All that have asked, write “master of the fleet“ into youtube and look at the last armada game .. he (captain weather) faces a medium skill raddus drop, but as i said, a similar list did well during euros .. im not gonna scan all the forum posts again, search an you will find ;-). Maybe he mentioned the author in the vid, i dont remember.

6 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

Raddus breaks the game similar to Demo. Drop a ship where ever you want in a perfect spot fresh in the battlefield.

Agreed, Raddus good.

Yav good.

Sloane was/is also good.

Demo also good.

We players have to find a way to play around their strengths and exploit their weaknesses.

6 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Please advise because literally every Imperial player on earth wants to know what this looks like.

Also, and this is genuinely important, aside from Tokra's 8 ship flotilla aces swarm I've never seen an Imp list with the absurd versatility allowed by the current Yav bull****.

Mauler Mithel and Ruthless Strategists with a bunch of bombers apparently.

5 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Guys, before we go off into a tangent about how Yavaris and it's squadrons are broken, and the yes-no back and forth ensues about whether it's impossible to defeat or not, stop and consider what this thread is for.

Gink put together a good list of different carriers for the Rebellion and it might be worth lending the discussion more to that point.

If we want to use this thread as another pow-wow to discuss Yavaris, let's at least keep it in perspective with other Rebel carriers. Specifically we can also mention why/if other carrier builds listed in Gink's post are as potent as a Yavaris drop.

I know it's my fault for bringing Yavaris' power overwhelming into this, but I think we also can't have a discussion on Rebel fighters and their capital ship handlers without acknolwedging how abnormally powerful Yavaris is to everything else in the game.

The problem is that Yavaris can get 4 X-wing attacks for the price of 2. It is kinda hard to compete with that. Other than cost maybe. Or the fact that other ships are more durable than a Nebulon.

What’s troubling is that, when push comes to shove, when many of the best players in the world bring their well-practiced, thought out fleets and generally play them well, Yavaris lists come out on top. Consistently, and not just because people haven’t planned for them, nor due to a lack of experience against them, as Yavaris has been around for years.

That said, EWS gives me some degree of genuine hope. It’s perfect for covering front arcs at long range. The reason I’m not satisfied is because answering with a specific defensive retrofit kills variety. If the Yavaris title were banned overnight (and I’m not advocating for that,) Rebel bombers would be fine. Rieekan, Adar, Ten Numb, Jan, X-wings, B-wings, Toryn and the assortment of excellent Rebel carriers we’re meant to be discussing are entirely sufficient to guarantee that archetype a place in almost any meta.

6 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Guys, before we go off into a tangent about how Yavaris and it's squadrons are broken, and the yes-no back and forth ensues about whether it's impossible to defeat or not, stop and consider what this thread is for.

Gink put together a good list of different carriers for the Rebellion and it might be worth lending the discussion more to that point.

If we want to use this thread as another pow-wow to discuss Yavaris, let's at least keep it in perspective with other Rebel carriers. Specifically we can also mention why/if other carrier builds listed in Gink's post are as potent as a Yavaris drop.

I know it's my fault for bringing Yavaris' power overwhelming into this, but I think we also can't have a discussion on Rebel fighters and their capital ship handlers without acknolwedging how abnormally powerful Yavaris is to everything else in the game.

I would argue you already well discussed this in your earlier post, they fulfill different roles according to what you want your fleet to do.

No dis to Ginkapo, but do we need to discuss about the different upgrade slots and nav charts these ships have?

4 minutes ago, RapidReload said:

All that have asked, write “master of the fleet“ into youtube and look at the last armada game .. he (captain weather) faces a medium skill raddus drop, but as i said, a similar list did well during euros .. im not gonna scan all the forum posts again, search an you will find ;-). Maybe he mentioned the author in the vid, i dont remember.

It's not this battle report is it? In the link that you couldn't provide?

I'll need to review the game when it's not 3am to find out how Yavaris lost. Immediately I can see it's Fleet ambush- decreasing the space towards Yavaris and possibly pummeling on it as soon as turn 1, with an ISD. Depending on how you deployed it might also mean Yavaris can immediately get started on annihilating your forces. As you know it's more than just win-lose, it's also how you play the game. I want to analyze why things went the way they did.

4 minutes ago, RapidReload said:

Agreed, Raddus good.

Yav good.

Sloane was/is also good.

Demo also good.

We players have to find a way to play around their strengths and exploit their weaknesses.

Well, last Worlds it seemed like everyone ended up with Rieekan to block Yavaris drops. The one VSD that showed up (and the only VSD to appear in a top event) was designed to wipe Raddus, as well. Raddus fell away on Day 2, replaced by a ton of Rieekan lists if I recall.

Rieekan lists with Yavaris.

