29 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Merely being Force-sensitive wasn’t enough, plenty of those flew under the radar of the order. They needed to establish his potential (since actual strength in the Force comes in large part from training, “the Force is strong in this one” notwithstanding). Qui-Gonn knew about the Force-sensitivity from the podracing already.

But "the Force is strong in this one" ISN'T a notwithstanding example, it's the standard way this stuff is done in storytelling. It's a freaking trope of the narrative structure, and there are other examples in the franchise of a Jedi, spotting a young kid doing something that couldn't be explained, and becoming interested, and learning they are Force capable. Heck it's how Ezra came to the attention of Kannan in the Rebels cartoon. They were just doing normal stuff, then Ezra does something instinctively that would be impossible to any human without Force help, and it got him curious, so then he started testing him in other ways. Not to mention that this trope has been used in countless other stories, and they didn't need to do a blood test to establish the special snowflakeness of those protagonists.

They didn't need to test Harry Potter, and learn that his SlugelFlutes were the equivalent of Over 9000 O.W.L.S.! to know he was special, they had other vague and mystic stuff for that, like prophecies *cough* the same thing they said they had in Phantom Menace *cough*

They didn't need to test NEO to learn he was The One in Matrix, and later on, when they explained why he was able to do what he did(the Colonel Sanders scene in Reloaded) , it was considered one of the most horrible scenes in film history.

I know WHY they thought they needed to do it, so you don't need to keep explaining that, I get it. It still doesn't make it necessary, as it's been proven time and again, that there are plenty of good ways to establish the specialness of a character, that don't amount to a blood test for mystic powers.

2 minutes ago, Swordbreaker said:

Fixed that for you.

Cute.

Just now, KungFuFerret said:

Cute.

Am I wrong? Your throw around "rabid fanboys" as a derogatory term, yet seem quite passionate about how you view certain plot elements. In fact, I would dare describe it as... rabid. Whether or not your opinion has merit, your tone is antagonistic and unlikable. Honey and vinegar.

Just now, Swordbreaker said:

Am I wrong? Your throw around "rabid fanboys" as a derogatory term, yet seem quite passionate about how you view certain plot elements. In fact, I would dare describe it as... rabid. Whether or not your opinion has merit, your tone is antagonistic and unlikable. Honey and vinegar.

That's your opinion.

1 minute ago, KungFuFerret said:

That's your opinion.

Perhaps... except calling people who disagree with you "rabid fanboys" is derogatory, and always has been. Which is a fact, not an opinion.

13 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

But it doesn't actually ADD anything new or relevant to the mythos. It just slaps a "scientific" label onto something that didn't need it, for no real reason, other than the likelihood of rabid fanboys demanding to know the mechanics of how the Force works, for decades between the OT and PT.

Midichlorians don't explain how the Force works, how some are able to use it rather than others. And by your statement, it's possibly even just a biproduct, and not directly related to Force use at all. "He has high white blood cells, so there must be an infection" kind of situation. So again, so what? The franchise didn't need to have a scientific rationale or answer for Space Magic, and the fact that pretty much nobody else in the franchise ever brought it up again, even in the other prequel movies, would suggest that the majority of people found it a pointless, and silly part, and have just pretended it was never brought up.

And to the people about to "Well Actually" at me with crap from the Legacy material, where X author mentioned it, or Y comic book made a passing comment about it, nobody cares, or at least I sure don't. Those things have been published fan fiction for decades, with people pulling so many crazy things out of their butts, as to make your head spin. Besides, citing a handful (if that many) examples of it being mentioned, isn't evidence for it being relevant. The fact that only a handful of examples, compared to the MOUNTAIN of other material, would suggest that the majority of the people making SW content, and the fanbase in general, are perfectly fine without midichlorians.

Does everything have to add something new and exiting to the mythos? Sometimes the more interesting things can be the mundane details. How do people measure force sensitivity? Or can just anyone do it? Clearly not just anyone can do it as even in the OT, only a handful of people could actually do it, and most of them were old and/or evil. As far as the mythos is concerned, the force was something that was kinda there; but what the story was really about was the two sects of it going at one another; the force itself was a bit of background fluff that could be replaced with anything and still be functional.

