Johnson told the story he wanted to rather than a middle chapter for what JJ set up which based off Daisy Ridley's account of him tossing out the original plans is pretty much what happened.

12 hours ago, Sekac said:

Yes, because cognitive dissonance is the only possible explanation for having a different opinion than you.

That sounds like the kind of thing an intelligent person would posit.

Yea, kind of got to agree with Sekac here, and we most often disagree. Haha. Look, people have all sorts of opinions, and can like all kinds of things, but just because they like something doesn't make them wrong to like it.

Sure, I REALLY dislike TLJ, but that doesn't mean that others shouldn't be allowed to enjoy it. I just want the films to more universally be enjoyable...and not go on a murder bender for the OT cast. And at the very least, those of us who do hate the new canon can at least still have the EU/Legends to enjoy. Maybe after episode 9 they can move to a Star Wars film every two years to allow for the creators to at least have more time to script their films better.

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

Yes, because cognitive dissonance is the only possible explanation for having a different opinion than you.

That sounds like the kind of thing an intelligent person would posit.

I was not attempting to explain why someone might have a different opinion than me. I was positing a possible explanation for folks being unable to defend TFA and TLJ on the film's own merits.

2 hours ago, Frimmel said:

I think it is a bunch of folks getting their first experience with cognitive dissonance and not just about liking a movie that isn't good but about other bigger things as well.

Occam's Razor it; the obvious answer is that that the film has no merits.

Or, at least few enough that they're comparatively worthless when weighed against the film's obvious, glaring problems.

1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

I was not attempting    to explain why someone might have a different opinion than me. I was positing a possible explanation for folks being unable to defend TFA and  TLJ on the film's own merits. 

And yet, people have defended it many times and in many places, including this thread.

If you're going to choose to pretend that those defenses don't exist, then I suppose you're right, cognitive dissonance is a plausible explanation. You're just confused about who's suffering from it.

17 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Occam's Razor it; the obvious     answer is that that the film has no merits.  

I don't think you understand how Occam's Razor works...(hint: it doesn't begin with ignoring any evidence contrary to the conclusion you want to be reached).

Such a heated debated going on here. Both sides of the field trying to prove their belief is correct.

I will say TLJ has done considerable damage to the fanbase which in turn has weakened the franchise. Maybe that was the goal for Rian Johnson the entire time. Remove the older, die-hard portion from the audience.

As for my stance, TLJ is little more then a retelling of ESB which followed a retelling of ANH. It tried to reboot the universe with similar OT stories by killing the classic characters for the new uninteresting characters to take center stage. The mixing of Marvel humor, reused stories, shallow characters left the fanbase at its own throat.

Now for which side is right? Episode 9 will decide that on it's ticket sales.

PS. Luke isn't a Gary Stu. He failed as much as he succeeded. He needed to be bailed out in all three movies.

39 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Occam's Razor it; the obvious answer is that that the film has no merits.

Or, at least few enough that they're comparatively worthless when weighed against the film's obvious, glaring problems.

Yes, but the films having no merit only explains why they can't make an argument on the merits. The films having no merit doesn't explain why they can't go, "Yes, the films are garbage but I enjoy them anyway." That's what I'm trying to get at with the idea of cognitive dissonance playing a hand here.

3 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

Oh, Disney is profiting the heck out of the new stuff but seem to overall be making more with Marvel. Star Wars isn't their crown jewel, and it already looks like they might be realizing they can't pump these out once a year whereas Marvel can easily pump out 3 to 4 and still bring them tons of cash. This is partially due to the breadth of what Marvel has to pull from and likely creative forces at the studios. I don't think Disney really is all that much guiding where the films go, just distributing them but if Star Wars films have more flops like Solo I could see them becoming more interfering so as to prevent themselves from wasting/losing money on films and hurting their stock values.

With your Superman analogy I think it would be more applicable to imagine having it where we as an audience have been given Batman followed by the Arrow which is then followed up with Superman. That is the kind of shift there that can lead to it being a bit, harder to swallow. Rey is very much a different kind of hero in the films. I'll try to withhold some judgment on her until after Episode 9, but I personally haven't found her all that compelling as of yet. And you are very right, there are many good Superman stories to tell, its just a shame DC has elected to not really bring them to screen in a satisfactory way since the Richard Donner film(s)..

The MCU/DC comparison is a good one especially when the MCU is also a Disney property.

They took their time with the MCU, and it's paid off. They introduced the major players, set up an ongoing story and raised the stakes, and we've been rewarded with a decade of not always perfect, but consistently good films.