1 minute ago, The Jabbawookie said:

What’s troubling is that, when push comes to shove, when many of the best players in the world bring their well-practiced, thought out fleets and generally play them well, Yavaris lists come out on top. Consistently, and not just because people haven’t planned for them, nor due to a lack of experience against them, as they’ve been around for years.

That said, EWS gives me some degree of genuine hope. It’s perfect for covering front arcs at long range. The reason I’m not satisfied is because answering with a specific defensive retrofit kills variety. If the Yavaris title were banned overnight (and I’m not advocating for that,) Rebel bombers would be fine. Rieekan, Adar, Ten Numb, Jan, X-wings, Toryn and the assortment of excellent Rebel carriers we’re meant to be discussing are entirely sufficient to guarantee that archetype a place in almost any meta.

I dont think there was enough time at worlds after the faq.

At Euros lists were much more varied and only one yav in the cut. As was one raddus, one demolisher and one Gink.

3 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

If the Yavaris title were banned overnight (and I’m not advocating for that,) Rebel bombers would be fine. Rieekan, Adar, Ten Numb, Jan, X-wings, B-wings, Toryn and the assortment of excellent Rebel carriers we’re meant to be discussing are entirely sufficient to guarantee that archetype a place in almost any meta.

I concur. Things would feel a bit more balanced. Rebel fighters are good, robust things, but Yavaris takes thier supremacy to disgusting levels. I (and I imagine others, like Blail) would be less irked by Rebel squadrons if Yavaris didn't allow such abuse out of their squads.

Maybe Nebs should be dropped to squadron 1. Double-tapping 2 squads feels exceptional. 3 is too much. Especially when Rebels also have an officer that lets you un-toggle friendly activation sliders!

3 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

It's not this battle report is it? In the link that you couldn't provide?

I'll need to review the game when it's not 3am to find out how Yavaris lost. Immediately I can see it's Fleet ambush- decreasing the space towards Yavaris and possibly pummeling on it as soon as turn 1, with an ISD. Depending on how you deployed it might also mean Yavaris can immediately get started on annihilating your forces. As you know it's more than just win-lose, it's also how you play the game. I want to analyze why things went the way they did.

Well, last Worlds it seemed like everyone ended up with Rieekan to block Yavaris drops. The one VSD that showed up (and the only VSD to appear in a top event) was designed to wipe Raddus, as well. Raddus fell away on Day 2, replaced by a ton of Rieekan lists if I recall.

Rieekan lists with Yavaris.

Just for you, as mentioned, in the video he faced a raddus drop.

The guy who played it at euros was called eric rouyer apparently.

7 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

Mauler Mithel and Ruthless Strategists with a bunch of bombers apparently.

The problem is that Yavaris can get 4 X-wing attacks for the price of 2. It is kinda hard to compete with that. Other than cost maybe. Or the fact that other ships are more durable than a Nebulon.

Actually no. Yes Yavaris can make 2 Xwings attack twice, however they have half the hull of 4xwings, half the flexibility and half the escort. Aces make up for the loss in hull with brace tokens. Generics do not.

The reason I started this is because too often I see people set out to build a carrier fleet and pick Yavaris as the first component followed by the requisit aces to make it worthwhile.

There are many options available which produce different fleet compositions, we just need to quit considering Yavaris as an auto include as there are many other viable options available.

It was a discussion starter.

Call me narrow-minded but I consider Yavaris to be the base of any Rebel squadron heavy fleet. Everything else is a matter of preference. Yavaris is not. It's not just that it provides very cheap attacks. It selectively boosts the part of your roster that is the most useful in any given situation. Any squadron based fleet aims to do 2 things:

1 Win the squadron minigame as early as possible. If you lose it or you take too long, you'll probably be overwhelmed by enemy ships.

2 Destroy the key components of the enemy fleet before they can do too much damage.

Typically each squadron you have is very efficient at achieving one of these goals but not the other, which is a particularly acute problem on the imperial side. Rebel squadrons are more versatile, but with perhaps the exception of Ten Nunb even they aren't truly efficient in both roles. Wedge is a squadron killing machine but you're definitely overpaying if you use him just to attack ships. Keyan is an absolute terror to ships, but he's got lower anti-squadron firepower than a lowly Z-95, that is nearly 3 times cheaper.

What makes Yavaris so powerful is that he effectively multiplies the part of your roster that is best suited to the task at hand, allowing you to take a balanced composition of fighters and bombers but act as if in fact you had either abnormally large anti-squadron escort or an unusually big number of bombers in your fleet, depending on what you need.