Besides which, Jedi have studied the force for at least a thousand years according to the movies. It would seem pretty lazy if they didn't have some way of quantifying it in the years they have studied it. The fact is, the force is an abstract being that can only be measured in it's effect much like dark matter, I don't see how being able to measure a ripple produced by the force makes it any more mysterious, aside from the face it acts like a stone dropped in water. I mean, the alternative is that Anie started just doing things in the manner that Rey did; learning things very rapidly as she went along. That would also be fine. Personally I am very flexible of new information, that alone indicated that the Jedi order of then were very different from the remnants we observed in a new hope., from the blood testing to their general indifference to the state of the galaxy

Now the structure of Episode 1's pacing? Yeah. It's probably almost as slow as a new hope that felt like for most part it didn't know who's story it was trying to tell (a similar problem episode 8 had, for it's merits), and was essentially a political tale of the emperor taking his first step and the heroes being in the wake of his immense action. I get that; it just took an exceedingly long time to get to the point it was trying to make. That the galaxy was different back then and even the Jedi order weren't as interested in maintaining the good of the galaxy as 4-6 made out. They were highly knowledgeable on how the force worked to the extent that they could test for it, but they weren't very interested in solving the galaxies, problems, just maintaining republic relations. As far as the broad picture went, though episode 1 no doubt was a fairly average movie, it set the tone of the problems that lead to the formation of the empire. Very interesting.

And it's no less mysterious, because even then they still can't quantify the force as something physical. If it wasn't for the fact some people knew how to manipulate it? It mightn't even exist.

These are my hard and fast rules for the Force: (YMMV and feel free to ignore them)

1) The Force can only be wielded by organic life.

2) You don't have to wield the Force to be subject to its influence.

3) You cannot "engineer" Force aptitude, family bloodlines matter to a point, but it's not a certainty. (I disagree with all of the quasi-canon BS about specifically manufacturing Force Users) Relevant to the OT: A clone could become sensitive to the Force and learn to wield it, but cannot be manufactured wield it straight out of the Cloning Tank.

4) Even though the Force is connected to the living and organic it can transcend time and space.

I try to keep it fairly simple otherwise I'd drive myself crazy otherwise. Basically, I try to focus on the important points and disregard the rest.

42 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

Does everything have to add something new and exiting to the mythos?

No, but when you introduce something that answers a question that didn't need to be answered, and that most movie goers never even cared to ask, why add it at all? I don't care if it's an "exciting" addition to the mythos, but if you are going to introduce a new facet, at least have it make sense, and not just further muddy the discussion. It's a Chekov's Gun as it is, and those are considered a Bad Idea when it comes to storytelling structure. It has no bearing on the rest of the story (not even in that movie itself), has no bearing on anything else in the franchise, and is basically introduced, and immediately forgotten. So why waste screen time on it that could've been used to, oh I don't know, flesh out Darth Maul into something more interesting than a silent guard dog?

44 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

How do people measure force sensitivity? Or can just anyone do it? Clearly not just anyone can do it as even in the OT, only a handful of people could actually do it, and most of them were old and/or evil. As far as the mythos is concerned, the force was something that was kinda there; but what the story was really about was the two sects of it going at one another; the force itself was a bit of background fluff that could be replaced with anything and still be functional.

I agree, the Force was just a numinous feature, that allowed them to have Space Wizards, which is what Lucas wanted. And that's fine by itself. I don't see anyone clamoring to know the scientific explanations for how the magic in Lord of the Rings works, or anyone that attempted to do so. It was left numinous and vague, because the story didn't need it to be explained in minute, analytical detail. And the point I'm making is, neither does the Force. Every single story of the franchise, works just fine, leaving the Force as an "energy field that binds all living things. Life creates it, makes it grow." They never needed to explain how it "stimulates organisms in your body, to facilitate the production of midichlorians, which resonate with the Force (somehow), and thus give you Force powers" or whatever the actual link between the Force and midichlorians is, which they don't actually expand on much. It wasn't needed to answer any plot holes in the story, it didn't provide new and interesting ways to tell the story, as evidenced by everyone ignoring them entirely. The story was about the two sects of Force users, and the Force itself WAS background fluff, and it became a blockbuster sensation even with that fact. So why bother trying to science it up? It serves no practical, or narrative function.

49 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

Besides which, Jedi have studied the force for at least a thousand years according to the movies. It would seem pretty lazy if they didn't have some way of quantifying it in the years they have studied it.

