For all its faults, one thing I enjoyed about Saga Edition was that there was lots of love in the system for all different styles of fighting. One weapon or two, pistols or rifles or lightsabers, you could make equally effective combat characters whichever arsenal you chose.

In EotE, on the other hand, I've struggled to make a character focused around fighting with a single pistol (Han Solo style) who can compete with rifle-armed characters. That extra 2-3 points of damage from a rifle makes a huge difference in terms of how much damage gets past soak. Gunslinger is an OK spec, but only if you fight with two pistols. It's worthless for a single-wielder.

Can anyone recommend a way to bring pistols up to the level of rifles? Is this just something that requires a custom talent tree?

Well, they are situationally superior, for example when engaged in melee or whenever you aren't in a lawless backwater where you can openly carry a (powerful) rifle.

It’s all about which ranged skill you are focused on and how much you have upgraded your weapon.

Pistols are also more easily concealed than rifles. And there is the aforementioned issue of places not allowing open carry of heavy rifles.

An upgraded heavy blaster pistol hits as hard as a stock heavy blaster rifle, with lower crit values and the advantage of being less conspicuous. It’s also cheaper and easier to acquire.

Single Pistols can of course be viewed as the weapon for characters who aren’t dedicated for combat. If you are a pistol focused combat character, dual pistols is for you. Single pistol is for characters that are support.

So I think it’s ok for pistols to be ‘worse’ than rifles in terms of raw damage. Because otherwise why lug around a big rifle?

18 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

If you are a pistol focused combat character, dual pistols is for you. Single pistol is for characters that are support.

I don't think of Han Solo as a support character.

I just slapped together this minor modification of the Gunslinger tree for a PC who fights with one pistol. What do people think?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UokS4egJwpTbZqx_PHq0F_c7Cd5eJlDz

Another thing to add is, as others have said, some pistols do as much damage as a rifle, therefore, the only real downside to using a pistol is its shorter range. Even then, there are several pistols with a very impressive range.

Solo is definitely a support character. He is the pilot/face character. He isn’t a combat oriented character, at least not ground combat.

that is to say he’s bad at combat. It’s just not his main purpose.

Bounty Hunter, Gadgeteer/Assassin. Destroy targets with a single pistol .

It is easier to hide a pistol on your person as you wonder through polite society. A pistol in your jacket is better than a rifle back on the ship.

Or even impolite society. Rifles are a pain in the backside to haul around.

If you've got a spec that offers Deadly Accuracy (add your skill ranks to the damage of a category of weapon), then pistols can become very dangerous in the hands of a PC with 4 or 5 ranks of Ranged (Light), enabling them to deal damage equivalent to what a character with a blaster rifle can dish out. I actually built a Knight-Level Soldier/Sharpshooter a long while back that used a heavy blaster pistol that could dish out some pretty hefty damage, especially if he took the time to Aim (gotta love True Aim!) before taking the shot. Add in the overcharge valve (Fly Casual) and you've got one shot that packs a heck of a punch. Granted, you're out of ammo after that one shot, but said shot is gonna be a doozy.

6 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

For all its faults, one thing I enjoyed about Saga Edition was that there was lots of love in the system for all different styles of fighting. One weapon or two, pistols or rifles or lightsabers, you could make equally effective combat characters whichever arsenal you chose.

In EotE, on the other hand, I've struggled to make a character focused around fighting with a single pistol (Han Solo style) who can compete with rifle-armed characters. That extra 2-3 points of damage from a rifle makes a huge difference in terms of how much damage gets past soak. Gunslinger is an OK spec, but only if you fight with two pistols. It's worthless for a single-wielder.

Can anyone recommend a way to bring pistols up to the level of rifles? Is this just something that requires a custom talent tree?

You could go for a more crit oriented build. With the "Equalizer" or the Model 80 blaster pistol you have pistols available with a crit rating of 2. You can even lower this to 1 with the Enhanced Xciter attachment. I think there have not any crit rating 2 rifles been published (yet), only bigger blaster cannons or highly illegal disruptor weapons.

3 hours ago, 2P51 said:

Bounty Hunter, Gadgeteer/Assassin. Destroy targets with a single pistol .

Yes, then add deadly accuracy and 3 ranks in lethal blows to your jury rigged, tinkered blaster pistol.