There are only 2 other cards in the game (Adar and Jendon) that provide something similar and both are much weaker and more expensive (although somewhat easier to use). In my eyes that makes Yavaris irreplaceable. If you're planning on building a rebel squadron fleet and don't start with Yavaris, you're probably doing it wrong.

Im a fan of Master of the Fleet, and I've played a few times vs Weather on vassal (I think, feel free to correct me @Captain Weather if I'm wrong it's been a while and I'd like a rematch).

There are several answers to Demo now in the game including heavy squadron cover (working as far back as the first World tournament with triple AF2s and A-Wings) and vicious combat arcs that rival an ISD (MC80H1, DCAP VSD2 or Interdictor, Admonition etc). Demo isn't perfect, but instead fills a niche for Imperial players that other ships don't (Assassin). Yavaris circumvents the limits of Demolisher because it's limits are defined by other units, thre v squadrons it can activate.

The imp fleet being discussed:

ISD-Kuat

Grand Admiral Thrawn, Governor Pryce, Chimaera, Ruthless Strategists, Early Warning Systems, Ordnance Pods, Leading Shots, All Fighters, Follow Me!

GSD-II

Demolisher, Agent Kallus, Ruthless Strategists, External Racks

Gozanti

Comms Net

Gozanti

Comms Net

Mauler Mithel, JumpMaster 5000, 5x TIE Bomber, Lambda Shuttle

Advanced Gunnery, Fire Lanes, Superior Positions

397pts

https://intelsweep.wordpress.com/2018/06/03/the-overnight-report-euros-top-cut/

4 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

The imp fleet being discussed:

ISD-Kuat

Grand Admiral Thrawn, Governor Pryce, Chimaera, Ruthless Strategists, Early Warning Systems, Ordnance Pods, Leading Shots, All Fighters, Follow Me!

GSD-II

Demolisher, Agent Kallus, Ruthless Strategists, External Racks

Gozanti

Comms Net

Gozanti

Comms Net

Mauler Mithel, JumpMaster 5000, 5x TIE Bomber, Lambda Shuttle

Advanced Gunnery, Fire Lanes, Superior Positions

397pts

https://intelsweep.wordpress.com/2018/06/03/the-overnight-report-euros-top-cut/

Unplayable in the North American top tourney meta. Both ships rely on close range attacks despite zero bod and the TIE/b is a sitting duck for enemy squadron balls if it goes 2nd.

None of this is intended to disparage the player, just describe ther problems

2 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Unplayable in the North American top tourney meta. Both ships rely on close range attacks despite zero bod and the TIE/b is a sitting duck for enemy squadron balls if it goes 2nd.

None of this is intended to disparage the player, just describe ther problems 

Lets agree to disagree, my original point was that not the list makes the difference. How you play it is usually more important. At least on that, I assume, we can agree.

20 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

Call me narrow-minded but I consider Yavaris to be the base of any Rebel heavy squadron list.

In a 134pt multiple aces squadron wing Yavaris stands very high in the rankings. My issue is that not every rebel list should be a 134pt multiple aces list. Starting out with Yavaris forces the fleet build.

15 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Unplayable in the North American top tourney meta. Both ships rely on close range attacks despite zero bod and the TIE/b is a sitting duck for enemy squadron balls if it goes 2nd.

None of this is intended to disparage the player, just describe ther problems

If this was true the Clonisher would never have existed and Snipa wouldnt have done so well at Worlds. Pryce works wonders.

16 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Unplayable in the North American top tourney meta. Both ships rely on close range attacks despite zero bod and the TIE/b is a sitting duck for enemy squadron balls if it goes 2nd.

None of this is intended to disparage the player, just describe ther problems

The list does very well in current meta, where people take either full squadrons or none at all. In the former case Ruthless strategists will just wipe out pretty much the entire squadron presence, leaving the enemy carriers unprotected against the ISD. In the latter bombers have a field day.

I'd like to talk about the Pelta now ? .

I like it a lot. Brace and Evade is such a powerful combination for defense tokens. AFFM with Flight commander is just great for these slow Rebel Bombers. Phoenix Home allows you to also have Adar Tallon or similar. Boosted Comms allows you to stay out of danger (somewhat). Engine Techs combined with that nav chart is awesome. Generating tokens can be hard though.

Its expensive but can be very very good.

11 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

In a 134pt multiple aces squadron wing Yavaris stands very high in the rankings. My issue is that not every rebel list should be a 134pt multiple aces list. Starting out with Yavaris forces the fleet build.

Fair enough. If you aim to spam generics you don't need Yavaris. I've seen this work before the flotilla nerf, with an ungodly number of flotillas (6 or so!), Admonition and a huge bid. Obviously it's not viable anymore, but if you can find some way to command 10-12 squadrons in a cost-effective way, you might try a no-Yavaris squadron fleet.