But it's not quantifying the Force, the midichlorians says nothing about the Force itself, merely how likely someone is at using the Force. And they have tons of ways to measure that, ways that I'm sure they used regularly. The Jedi Trials for one, or just "hey, try and Move this 100kg of weight." "Whoa, you did that super easy, you even stuck it in the wall, ok try 500kg, yep, still doable. Ok, 1000kg" etc etc. "Hey, try and jump 10 meters vertically, ok, no problem. Now try and jump to that landing, it's 20 meters, whoops, ok, so that's still outside your ability right now." Those are some very easy metrics to gauge a persons utility with the Force. So easy that they've basically been utilized by the very game system we are posting on the forum of. "With X upgrade, you can Move objects of Y sihouette with minimal effort." etc etc.

1 hour ago, LordBritish said:

The fact is, the force is an abstract being that can only be measured in it's effect much like dark matter, I don't see how being able to measure a ripple produced by the force makes it any more mysterious, aside from the face it acts like a stone dropped in water. I mean, the alternative is that Anie started just doing things in the manner that Rey did; learning things very rapidly as she went along. That would also be fine.

They basically did establish that he was already doing stuff. It's suggested by Qui-Gon that his talent at pod-racing was due to his sensitivity in the Force, giving him heightened reflexes, and is why he was able to fly a starship brilliantly on his first try. It's also suggested that his affinity for building droids and machines was Force related too, or at least I seem to recall that, it's been a while since I saw the movie, could be wrong on that point. I do remember having that impression when I watched the film the first time though, that it was the Force giving him his capacity to do things a 6 year old normally isn't capable of.

As to them introducing new stuff, I'm 100% fine with that, as every movie has done this very thing. Empire introduced Luke just improvising a Move attempt to pull his saber hilt to him in the wampa cave. He improvised sending a telepathic message to Leia to save him on Cloud City. Palpatine used lightning without any establishing of that being something doable with the Force. Rey also improvised the Move trick to get a saber hilt out of a snowbank, as well as resisting a...I guess Force Mind Probe, which would be a new one too? New stuff is perfectly fine, if it's part of the story, and has relevance to it.

3 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

That's your opinion.

We all have opinions and we are all fanboys/girls here. No need for us to be upset with one another over something that we have no control over. Some things sit well with us, some don’t. It’s okay to disagree and to imagine differences with how the saga plays out. That’s half the fun of being a fanboy (or girl). Way I see it, if you like Midichlorians then great use it, if not, great, ignore it. I’m ignoring all the mess that is the new post Endor period but I know my GM loves it. In the end, we can still find more we agree with than we disagree with.

1 hour ago, Khazadune said:

No need for us to be upset with one another over something that we have no control over.

I'm not upset, I'm describing why midichlorians is a poor narrative tool. I don't give a crap if anyone likes it or not, that is a separate issue. If you love midichlorians, great, knock yourself out, but if someone tries to say they are a good narrative device, and that they were used well in the film, then I'm going to disagree, because that's not a matter of opinion. The tools for storytelling are pretty well established and honed over millennia of humans telling stories. Doing some things help a story, doing others doesn't.

4 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

No, but when you introduce something that answers a question that didn't need to be answered, and that most movie goers never even cared to ask, why add it at all? I don't care if it's an "exciting" addition to the mythos, but if you are going to introduce a new facet, at least have it make sense, and not just further muddy the discussion. It's a Chekov's Gun as it is, and those are considered a Bad Idea when it comes to storytelling structure. It has no bearing on the rest of the story (not even in that movie itself), has no bearing on anything else in the franchise, and is basically introduced, and immediately forgotten. So why waste screen time on it that could've been used to, oh I don't know, flesh out Darth Maul into something more interesting than a silent guard dog?

Whoa, going to have to disagree there.

The story needed a way for Qui-Gon (and particularly Obi-Wan, the master-to-be) to convince themselves they had found the prophecied Chosen One, but it couldn’t be something that the Council would accept as convincing proof - they had to remain sceptical. At the same time it needed to be something that would let the Council decide to accept an 8-year old to be trained, despite it being years past the acceptable age (and it had to be years past the acceptable age because the adventures of a space toddler wouldn’t work and because it sets up the whole arc of attachment/love being both the cause of Anakin’s fall and the spark of his redemption). Anakin had to be established as not just any Force-sensitive kid, and that does come back later.

1 hour ago, nameless ronin said:

Whoa, going to have to disagree there.

