Listen folks

I get it. It's annoying to hear about someone's favorite ship not being up to their standards, be it the most well known ship in the universe, or a lovely overweight bomber.

It's also crappy to hear that one of your favorite cards or combos is overpowered, especially when you put in effort into practicing with it, or you just really like the flavor of the K-Wing (hey... I'm not gonna judge) or something.

It is also annoying to listen to these things all the time, over and over again.

However.

It would be foolish to disregard these threads, posts and comments in their capacity to induce the change we see today. If everybody just "shuts up and gits good", FFG would hardly see the level of dissatisfaction with some mechanics like turrets, high PS alpha strikes, bombs etc.

I'm not saying that every change in 2.0 was induced by us whining. But I'm also sure that without it, not everything we like about 2.0 would be manifested as it is today.

Being thankful that FFG listens, while claiming that the posts they listened to are ruining X-Wing is a bit harsh I feel.

So I don't know. Hug a whiner today. Or at least don't deny that their dissatisfaction had a role to play in us receiving the version of the game most of us wanted.

5 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

So I don't know. Hug a whiner today.

I hug them until they stop breathing...

I disagree. Complaints help the game. Whining only spreads the bitterness around.

"Token stacking can be brokenly OP as many lists simply can't overcome the stack. It's not fun having to build my squad around countering a single play style." is a complaint that can help.

"THE NEW CHANGES ARE GARBAGE AND YOU'RE GARBAGE IF YOU DISAGREE!" is rather less helpful

4 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I disagree. Complaints help the game. Whining only spreads the bitterness around.

"Token stacking can be brokenly OP as many lists simply can't overcome the stack. It's not fun having to build my squad around countering a single play style." is a complaint that can help.

"THE NEW CHANGES ARE GARBAGE AND YOU'RE GARBAGE IF YOU DISAGREE!" is rather less helpful

Only one thing. People call complaints whining as well.

4 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I disagree. Complaints help the game. Whining only spreads the bitterness around.

Exactly.

The very loud whining by a minority increases tension in the community, not better releases.

5 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Only one thing. People call complaints whining as well.

Then they do so incorrectly. Whining is a subset of complaining, in that it expresses discontent, but unlike more useful complaints, it expresses only discontent, and not more information that could actually be of use.

Just now, JJ48 said:

Then they do so incorrectly. Whining is a subset of complaining, in that it expresses discontent, but unlike more useful complaints, it expresses only discontent, and not more information that could actually be of use.

No?

Whining is a way of complaining. I can complain and whine about the same thing, with my comments carrying the same information as well.

Whining is just more annoying. It's a stylistic difference.

What my point is: People are annoying, but they have legit points that helped the devs make the 2nd edition.

Ironically, what does nobody any good is the whining about whining. It's always just amazed me how derpy people have to be to do that. Completely unselfconsciously.

'Constructive criticism' is the expression we're reaching for here and, indeed, it works wonders to fix problems.

Which means that HOW we complain is just as important as WHY we complain. As JJ48 exposed, posting that 'x thing sucks!11!' doesn't help anyone - him/her, us or FFG.

Wrong- whining is not helpful or useful. Constructive criticism is. Here's the difference-

Whining involves complaining continually about an issue without any helpful or useful suggestions.

Constructive criticism gives both the root cause of the issue and promotes a useful dialogue in suggesting changes to correct it.

It’s possible to express dissatisfaction without whining OR complaining. Even better, it’s possible to provide constructive criticism and suggestions for improvement. How about we support those methods improving the state of the game rather than the most aggravating methods?

EDIT: ninja’d by @Volkomor

EDIT2: and @Ikka !

49 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

It would be foolish to disregard these threads, posts and comments in their capacity to induce the change we see today. If everybody just "shuts up and gits good", FFG would hardly see the level of dissatisfaction with some mechanics like turrets, high PS alpha strikes, bombs etc.

49 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

But I'm also sure that without it, not everything we like about 2.0 would be manifested as it is today.

50 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Or at least don't deny that their dissatisfaction had a role to play in us receiving the version of the game most of us wanted.

19 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

People are annoying, but they have legit points that helped the devs make the 2nd edition.

[citation needed]

citation needed*

Not a single post of the dozen or so heavy whiners we’ve had since wave 4 has ever made any documentable difference.

Whiners are a problem, not a solution, in nearly every game forum. They only poison new and potential players against the game.

I think FFG had an idea of the problems facing the game and it didn't come about by reading all the whiny posts. They just had to look at the tournament results.

30 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

[citation needed]

You need citation for my opinions?

40 minutes ago, Volkomor said:

'Constructive criticism' is the expression we're reaching for here and, indeed, it works wonders to fix problems.

Which means that HOW we complain is just as important as WHY we complain. As JJ48 exposed, posting that 'x thing sucks!11!' doesn't help anyone - him/her, us or FFG.

Yeah, but it's the internet. Get real people. It would be all very nice if we were positive and cheerful, but that's not gonna happen. Flipping out on HOW people talk or as Jeff puts it, whining about whining, seems like a futile attempt.

40 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

It’s possible to express dissatisfaction without whining OR complaining. Even better, it’s possible to provide constructive criticism and suggestions for improvement. How about we support those methods improving the state of the game rather than the most aggravating methods?

EDIT: ninja’d by @Volkomor

EDIT2: and @Ikka !

It is possible. It is also possible to stop starvation relatively easily. We can also stop all wars from happening. These things however won't happen. You can take it easy and have some fun on the dang internet.