You might also try a medium-sized squadron presence, in which case you might not need Yavaris either, but these are rare these days and for a good reason.

12 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

What about a hammerhead (Scout preferred) with expanded hangar bays and flight controllers?

It's a great theory, but worked poorly for me in practice. Hammerheads live and die by speed adjustment, so I had difficulty keep them alive while they were spamming squadron commands. I also ran them with Cracken, so that was the secondary issue. They may be worthwhile, but frankly Rebs just don't need Flight Controllers to be successful. The one legit carrier with a weapon team slot, MC75 Armored, I feel is better off going the Ruthless Strategists route.

15 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

The Classic “BLT” – Assault Frigate Mark II B with Gallant Haven Title, Flight Controllers, Boosted Comms and Electronic Countermeasures – 97 points

Why are you taking BC with GH? EHB is a much better option with FC. Did people actually run BC with GH?

I present, for your consideration, the MC75 super flak:

MC75 Armored Cruiser (104 + 22)
+ Strategic Adviser (4)
+ Ruthless Strategists (4)
+ Electronic Countermeasures (7)
+ Leading Shots (4)
+ Ordnance Pods (3)

It is intended to used alongside a Y-Wing swarm. The Ord Pods allow it to trigger RS twice in a turn should enemy fighters be foolish enough to wander into close range. I've used it effectively a couple times now. I like it, but I need to tweak the details of the list a bit more.

19 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

I present, for your consideration, the MC75 super flak:

MC75 Armored Cruiser (104 + 22)
+ Strategic Adviser (4)
+ Ruthless Strategists (4)
+ Electronic Countermeasures (7)
+ Leading Shots (4)
+ Ordnance Pods (3)

It is intended to used alongside a Y-Wing swarm. The Ord Pods allow it to trigger RS twice in a turn should enemy fighters be foolish enough to wander into close range. I've used it effectively a couple times now. I like it, but I need to tweak the details of the list a bit more.

I would love to try this. I like how much you get for your 7 pts of anti squad here. Seems affordable next to tech used in other fleets to do similar things....

20 minutes ago, moodswing5537 said:

I would love to try this. I like how much you get for your 7 pts of anti squad here. Seems affordable next to tech used in other fleets to do similar things....

One of the two games I've gotten with it was against a squadronless fleet. I did not feel handicapped on anyway and didn't really miss External Racks as I expected. My main problem has been how defensive and reactionary the fleet feels as opposed to the aggressive mentality I usually prefer. The same can be said for most Yavaris lists, hence why I don't run them anymore. My latest (and untested) version of the full list looks like this:

Y-Wings (400/400)
================
MC75 Armored Cruiser (104 + 45)
+ General Dodonna (20)
+ Bail Organa (7)
+ Ruthless Strategists (4)
+ Electronic Countermeasures (7)
+ Leading Shots (4)
+ Ordnance Pods (3)
Modified Pelta-class Command Ship (60 + 9)
+ All Fighters, Follow Me! (5)
+ Boosted Comms (4)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 14)
+ Bomber Command Center (8)
+ Boosted Comms (4)
+ Bright Hope (2)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18)

2 x X-wing Squadron (2 x 13)
HWK-290 (12)
Gold Squadron (12)
HWK-290 (12)
7 x Y-wing Squadron (7 x 10)

Superior Positions
Contested Outpost
Station Assault

Compared to previous versions, I've dropped EHB off of the flotillas and replaced a TRC90 with the Pelta. I changed out the SA for Bail. I also changed out 2x YT1300s for X-Wings to upgrade the speed.

1 minute ago, Truthiness said:

One of the two games I've gotten with it was against a squadronless fleet. I did not feel handicapped on anyway and didn't really miss External Racks as I expected. My main problem has been how defensive and reactionary the fleet feels as opposed to the aggressive mentality I usually prefer. The same can be said for most Yavaris lists, hence why I don't run them anymore. My latest (and untested) version of the full list looks like this:

Y-Wings (400/400)
================
MC75 Armored Cruiser (104 + 45)
+ General Dodonna (20)
+ Bail Organa (7)
+ Ruthless Strategists (4)
+ Electronic Countermeasures (7)
+ Leading Shots (4)
+ Ordnance Pods (3)
Modified Pelta-class Command Ship (60 + 9)
+ All Fighters, Follow Me! (5)
+ Boosted Comms (4)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 14)
+ Bomber Command Center (8)
+ Boosted Comms (4)
+ Bright Hope (2)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
2 x X-wing Squadron (2 x 13)
HWK-290 (12)
Gold Squadron (12)
HWK-290 (12)
7 x Y-wing Squadron (7 x 10)
Superior Positions
Contested Outpost
Station Assault

No yt-1300 for hull sink?