The story needed a way for Qui-Gon (and particularly Obi-Wan, the master-to-be) to convince themselves they had found the prophecied Chosen One, but it couldn’t be something that the Council would accept as convincing proof - they had to remain sceptical. At the same time it needed to be something that would let the Council decide to accept an 8-year old to be trained, despite it being years past the acceptable age (and it had to be years past the acceptable age because the adventures of a space toddler wouldn’t work and because it sets up the whole arc of attachment/love being both the cause of Anakin’s fall and the spark of his redemption). Anakin had to be established as not just any Force-sensitive kid, and that does come back later.

But the midichlorian count of him wasn't how they tested him. They did tons of other things, that we actually see on-screen. They do mental games to see if he can see into their minds, they asked him questions, etc. Not once does midichlorians come up when they are actually debating if he should be trained. It had no bearing, positive or negative on his final outcome as a potential Padawan. Also, they didn't accept him to be trained, they in fact flat out said no if you recall. Qui-Gon simply trumped their decision, because apparently a Master has the right to take anyone they choose as a Padawan, regardless of the Council's ruling, since that's exactly what happened. And again, nothing to do with the midichlorians.

As to Obi-Wan training him, he did that because it was the dying wish of his Master. He was pretty skeptical through that whole movie about Anakin's chosen one status, but in the end he didn't really care. His Master, with his literal dying breath, told him to train him. So train him he would. Now if you want to say that over the course of the trilogy, as he watched Anakin's power grow, he began to believe it, sure, but again, that had nothing to do with midchlorians, it had to do with Anakin's actions.

Anyone, I'm done discussing this. I've said my piece on it.

*sigh* This again.

Okay, there are four misconceptions that people labor under which unfairly prejudice them against midichlorians. They are:

1) Midichlorians ARE the Force: False. Qui-Gon never says so, and nothing he says about midichlorians contradicts the statements by Obi-Wan and Yoda that the Force is an energy field created by all living things. All Qui-Gon says is that midichlorians live within beings in the Star Wars universe in a symbiotic relationship, that without them life would not exist and they would have no knowledge of the Force, and that they constantly speak to them, telling them the will of the Force.

2) Midichlorians create the Force: True with caveat. Midichlorians are living things, and the Force is an energy field created by all living things, so midichlorians do create the Force. So do humans, so do Rodians, so do Twi'leks, so do Hutts, so do mynocks, so do space slugs.

3) Midichlorians demystify the Force. Your Mileage May Vary, but in the same breath Qui-Gon explains midichlorians, he talks about the Force having a "Will," something it was not presented as having in the Original Trilogy. This makes it even more akin to a religious figure, a deity of some kind, than previously.

4) Midichlorians reduce Force-Sensitivity to simple biology: False. The prequels also reveal that Jedi are forbidden from marrying and having families, aside from a few spectacular exceptions (such as Ki-Adi Mundi, because of his species very low birthrate for males, every one was required to maintain genetic diversity, so he had three wives, as is Cerean custom). Now, some have said that while the Prequel Jedi forbid attachments and marriage, they didn't forbid casual sex, but that is unlikely to produce sufficient offspring to keep Force-Sensitive biology in the galactic population. In short, the Prequel Jedi would have bred themselves into extinction in a generation or two if Force-Sensitivity was purely a function of biology. Looking into the New Canon, the Skywalker family's genetic predisposition to Force-Sensitivity is seen as the exception rather than the rule, and new Force-Sensitives, like Rey and Broom Boy are being chosen by the Force itself to be wielders of its power. This also means that "midichlorian cocktails," blood transfusions, or other medical procedures won't bestow Force-Sensitivity, because while there is a biological component, there's more to the Force than mere biology.

My hypothesis is that, as real-life mitochondria translate energy from digested food into a form usable by our cells, midichlorians translate the energy of the Force into a form usable by the beings of the Star Wars universe. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for Force-Sensitive clones. . . unlikely, but possible. There is a biological component, after all, so cloning from someone who wasn't Force-Sensitive is unlikely to generate Force-Sensitivity, while cloning from someone who is Force-Sensitive is frought with difficulty (Joruus C'baoth says hi). On the other hand, if the Force has a will of its own, and can choose whoever it wants to be Force-Sensitive, then it could certainly choose a clone for reasons no one else is likely to comprehend.

30 minutes ago, ErikModi said:

Now, some have said that while the Prequel Jedi forbid attachments and marriage, they didn't forbid casual sex, but that is unlikely to produce sufficient offspring to keep Force-Sensitive biology in the galactic population.