25 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

citation needed*

Not a single post of the dozen or so heavy whiners we’ve had since wave 4 has ever made any documentable difference.

Whiners are a problem, not a solution, in nearly every game forum. They only poison new and potential players against the game.

It is possible that it didn't, although, highly unlikely.

FFG has a forum where costumers are talking about the product freely. Do you honestly think they don't take notes of what's bugging people?

Sure, we don't have definite proof... because FFG isn't great at communicating... but it just doesn't make sense businesswise, not to.

4 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

I think FFG had an idea of the problems facing the game and it didn't come about by reading all the whiny posts. They just had to look at the tournament results.

Some of the problems, yes. Not all problems were competition related however. If people weren't having fun, and they posted here, do you think FFG ignored it?

If you were running a sandwich shop, and on the FB profile of your restaurant you'd receive multiple comments like: "Great sandwiches, but the mayo tastes like sh#t, ruined my whole day", would you ignore it as whining?

9 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

You need citation for my opinions?

Yeah, but it's the internet. Get real people. It would be all very nice if we were positive and cheerful, but that's not gonna happen. Flipping out on HOW people talk or as Jeff puts it, whining about whining, seems like a futile attempt.

It is possible. It is also possible to stop starvation relatively easily. We can also stop all wars from happening. These things however won't happen. You can take it easy and have some fun on the dang internet.

It is possible that it didn't, although, highly unlikely.

FFG has a forum where costumers are talking about the product freely. Do you honestly think they don't take notes of what's bugging people?

Sure, we don't have definite proof... because FFG isn't great at communicating... but it just doesn't make sense businesswise, not to.

Some of the problems, yes. Not all problems were competition related however. If people weren't having fun, and they posted here, do you think FFG ignored it?

If you were running a sandwich shop, and on the FB profile of your restaurant you'd receive multiple comments like: "Great sandwiches, but the mayo tastes like sh#t, ruined my whole day", would you ignore it as whining?

1) I wouldn't own or run a sandwich shop. In fact nothing where my stock has a shelf life.

2) That's the difference between complaining and whining.

3) How can it be a great sandwich if the mayo tastes like suite?

Complaints add weight to the constructive criticism. Whining adds momentum to the complaints.

Without the constructive criticism, it's simply a motionless puddle of bull@#$%.

If only all the complaints and whining were constructive criticism. Then we'd have weight, momentum and no bull@#$%.

Whining about whining about whining is the new meta.

6 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Complaints add weight to the constructive criticism. Whining adds momentum to the complaints.

Without the constructive criticism, it's simply a motionless puddle of bull@#$%.

If only all the complaints and whining were constructive criticism. Then we'd have weight, momentum and no bull@#$%.

Whining about whining about whining is the new meta.

I don't think you could really replace whining with constructive criticism for gaining momentum. Whining tends to be repetitive, whereas constructive criticism tends not to be.

I‘ll get my popcorn

14 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Yeah  , but it's the internet. Get real people. It would be all very  nice if we were positive and cheerful, but that's not gonna happe  n  .

14 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

You  can take it easy and have some fun on the dang inte  rnet  .

Did you just - in the same post - argue that it would be great if people on the internet behaved better, and that it‘s fine and fun not to behave better on the internet?

5 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

1) I wouldn't own or run a sandwich shop. In fact nothing where my stock has a shelf life.

2) That's the difference between complaining and whining.

4 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Complaints add weight to the constructive criticism. Whining adds momentum to the complaints.

Without the constructive criticism, it's simply a motionless puddle of bull@#$%.

If only all the complaints and whining were constructive criticism. Then we'd have weight, momentum and no bull@#$%.

1, All complaints, regardless of style, are called whining on this forum.

2, Whining is a stylistic difference still, and it does not mean the complaint is not valid. You can say it does, but it doesn't. The difference between complaining and whining does not carry with itself a judgment about the content. It might be more emotional, or less compelling, and you might decide to ignore for those reasons, but it DOES NOT MEAN IT'S NOT VALID.
Example: The Punisher was a bad ship. I whined about it. That doesn't make my whining about it factually inaccurate. It makes ME annoying, but the ship still sucked.

19 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Yeah, but it's the internet. Get real people. It would be all very nice if we were positive and cheerful, but that's not gonna happen. Flipping out on HOW people talk or as Jeff puts it, whining about whining, seems like a futile attempt.

What we can do is to avoid replying to whine posts/threads; create a culture of 'either post something reasonable or be ignored'.

1 minute ago, LordBlades said:

I don't think you could really replace whining with constructive criticism for gaining momentum. Whining tends to be repetitive, whereas constructive criticism tends not to be.

Fair point. Perhaps every note of constructive criticism could come with an 'add whine' function alongside the 'quote'.

Simply repeats the CC and appends a WahWahWahBlatherBlather.

2 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

1, All complaints, regardless of style, are called whining on this forum.

This is true. I'm curious as to who's willing to dispute it.

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I‘ll get my popcorn

Did you just - in the same post - argue that it would be great if people on the internet behaved better, and that it‘s fine and fun not to behave better on the internet?

No. I'll explain it to you, so you can join in.

People are horrible on the internet, and they always will be. You can either accept that, and have a fun time despite it, or you can fight a crusade against it and lose. You will change nothing, but your own experience.

1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:

This is true. I'm curious as to who's willing to dispute it.

I'll happily expand it to include all forums.