5 minutes ago, qwertyuiop said:

Rune Wars does have a lot of artificial complexity which is definitely interesting to some. Eh. It's subjective. Rune Wars does have a lower price point which is a plus, and as I've mentioned, I personally like the IP more than Thrones. Still, whether people want to admit it or not, Rune Wars does compete with Legion on some level. (but not as much as the Star Wars games compete with themselves)

Would you care to elaborate on that "artificial complexity" comment? As far as I can see, Runewars is pretty dang tightly designed, but then I am extremely biased in its favour.

I think saying it competes with Legion is fair, inasmuch as it competes with every minis game out there - time and money are finite, so gamers can only support so many products. Certainly locally we lost about 4 people the day it was announced (traitors, may Waiqar take them!)

Discussing fanbases, I think it's probably good to take a step back and consider what the Venn diagrams of these fanbases look like.

Game of Thrones (books) fans probably have some crossover with tabletop gaming fans, simply because we nerds tend to read. However, GoT (show) fans are newer, far more numerous, more responsible for the pop culture push, and significantly less likely to cross over into tabletop gaming for any significant period of time if they weren't already players.

I see a lot of GoT wargame boxes being purchased, played a few times, then stuck on a shelf (likely as part of a "Hey look how much of a nerd I am look at all my GoT stuff" display) and essentially forgotten about.

The sort of person who games enough to really grasp *why* Runewars works, compare its mechanics with other wargames, and decide to stick with it is not the same sort of person to be glamoured by the GoT coat of paint. Similarly, the person who grasps the real meat of Runewars isn't the same guy who is going to be glamoured over into Legion, as the mechanics are about as dissimilar as you can get while still technically involving minis, cards, and dice.

I gave Legion a real shot. Heck, go check my painting thread over there. I just sold ALL my Legion models to a local player because it just.... doesn't grab me. It's too much like the half-million other shooty shoot wargames I could be playing and choose not to.

I just don't think these properties are in as much competition for their core fanbase as we tend to assume, and I think the big swings of "OMG TAKE MY MONEYZZZZ" fairweather gamers and pop culture junkie Johnny/Sally Come-Latelies tend to skew our perceptions.

8 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Discussing fanbases, I think it's probably good to take a step back and consider what the Venn diagrams of these fanbases look like.

Game of Thrones (books) fans probably have some crossover with tabletop gaming fans, simply because we nerds tend to read. However, GoT (show) fans are newer, far more numerous, more responsible for the pop culture push, and significantly less likely to cross over into tabletop gaming for any significant period of time if they weren't already players.

I see a lot of GoT wargame boxes being purchased, played a few times, then stuck on a shelf (likely as part of a "Hey look how much of a nerd I am look at all my GoT stuff" display) and essentially forgotten about.

The sort of person who games enough to really grasp *why* Runewars works, compare its mechanics with other wargames, and decide to stick with it is not the same sort of person to be glamoured by the GoT coat of paint. Similarly, the person who grasps the real meat of Runewars isn't the same guy who is going to be glamoured over into Legion, as the mechanics are about as dissimilar as you can get while still technically involving minis, cards, and dice.

I gave Legion a real shot. Heck, go check my painting thread over there. I just sold ALL my Legion models to a local player because it just.... doesn't grab me. It's too much like the half-million other shooty shoot wargames I could be playing and choose not to.

I just don't think these properties are in as much competition for their core fanbase as we tend to assume, and I think the big swings of "OMG TAKE MY MONEYZZZZ" fairweather gamers and pop culture junkie Johnny/Sally Come-Latelies tend to skew our perceptions.

Fair, but the market segment of people who primarily want to engage with the fiction and community surrounding a game really shouldn't be underestimated. Runewars's mechanics are what make it really stand out, and that's what draws some of us (you and I, certainly) to it, but just as many aren't all that fussed by meaningful decisions and tight rules. "Put it on the table and see what happens" is a very real attitude, and can lead to some very real conflict and resentment when unspoken expectations are not met.