Maury Povich has shown that casual sex can produce sufficient offspring for a great many things.

7 hours ago, ErikModi said:

*sigh* This again.

Okay, there are four misconceptions that people labor under which unfairly prejudice them against midichlorians. They are:

1) Midichlorians ARE the Force: False. Qui-Gon never says so, and nothing he says about midichlorians contradicts the statements by Obi-Wan and Yoda that the Force is an energy field created by all living things. All Qui-Gon says is that midichlorians live within beings in the Star Wars universe in a symbiotic relationship, that without them life would not exist and they would have no knowledge of the Force, and that they constantly speak to them, telling them the will of the Force.

2) Midichlorians create the Force: True with caveat. Midichlorians are living things, and the Force is an energy field created by all living things, so midichlorians do create the Force. So do humans, so do Rodians, so do Twi'leks, so do Hutts, so do mynocks, so do space slugs.

3) Midichlorians demystify the Force. Your Mileage May Vary, but in the same breath Qui-Gon explains midichlorians, he talks about the Force having a "Will," something it was not presented as having in the Original Trilogy. This makes it even more akin to a religious figure, a deity of some kind, than previously.

4) Midichlorians reduce Force-Sensitivity to simple biology: False. The prequels also reveal that Jedi are forbidden from marrying and having families, aside from a few spectacular exceptions (such as Ki-Adi Mundi, because of his species very low birthrate for males, every one was required to maintain genetic diversity, so he had three wives, as is Cerean custom). Now, some have said that while the Prequel Jedi forbid attachments and marriage, they didn't forbid casual sex, but that is unlikely to produce sufficient offspring to keep Force-Sensitive biology in the galactic population. In short, the Prequel Jedi would have bred themselves into extinction in a generation or two if Force-Sensitivity was purely a function of biology. Looking into the New Canon, the Skywalker family's genetic predisposition to Force-Sensitivity is seen as the exception rather than the rule, and new Force-Sensitives, like Rey and Broom Boy are being chosen by the Force itself to be wielders of its power. This also means that "midichlorian cocktails," blood transfusions, or other medical procedures won't bestow Force-Sensitivity, because while there is a biological component, there's more to the Force than mere biology.

My hypothesis is that, as real-life mitochondria translate energy from digested food into a form usable by our cells, midichlorians translate the energy of the Force into a form usable by the beings of the Star Wars universe. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for Force-Sensitive clones. . . unlikely, but possible. There is a biological component, after all, so cloning from someone who wasn't Force-Sensitive is unlikely to generate Force-Sensitivity, while cloning from someone who is Force-Sensitive is frought with difficulty (Joruus C'baoth says hi). On the other hand, if the Force has a will of its own, and can choose whoever it wants to be Force-Sensitive, then it could certainly choose a clone for reasons no one else is likely to comprehend.

True for the most part. However, I wouldn't call the Skywalker bloodline the "exception" to the rule. Force Sensitivity is genetic, and can always be inherited. However, it can also show up unexpectedly in families without known Force lineages. Whether that's due to a recessive gene, or simply the Will of the Force (or both), is up for debate.

13 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

True for the most part. However, I wouldn't call the Skywalker bloodline the "exception" to the rule. Force Sensitivity is genetic, and can always be inherited. However, it can also show up unexpectedly in families without known Force lineages. Whether that's due to a recessive gene, or simply the Will of the Force (or both), is up for debate.

Only really in the Legends continuity, since the only sample the writers had to go on was Luke. If Luke, his father, and his sister are all Force-Sensitive, than it must be an inherited trait. The Prequels and new canon show this is not necessarily the case.

Though I admit, the data is still somewhat lacking to make a true determination if Force-Sensitivity can be inherited outside the Skywalkers.

20 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Maury Povich has shown that casual sex can produce sufficient offspring for a great many things.

Maury Povich. Your argument is invalid.

But seriously, when you factor in the percentage of Jedi likely to have indulged themselves regularly (likely not large, given the Jedi's focus on self-control), the amount of those that wouldn't have had proper contraception, and the number of those that weren't with genetically incompatible species, the point stands. If Force-Sensitivity was purely genetic, the Jedi would have bred themselves to extinction long before the prequels happened. And it's outright stated that they find new recruits by identifying Force-Sensitive children born in the Republic, apparently seemingly at random.