DC didn't take their time. They rushed into it, trying to play catch up with the opposition, and the exact same mistakes have been made in the Star Wars sequels. Unfortunately, the stakes were much higher with Star Wars - especially moving into sequel trilogy - as bringing the original trilogy cast back is now no longer an option. Reboots and relaunches can and will always be an option, but the opportunity for Star Wars films with Mark, Harrison and Carrie is now gone forever.

49 minutes ago, Zarovichx said:

Such a heated debated going on here. Both sides of the field trying to prove their belief is correct.

I will say TLJ has done considerable damage to the fanbase which in turn has weakened the franchise. Maybe that was the goal for Rian Johnson the entire time. Remove the older, die-hard portion from the audience.

No need to try and prove beliefs; the simple fact that we're having hearted debates is evidence enough of the sequel trilogy's failure. If the writing and storytelling had been delivered in a competent manner, if the groundwork has been done, if there had been a clear and consistent vision from the start, if time had been taken , then this debate wouldn't be happening, or at least at nowhere near this level.

As you say; TLJ has done serious damage to the fanbase. The divides are worse than those caused by the prequel trilogy. at best, it's a hugely profitable yet deeply flawed and incredibly divisive film. At worst; well, as I said, it's a hack job.

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

I don't think you understand how Occam's Razor works...(hint: it doesn't begin with ignoring any evidence contrary to the conclusion you want to be reached).

Oh, I understand how Occam's Razor works; you may need a refresher course on the concept of humour, however.

12 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Oh, I understand     how Occam's Razor works; you may need a refresher  course on the concept of humour, however.

Oh, were you planning on trying it out at some point? I'll keep my eyes peeled.

Or wait, is this what constitutes a joke in your mind?

5 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

It's  pretty amazing to see that even the most ardent of apologists seem totally  incapable of defending The Least Jedi on it's own merits   *   

I mean you did turn Last into Least so I guess that technically counts. And boy, did that laughing emoji reactions pile up after that humdinger!

Looks like every single person reading this thread could use a refresher on humor.

Wanna apply Occam's Razor to that scenario?

48 minutes ago, Zarovichx said:

Such a heated debated going on here. Both sides of the field trying to prove their belief is correct.

I will say TLJ has done considerable damage to the fanbase which in turn has weakened the franchise. Maybe that was the goal for Rian Johnson the entire time. Remove the older, die-hard portion from the audience.

As for my stance, TLJ is little more then a retelling of ESB which followed a retelling of ANH. It tried to reboot the universe with similar OT stories by killing the classic characters for the new uninteresting characters to take center stage. The mixing of Marvel humor, reused stories, shallow characters left the fanbase at its own throat.

Now for which side is right? Episode 9 will decide that on it's ticket sales.

PS. Luke isn't a Gary Stu. He failed as much as he succeeded. He needed to be bailed out in all three movies.

Add in issues all the issues that Star Wars is facing at the moment and it makes it worse. It really is going through a rough patch right now. I can only hope it is temporary.

- Star Wars Battlefront 2 with its Lootbox scandal that was very public and the fact that EA and Dice have more or less gotten to the point of abandoning the game with only the meagerost of updates.

- Toy sales being far below estimates leading to tons of stuff wasting away in stock. Based on videos from closing Toys R Us they still had plenty of stock, some unopened from TFA and Rogue One, that they were trying to get rid of.

- Behind the scenes scandals and drama, the Media is having a hayday with all the trouble there, just look at all the reports that came out about Solo, and directors being let go. Its stuff like that which lowers viewer and audience confidence in a product which will continue to hurt sales.

- Attack on Star Wars fans. Look, yes there is a toxic group of fans out there attacking actors over twitter and the like, and that's wrong but generally the media throws this back in the face of all Star Wars fans rather than just some. Surprisingly, yelling at people that they are X'ist' time after time doesn't exactly make them want to continue to be associated with it or causes them to act aggressive/rude to spite those throwing those terms at them.

I mean, it seems like Star Wars has stayed in the bad press pretty much all the way since November of last year to well now. Disney can't be liking that, they want to have their product be wholesome and not having tons of controversy so as to get more people to see their films and visit their parks.

As for your comment about the fanbase, well that might be true to an extent, I know that Kathleen Kenedy has gone on record to say that girls/women can't relate to Luke which would likely explain why the only male led film/game so far has been Solo.

@Animewarsdude that video game thing is a real problem. The prequel era had some excellent games coming out, so even those that didn't enjoy the movies had Star Wars media they could enjoy. In this ST era it is like the movies or don't interact with Star Wars in an enjoyable way, which is a definite flaw in Lucasfilms concept.

Also kind of funny how I expressed my feelings about TLJ as a movie and then promtly get ignored by the 'you can't defend TLJ on its merits as a movie' crowd, or rather duo in favour of continuing that narrative. Huh.