A Mercenary Soldier can also make an excellent pistol user, especially at short and engaged range. They get 2 Point Blank Ranks, Natural Marksman, 2 True Aim, Deadly Accuracy and even a rank of Lethal Blows. They probably have the most potential out of any edge spec for pure damage. For a long term character they can either take the Last One Standing Signature Ability, or they can choose between Gadgeteer (Jury Rig and another Point Blank), or Marshal (More social and two more Point Blank).

Those two combinations can be adding 9 extra damage to a hit at short or Engaged range... for zero cost during the session! (no manoeuvre, no strain, no Destiny Point)

17 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

Can anyone recommend a way to bring pistols up to the level of rifles? Is this just som  ething that requires a custom talent tree? 

This isn't all that different from asking whether melee weapons should be able to attack at range, too, to bring them up to the level of ranged weapons. Different types of weapons have situational advantages and disadvantages beyond just their stat blocks.

16 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

m  elee  weapons should be able to a    ttack  at r  an  ge

There’s a talent for that, Improved Sabre Throw... ?

11 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

There’s a talent for that, Improved Sabre Throw... ?

Sure, but I doubt you think that talent is needed to make lightsabers equally devastating as pistols and rifles.

Only at range! But im just joking around, and I definitely agree that Damage/Crit/Range are not the only ways to measure a weapons strengths. Just the simple fact that you can drive and shoot with a pistol at the same time is a perfect example of where a pistol is far better than a rifle

X-30 Lancer: Blaster Actuating Module, Custom Grip and Rapid Recharge Exciter. If you can manage all the mods you end up with (before any talents)

Enc: 1; Range: Long; Damage: 8; Crit: 4; Special: Accurate 2, Auto-fire, Inaccurate 1, Pierce 4; 3450 credits total; Rarity 5

All but a baseline heavy blaster rifle(Dam: 10, Crit: 3 with Auto-fire and Cumbersome 3 with Enc: 6), but on your hip and inconspicuous...until you use it anyway. lol.

1 hour ago, Jareth Valar said:

X-30 Lancer: Blaster Actuating Module, Custom Grip and Rapid Recharge Exciter. If you can manage all the mods you end up with (before any talents)

Enc: 1; Range: Long; Damage: 8; Crit: 4; Special: Accurate 2, Auto-fire, Inaccurate 1, Pierce 4; 3450 credits total; Rarity 5

All but a baseline heavy blaster rifle(Dam: 10, Crit: 3 with Auto-fire and Cumbersome 3 with Enc: 6), but on your hip and inconspicuous...until you use it anyway. lol.

Note that the 'Inaccurate 1' on that pistol is essentially negated by the Custom Grip (negates the first setback die). Also, note that this particular weapon does not have a stun setting, which will be problematic if you need to take an opponent alive...

The basic problem with most of the suggestions in this thread is: You can generally take the same options with a rifle and maintain a significant damage lead over pistol builds. Rifles get a significant headstart in the damage race and pistols just can't catch up if the rifles put in a similar effort: In theory, the best you could do is reach a point where the extra damage from a rifle is just 'gross overkill' (i.e., the pistol damage is enough to one-shot your target anyway, so who cares about the extra damage the rifle would have done), or dual-wield (which has its own drawbacks).

The core issue is unfortunately a pretty basic one: If a pistol performs as well as a rifle, why would anyone ever use a rifle?

The 'advantage' of pistols tends to be their less conspicuous nature, but this opens up a series of debates on 'reality vs. star wars reality vs. gameplay'

• In real life, someone walking around town with a heavy weapon is going to attract a lot of attention from authorities.
• In the Star Wars movies, it seems IG-88 would have been kicked out of the Mos Eisley cantina for being a droid, but not for his weapons...
  • Granted, Mos Eisley was a 'wretched hive of scum and villany' so that might not be the best example, but the next movie did feature an array of fully armed and armored bounty hunters (including several aliens) on the bridge of an imperial command ship, which seems fairly unwise (granted, Vader probably wasn't afraid of them, but still...)
• From a gameplay perspective, allowing a character to invest heavily in a weapon/equipment but then preventing them from actually bringing it with them is fairly problematic.
  • Will rifles be barred from specific encounters? Most encounters? Will you be stopped by customs if you step off your ship with one? Is Boba Fett ever stopped by security forces because he is carrying a carbine?
  • Are pistol similarly barred but easier to conceal?
  • What about body armor? How much attention does a character in heavy armor attract?