3 hours ago, ErikModi said:

And it's outright stated that they find new recruits by identifying Force-Sensitive children born in the Republic, apparently seemingly at random.

Or because they get an invite from Maury to attend his show...

5 hours ago, ErikModi said:

Only really in the Legends continuity, since the only sample the writers had to go on was Luke. If Luke, his father, and his sister are all Force-Sensitive, than it must be an inherited trait. The Prequels and new canon show this is not necessarily the case.

Though I admit, the data is still somewhat lacking to make a true determination if Force-Sensitivity can be inherited outside the Skywalkers.

The thing is not so much a matter of limited sampling. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda specifically tel Luke that the Force is strong in his family. And the fact that Midichlorians, much like Mitochondria (which is what the Midichlorians were based upon) are inherited, that means the Force Sensitivity is an inherit able trait. The prequel era Jedi were shooting themselves in the foot by restricting Jedi marriage.

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The thing is not so much a matter of limited sampling. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda specifically tel Luke that the Force is strong in his family. And the fact that Midichlorians, much like Mitochondria (which is what the Midichlorians were based upon) are inherited, that means the Force Sensitivity is an inherit able trait. The prequel era Jedi were shooting themselves in the foot by restricting Jedi marriage.

Only inheritable by the Skywalkers, from what we've seen outside the Legends continuity. No one is known to have inherited Force Sensitivity from their parents who isn't directly related to Anakin Skywalker. Now, absence of proof is not proof of absence, and it may well be inheritable elsewhere, but clearly the prequel Jedi weren't "shooting themselves in the foot", as the Order was at its pinnacle (from a certain point of view) when it was destroyed by Palpatine and Vader. There were plenty of Force-Sensitives being born, enough to populate the Jedi Order with thousands and keep the Sith going strong in secret for a thousand years (as well as whatever other Force Traditions may survive Schrodingers Canon, like the Nightsisters did). All on-screen evidence points to genetics being the least important factor in determining Force-Sensitivity, which means something else is at work, and in the Star Wars universe, that something else is pretty much always The Force.

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The thing is not so much a matter of limited sampling. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda specifically tel Luke that the Force is strong in his family. And the fact that Midichlorians, much like Mitochondria (which is what the Midichlorians were based upon) are inherited, that means the Force Sensitivity is an inherit able trait. The prequel era Jedi were shooting themselves in the foot by restricting Jedi marriage.

There are plenty of examples of force sensitivity being inherited and family lineages of Jedi in legends material.

Darth Maul and Savage Opress and all the Nightsisters are in Canon examples of force sensitivity passing down genetically.

1 minute ago, ErikModi said:

Only inheritable by the Skywalkers, from what we've seen outside the Legends continuity. No one is known to have inherited Force Sensitivity from their parents who isn't directly related to Anakin Skywalker. Now, absence of proof is not proof of absence, and it may well be inheritable elsewhere, but clearly the prequel Jedi weren't "shooting themselves in the foot", as the Order was at its pinnacle (from a certain point of view) when it was destroyed by Palpatine and Vader. There were plenty of Force-Sensitives being born, enough to populate the Jedi Order with thousands and keep the Sith going strong in secret for a thousand years (as well as whatever other Force Traditions may survive Schrodingers Canon, like the Nightsisters did). All on-screen evidence points to genetics being the least important factor in determining Force-Sensitivity, which means something else is at work, and in the Star Wars universe, that something else is pretty much always The Force.

The Nightsisters and Nightbrothers also bred Force users even in the new Canon. That's why I used the term inerit able, not just inherit ed . This is because not every Force user did inherent their ability from their parents. My point is, as shown with the Skywalkers, and the Nightsisters, the trait can be inherited, and can be passed on. It is inherit able .

2 minutes ago, Eoen said:

There are plenty of examples of force sensitivity being inherited and family lineages of Jedi in legends material.

True, but that was all based on Luke Skywalker, and his statements that Force was strong in his family, so writers assumed that would be the case for all Force-Sensitives. Then the Prequels were released.