35 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

@Animewarsdude that video game thing is a real problem. The prequel era had some excellent games coming out, so even those that didn't enjoy the movies had Star Wars media they could enjoy. In this ST era it is like the movies or don't interact with Star Wars in an enjoyable way, which is a definite flaw in Lucasfilms concept.

The biggest issue with the games at the moment is Disney having given the exclusive licence to EA, which has resulted in what a grand total of 2 games which were part of the same franchise that were not well received compared to their originals and a slew of money hungry mobile titles? I think that deal expires in 2020 so hopefully we can start to see some improvement there.

But in comparison to the ST the PT from ATOC to ROTJ had a huge market push for the whole multimedia campaign that gave us a strong comic line, good books, animated shorts, and games. Best of all Lucas had input into a fair bit of it. Yes, I know not everyone might like what he did with the PT but I argue Lucas is an AMAZING idea guy, he just usually isn't the best at being able to execute it.

Just think about it, yes we get some good books like the new Thrawn novels, Lost Stars, Phasma, but unlike the the multi-media project the ST hasn't had that kind of direct narrative build up through multiple pieces building to something. The games so far have Battlefront which lacks a story, Battlefront 2 which has a rather short story that is the usual Imperial to Rebel story with a VERY short Resistance add on that doesn't add a whole lot to the ST era story, and the upcoming game is going to be another ROTS to ANH era stories with a order 66 survivor being hunted down. The comics have mostly been focused around the OT era, a few dabbling in the Clone Wars, and a handful of stories like Poe and Phasma dealing with ST stuff. The books likewise have been pretty heavily focused on the OT era with all of the ST lead in stuff mostly focused on post OT stuff like the Aftermath series or been focused on near ST stuff I think being at most 5 years before TFA starts. I'm sure Red Castle can correct me there. This leaves us with a huge span of time that isn't accounted for or represented between ROTJ and TFA nor a strong push for where the ST story is even going like the multi-media project was able to do with the Clone Wars.

We are just getting the Resistance show this year, which will be covering the period of before TFA. Now, I don't like the ST setting of resetting to the OT dynamic (might have mentioned it once or twice here) but can you all not tell me how awesome it would be that instead of having these before TFA stories that we instead ended up getting stuff set between 8 and 9? Rey, Finn, Poe and the rest have been critically undeveloped and could very well use books, comics, and a show to give them more depth and hype us up for the events that are to take place in episode 9. Build up the audience's attachment to these characters, flesh them out, *cough* show training *cough*, and shows us how menacing a threat the FO can be. Show us the state of the galaxy, how is it reacting to the FO, are they fighting back, have they given up and let the FO take over with the Resistance having to rebuild and find new allies? Of course, this likely is just not a possibility due to the tighter schedule between the new saga films and the very much on the fly writing that we are being given, heck 9's shooting script was supposedly finished in February with filming likely starting this month.

Yeah, novels and comics just don't have the mass market appeal video games have. EAs exclusivity deal is the one massive mistake Lucasfilm made with the IP. Ideally they'd handle it on a game by game basis like GW do, that leads to the greatest variety and makes misses matter a lot less (sure there is a million of horrible half-assed boardgame ports, but there also is Vermintide and Total War Warhammer). EA isn't interested in medium size games, they only want all of the money. A lot of money isn't enough for them, they need all of it. This is just detrimental to the games quality and volume of releases. Ugh EA. Too bad that deal is set for the entire era of sequel movies being released, it really hurts the property.

4 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Also kind of funny how I expressed my feelings about TLJ as a movie and then promtly get ignored by the 'you can't defend TLJ on its merits as a movie' crowd, or rather duo in favour of continuing that narrative. Huh.

Oh, don't worry, you haven't been ignored. I'm compiling a response. (but Jesus, where to start?!)

11 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

I know that Kathleen Kenedy has gone on record to say that girls/women can't relate to Luke which would likely explain why the only male led film/game so far has been Solo.

She actually said that? Wow.

Sounds more like she can't relate to the fan base, to be perfectly honest.

On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 2:53 AM, Red Castle said:

Ahaha! I know you won't like my answer but in the book it's actually explained that Rose teached Finn how to pilot during their trip to Canto Bight.

Really? How long is the trip supposed to be?

...And isn't she a flight engineer, not a pilot (albeit that that shuttle pod is hardly a fighter)?

I hadn't noticed that oddness (like Rey knowing how to swim) - there was a deleted scene involving Finn and Rey jacking an Upsilon shuttle, too, and I'm pretty sure he was in the pilot's seat of that. I should have wondered about that in the speeder scene, too.

A lot of the problems all boil back down to the 'no time has passed' issue; put in a few months to a year off-screen delay and you can explain and accept pretty much any discontinuity in increased skills, or 'acquired resources' (like the bombers)

It's much the same with Ezra; he starts out 'what's the force' and goes through a significant amount of time as seriously inept and 'grows up', much like you watch Ahsoka do in clone wars. This is something you can do in a series, and are less able to do in a film, though.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Really? How long is the trip supposed to be?