54 minutes ago, Ominovin said:

From a gameplay perspective, allowing a character to invest heavily in a weapon/equipment but then preventing them from actually bringing it with them is fairly problematic.

Pilots can't bring their starship into the cantina. Jedi can't whip out their iconic weapon without inviting all kinds of unwanted attention. This creates problems for the characters, yes, but that's not the same as being problematic. Every challenge is an opportunity to roleplay your character. Does your PCs just capitulate in the face of slight resistance? Do they conceal their weapons, or do they abide by the law that bans guns? Do they step out of the cockpit and into the fire, or do they bring a starship to a blaster fight? Presenting PCs with limitations and challenges allows players to engage with the game world and reveal/create the personality of their PCs.

2 hours ago, Ominovin said:

• From a gameplay perspective, allowing a character to invest heavily in a weapon/equipment but then preventing them from actually bringing it with them is fairly problematic.
  • Will rifles be barred from specific encounters? Most encounters? Will you be stopped by customs if you step off your ship with one? Is Boba Fett ever stopped by security forces because he is carrying a carbine?
  • Are pistol similarly barred but easier to conceal?
  • What about body armor? How much attention does a character in heavy armor attract?

The flip side is that if you never put any narrative roadblocks in front of PCs where's the challenge? It just becomes a comparison of quality of random dice generators imo. In the movies, pretty much all of them, the heroes are never prepared enough, always get caught flat footed, and have to improvise and come up with inventive solutions to the problem without 'the right tool', that's why they're heroes.

I always tell my players that they are going to be challenged, that they had best be multi-skilled, and if they put all their xp eggs in one basket that's on them, not me. Someone who pours all their money and xp into being good with one item is making a dice pool with a name, not a character.

3 hours ago, Ominovin said:

Note that the 'Inaccurate 1' on that pistol is essentially negated by the Custom Grip (negates the first setback die).

I think Jareth is correct. You get one setback from the BAM and one setback from the Rapid Recharge Exciter. Only one of them can be negated by the Custom Grip.

3 hours ago, Ominovin said:

The basic problem with most of the suggestions in this thread is: You can generally take the same options with a rifle and maintain a significant damage lead over pistol builds. Rifles get a significant headstart in the damage race and pistols just can't catch up if the rifles put in a similar effort: In theory, the best you could do is reach a point where the extra damage from a rifle is just 'gross overkill' (i.e., the pistol damage is enough to one-shot your target anyway, so who cares about the extra damage the rifle would have done), or dual-wield (which has its own drawbacks).

I agree, pistols can hardly win the damage race, that is why I recommended a crit focused approach as Plan B ;-)

11 hours ago, Ominovin said:

• From a gameplay perspective, allowing a character to invest heavily in a weapon/equipment but then preventing them from actually bringing it with them is fairly problematic.
  • Will rifles be barred from specific encounters? Most encounters? Will you be stopped by customs if you step off your ship with one? Is Boba Fett ever stopped by security forces because he is carrying a carbine?
  • Are pistol similarly barred but easier to conceal?
  • What about body armor? How much attention does a character in heavy armor attract?

I guess this is a perspective I've never encountered at my tables. The PC's in our games learn the laws, social norms, etc of the places they visit and adjust accordingly. Heavy combat armor may be fine in one place and attract immediate attention in another. Mos Eisley, Canto Bight, and Cloud City are different places with different expectations. IMO an entertaining game will reflect that. NPC's should react to decisions the PC's make.

On 6/16/2018 at 4:39 AM, Stan Fresh said:

This isn't all that different from asking whether melee weapons should be able to attack at range, too, to bring them up to the level of ranged weapons. Different types of weapons have situational advantages and disadvantages beyond just their stat blocks.

But melee weapons do have a stat advantage over ranged: melee skill uses Brawn, which means you get both soak and weapon skill from the same stat. High soak is a huge advantage.

14 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

But melee weapons do have a stat advantage over ranged: melee skill uses Brawn, which means you get both soak and weapon skill from the same stat. High soak is a huge advantage.

And if you're a vehicle-focused melee combatant that becomes a disadvantage, since you now have two important abilities.

You can't look at that stuff in isolation.

Just now, Stan Fresh said:

And if you're a vehicle-focused melee combatant that becomes a disadvantage, since you now have two important abilities.

You can't look at that stuff in isolation.

Right, but there are some stats advantages to melee, as opposed to none (except maybe the crit rating) for pistols.