I remember being at a seminar at GenCon years ago, with a few Star Wars authors (Timothy Zhan among them), and someone had repeated something that the liason between LucasFilm and the publishers had told them. "You're playing in George's driveway, with his toys, and you're adding some of your toys to the pile. But when he backs up the truck that is that first movie, he's going to run over a lot of your toys." The idea that Force-Sensitivity is strictly inherited was one of those toys.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The Nightsisters and Nightbrothers also bred Force users even in the new Canon. That's why I used the term inerit able, not just inherit ed . This is because not every Force user did inherent their ability from their parents. My point is, as shown with the Skywalkers, and the Nightsisters, the trait can be inherited, and can be passed on. It is inherit able .

Ah, I misunderstood your point, then. Even so, it doesn't seem like there's a guarantee that Force-Sensitive parents equal Force-Sensitive children, except for Skywalkers (and even that could be debatable after several generations of "diluting the blood," if you like). I don't think they ever went into any depth with it, but Jedi who were allowed to marry and have children (like the afforementioned Ki-Adi Mundi) didn't seem like they had a higher-than-normal chance of having Force-Sensitive children. Inheritable, but not always. Again, hinting at the idea that the Force itself is selecting who gets to wield it, and Karen Traviss' rantings about the Jedi being a "genetically-superior Master Race" are way off the mark.

2 minutes ago, ErikModi said:

True, but that was all based on Luke Skywalker, and his statements that Force was strong in his family, so writers assumed that would be the case for all Force-Sensitives. Then the Prequels were released.

I remember being at a seminar at GenCon years ago, with a few Star Wars authors (Timothy Zhan among them), and someone had repeated something that the liason between LucasFilm and the publishers had told them. "You're playing in George's driveway, with his toys, and you're adding some of your toys to the pile. But when he backs up the truck that is that first movie, he's going to run over a lot of your toys." The idea that Force-Sensitivity is strictly inherited was one of those toys.

Ah, I misunderstood your point, then. Even so, it doesn't seem like there's a guarantee that Force-Sensitive parents equal Force-Sensitive children, except for Skywalkers (and even that could be debatable after several generations of "diluting the blood," if you like). I don't think they ever went into any depth with it, but Jedi who were allowed to marry and have children (like the afforementioned Ki-Adi Mundi) didn't seem like they had a higher-than-normal chance of having Force-Sensitive children. Inheritable, but not always. Again, hinting at the idea that the Force itself is selecting who gets to wield it, and Karen Traviss' rantings about the Jedi being a "genetically-superior Master Race" are way off the mark.

Precisely, there is no guarantee that the children would be born Force Sensitive, but it is likely, particularly if both parents are Force users. It really depends on the parents, whether the trait is a dominant trait or a recessive trait, and how the genetic dice roll.

Go back to your basic biology class from High school. If you have two people strong with the Force, (with both genes in the pair being the "Force Sensitive gene". The children will be Force sensitive. If one parent has both genes in the pair be the Force Sensitive gene, but the other parent has no Force sensitive Gene, the children will have one Gene for Force sensitivity, which, if a recessive gene, would make them non-force sensitive, but if it's a dominant gene, would make them Force sensitive. If they breed with a person with only one gene for Force sensitivity, they would have a 25% chance of producing a pure-blood Force sensitive, a 50% chance of producing a half-blood Force sensitive, and a 25% chance of the child completely lacking the Force Sensitive gene. And the chances of a Force Sensitive being born decreases to only a 25% chance of even a Half-blood Force user being born if a half-blood breeds with someone without the Force sensitive gene. By contrast, if the half-blood breeds with a Full-blood Force user, then the chances of producing a full blood Force user increases to 75%. However, even if the gene is recessive, as long as that gene remains within the bloodline, there is always the possibility of it manifesting, even many generations later of non-Force sensitives being born.

In the case of Cereans, we can probably assume that either Ki-Adi Mundi only had one gene for Force sensitivity (and his wives were all completely non-Force sensitive), or Force sensitivity is a recessive gene in that species. If the former is true, then his chances of fathering a potential Force user was only 25% from each mating. Those aren't very good odds. If the latter were true, the only chance he would have of producing a Force sensitive child would be if at least one of his wives also carried the gene, and then still, the highest chance they had would be 25% and only with that wife. If none of his wives carried the gene, then he would have a 0% chance of fathering a Force user. However, there would always be the potential that the recessive gene would get passed down and eventually manifest.

Tramp, many genetic qualities are far more complex than a two-pairing matrix like you suggest. If you go with the idea of Force Sensitivity being a genetically determined quality (it could just as easily be a "will of the Force" mystical selection), then it is unlikely a simple Punnett Square is the way to sort it out.