...And isn't she a flight engineer, not a pilot (albeit that that shuttle pod is hardly a fighter)?

I hadn't noticed that oddness (like Rey knowing how to swim) - there was a deleted scene involving Finn and Rey jacking an Upsilon shuttle, too, and I'm pretty sure he was in the pilot's seat of that. I should have wondered about that in the speeder scene, too.

A couple hours I think, I don't remember them specifically answering that question.

I think the question at this point should be: How hard is it really to pilot a starship in the Star Wars universe?

We have Anakin in Episode 1 that learn how to do it during the trip from Coruscant to Naboo and we see that spaceship have automatic pilot, so probably good pilot assisting systems too.

We have Obi-Wan in Episode 2 that have no trouble navigating an asteroid field during his chase with Jango.

We have Rey pulling some crazy maneuver over Jakku with the Falcon in Episode 7.

And now we have Finn piloting the shuttle in Episode 8 with little training (like Anakin in Episode 1).

So maybe it's time to accept that piloting a spaceship (here I don't mean pulling crazy maneuvers but just taking off and doing basic flight patterns) in the Star Wars universe might no be that hard.

I also don't remember about the deleted scene invloving Rey and Finn jacking a Shuttle, I'll have to check them again. I remember about the speeder chase though. But I personnally consider speeders more like cars. I don't know how to fly a plane, but I still know how to drive a car.

7 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

I also don't remember about the deleted scene invloving Rey and Finn jacking a Shuttle, I'll have to check them again.

Sorry, that was meant to be Rose and Finn. Typo. It's a TLJ deleted scene.

8 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

We have Obi-Wan in Episode 2 that have no trouble navigating an asteroid field during his chase with Jango.

Obi-Wan specifically, for all that he hates flying, is at this point a fully qualified knight. Given the timespan between him being...well...TPM Anakin's age and AOTC, along with the sort of stuff you see and imagine jedi doing as their day job, assuming some 'proper' pilot training is not unreasonable.

10 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

I think the question at this point should be: How hard is it really to pilot a starship in the Star Wars universe?

As I said, I'm not throwing toys out of pram about it, but it's another thing which just feels weird. I happily accept Finn isn't at this point doing anything resembling combat piloting (although I would argue he does in the speeder attack).

The OT heroes jumping on speeder bikes is kind of similar, although in fairness Leia does crash hers.

5 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

The OT heroes jumping      on speeder  bikes is kind  o  f   similar, although in fairness Leia does crash hers.   

Luke blowing up the Death Star the first time he ever flew a space ship is essentially explained as "flying space ships isn't hard" as well.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Sorry, that was meant to be Rose and Finn. Typo. It's a TLJ deleted scene.

Obi-Wan specifically, for all that he hates flying, is at this point a fully qualified knight. Given the timespan between him being...well...TPM Anakin's age and AOTC, along with the sort of stuff you see and imagine jedi doing as their day job, assuming some 'proper' pilot training is not unreasonable.

Ah yes. That's the scene when they escape the Supremacy to go to Crait. At this point, according to the book, Finn already learned how to fly, the same way Anakin learned how to fly in episode 1, during an hyperspace travel.

As for Obi-Wan, that's what I always assumed and why I don't really make a fuss about this scene. But technically speaking, there is a difference between getting a 'proper' pilot training and being able to navigate an asteroid field. What was the odds again, 3720:1? I wonder how they would change if you added the condition 'while being chased by a homing missile'. But then again, he's a jedi, so we assume that he can use the Force to raise his reflexes. That's still some nasty flying though...

And I just remembered that there is also Anakin that singlehandedly pilot (or smooth crash) a CIS battlecruiser in Episode 3. How easy should it really be to pilot a battlecruiser alone?

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

As I said, I'm not throwing toys out of pram about it, but it's another thing which just feels weird. I happily accept Finn isn't at this point doing anything resembling combat piloting (although I would argue he does in the speeder attack).

The OT heroes jumping on speeder bikes is kind of similar, although in fairness Leia does crash hers.

As for the speeder attack. I personnally see a distinction between piloting a spaceship and piloting a speeder. I see spaceship as planes and speeders as cars. It's not because you don't know how to fly a plane that you don't know how to drive a car. But maybe that is also one of the reason why JJ removed it from the final cut, to not confused some people that focus on those little details.

As for the Endor chase, at the speed they are going and the density of the forest.... it's just amazing that nobody crashed earlier... I mean a scout trooper even turn around to shoot at them. Are you crazy!? Keep all your attention in front please!