Which I guess is to say that Runewars has some exceptional core strengths that will sustain a segment of its playerbase indefinitely, but I want as many opponents as possible and so I will root against at least the superficially similar games.

27 minutes ago, tgall said:

My measure is in areas across the areas where I regularly play, that being Minnesota. CMON's offering caused a little discussion but interest, just haven't seen it. I've not heard/seen anyone pick it up. Looking at the local store shelves, it's not there.

As a set of rules, you're the first @qwertyuiop that I've actually seen of someone with a positive experience to report.

I generally agree with the others that GoT makes for a good set of books, it's just not an AD&D/Terrinoth like universe so there's less to w  ork with. GoT has name appeal and fans sure but again, it's the rules and the game design where it with either sink or swim.

I get quite a chuckle from your Star Wars Legion directed comment. Seems ver  y myopic.

CMON is almost a local business in my area, so the hype may be higher here.

No one has picked it up locally because it hasn't been released yet. I think the KS versions are still a month or two out.
I can agree that the game might suffer from Eric Lang syndrome, wherein the game looks very simple. But, sometimes games with his name on them are deeper than they look. Sometimes they aren't.

47 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

Would you care to elaborate on that "artificial complexity" comment? As far as I can see, Runewars is pretty dang tightly designed, but then I am extremely biased in its favour.

I think saying it competes with Legion is fair, inasmuch as it competes with every minis game out there - time and money are finite, so gamers can only support so many products. Certainly locally we lost about 4 people the day it was announced (traitors, may Waiqar take them!)

Damage calculation, Template movement, some aspects of the dials, standard FFG overuse of tokens. Perhaps a mix of artificial complexity and pointless restriction. The damage calculation could have been a no-brainer considering how much FFG loves to make its fanbase buy extra dice. Template movement works for X-wing where engaging and disengaging is constant and trajectory matters. It adds nothing to a rank and file combat game, IMO. The dials are mostly good. My issue with them has more to do with the template movement. Turns (generally) matter more in RW than X-wing, which makes bad luck and mistakes more costly. I should also say that I think FFG overdesigns a lot of things in general.

Losing 4 players out of how many? If my area (which has a lot of gamers) lost 4 RW players, there might only be two left!

47 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Discussing fanbases, I think it's probably good to take a step back and consider what the Venn diagrams of these fanbases look like.

Game of Thrones (books) fans probably have some crossover with tabletop gaming fans, simply because we nerds tend to read. However, GoT (show) fans are newer, far more numerous, more responsible for the pop culture push, and significantly less likely to cross over into tabletop gaming for any significant period of time if they weren't already players.

I see a lot of GoT wargame boxes being purchased, played a few times, then stuck on a shelf (likely as part of a "Hey look how much of a nerd I am look at all my GoT stuff" display) and essentially forgotten about.

The sort of person who games enough to really grasp *why* Runewars works, compare its mechanics with other wargames, and decide to stick with it is not the same sort of person to be glamoured by the GoT coat of paint. Similarly, the person who grasps the real meat of Runewars isn't the same guy who is going to be glamoured over into Legion, as the mechanics are about as dissimilar as you can get while still technically involving minis, cards, and dice.

I gave Legion a real shot. Heck, go check my painting thread over there. I just sold ALL my Legion models to a local player because it just.... doesn't grab me. It's too much like the half-million other shooty shoot wargames I could be playing and choose not to.

I just don't think these properties are in as much competition for their core fanbase as we tend to assume, and I think the big swings of "OMG TAKE MY MONEYZZZZ" fairweather gamers and pop culture junkie Johnny/Sally Come-Latelies tend to skew our perceptions.

Definitely. The tabletop game is more for the book readers. Getting TV show Thrones fans to play the LCG is like pulling teeth.

I'd argue that pop culture fans wouldn't drop $150 on a starter box (100+ minis, though), but people keep buying Funko dolls so people gotta have more money than sense.

Even with the stuff I don't love about Rune Wars, if I knew I could get in a play session a month with a local meta of 4-8, I'd buy it. (and it'd still work with my Kings of War stuff)

12 minutes ago, qwertyuiop said:

Template movement works for X-wing where engaging and disengaging is constant and trajectory matters. It adds nothing to a rank and file combat game, IMO.

I'm going to have to disagree hard, right here.

Template movement is the only reason the "fog of war" is possible.

One of the most fundamental elements of Runewars is that players must commit a unit to a particular course of action before the game round starts, and this wouldn't work at all without movement templates. They remove *virtually* all guesswork and player fudging from the movement process, conforming units to a common set of possible maneuvers that can then be modified with other templates, restrictions, and allowances.

Furthermore, there is a distinct element of realism to the movement template. I don't know if you've ever marched in formation before, but it's remarkably difficult to get a big group of people all moving in the same direction while maintaining anything like organization or coherency. In order to allow this, formation marching involves executing a series of commonly understood maneuvers that conform, generally, to the array of movement templates in Runewars.

Ranks and files do not react quickly, they do not turn on a dime, and they do not allow for complex moves when the guys sandwiched in the middle don't know what the guys in front are doing. In short, it adds EVERYTHING to a rank and file combat game to make ranks and files move like ranks and files.

EDIT: for accuracy

14 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

I'm going to have to disagree hard, right here.

Template movement is the only reason the "fog of war" is possible.

One of the most fundamental elements of Runewars is that players must commit a unit to a particular course of action before the game round starts, and this wouldn't work at all without movement templates. They remove *virtually* all guesswork and player fudging from the movement process, conforming units to a common set of possible maneuvers that can then be modified with other templates, restrictions, and allowances.

Furthermore, there is a distinct element of realism to the movement template. I don't know if you've ever marched in formation before, but it's remarkably difficult to get a big group of people all moving in the same direction while maintaining anything like organization or coherency. In order to allow this, formation marching involves executing a series of commonly understood maneuvers that conform, generally, to the array of movement templates in Runewars.

Ranks and files do not react quickly, they do not turn on a dime, and they do not allow for complex moves when the guys sandwiched in the middle don't know what the guys in front are doing. In short, it adds EVERYTHING to a rank and file combat game to make ranks and files move like ranks and files.

EDIT: for accuracy

Extra "like" because I could only give you one.

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

I'm going to have to disagree hard, right here.

Template movement is the only reason the "fog of war" is possible.

Definitely.

The command tools are the thing that sets this game apart from all the rest. They give a huge amount of character to the units without requiring special rules for each individual unit. Playing with the elves, you can see their reflexes and slipperiness. The flesh rippers feel like bloodthirsty demons. The zombies act like a lumbering horde. All with two dials and a couple short abilities on the unit cards. No tables, no long lists of rules and exceptions. They are the single reason I've stuck around.

13 minutes ago, Xelto said:

Definitely.

The command tools are the thing that sets this game apart from all the rest. They give a huge amount of character to the units without requiring special rules for each individual unit. Playing with the elves, you can see their reflexes and slipperiness. The flesh rippers feel like bloodthirsty demons. The zombies act like a lumbering horde. All with two dials and a couple short abilities on the unit cards. No tables, no long lists of rules and exceptions. They are the single reason I've stuck around.

BIGTIME. It's amazing how much flavour and mechanics you can pack into those things - change a couple initiative values, a colour or two, and the unit plays completely differently. Excellent stuff.

1 hour ago, Xelto said:

Definitely.

The command tools are the thing that sets this game apart from all the rest. They give a huge amount of character to the units without requiring special rules for each individual unit. Playing with the elves, you can see their reflexes and slipperiness. The flesh rippers feel like bloodthirsty demons. The zombies act like a lumbering horde. All with two dials and a couple short abilities on the unit cards. No tables, no long lists of rules and exceptions. They are the single reason I've stuck around.

One of my favorite things about Runewars is that once you understand the basics off the game and have a few plays under your belt you can look at a new unit's card and dial and understand how it behaves. It is a truly amazing system.