I recently readed Joe's article about what he believes to be the main reason for scorpion and crab domination in koteis, the ability to trade strategy between breaking provinces or victory for dishonor.
At the same time the developers have sometimes said that victory by honor is the least interactive of the game, and so they did not give so much emphasis to it, which I totally agree.
But I see a certain dilemma: I find the card-buying / honor-transfer system great, but while some clans can more effectively punish opponents who buy many cards, their mechanics of dishonor either stealing honor or discarding their opponent's cards, and for other clans it is very difficult to take advantage of this.
Today as Lion player, but I see this problem mainly in other clans like Dragon and Unicorn, in case my opponent wants to buy many cards I have little to take advantage from this, in the case of the lion there are still a few cards like obstinate recruit, but nothing like threatening the opponent to lose the game, which is the case of dishonor.
Of course there is the way of chrysanthemum, which is a fragile card and nothing comparable to the pool of cards that make the dishonor system work.
My point is: If victory by honor is uninteresting for the good of the game, then I think it would be plausible that all clans need to have honor stealing mechanics (instead of honoring a character or gaining 1 honor after winning a conflict), to leave the game more democratic.

What do you think about it?

Agree.

Unicorn has ZERO in-clan honor, dishonor, attachment control, or event control. We start with the lowest honor and only have Yurts to get honor (which benefits you as well...). Other than our lack of stats and abilities, we're at the bottom because our only chance is victory through Military conquest. Unless you tech a jank honor-run deck or splash Crab for WC - both auto-losses against Policy Debate - you simply can't beat Crab who is better at Military and Scorpion who can dishonor us in two-three rounds AND beat us in conquest.

If Unicorn could reliably honor themselves (high glory), it would go a long ways toward being competitive.

Honestly, I've been seeing the beginnings of a dishonor switch deck for dragon since some of the early spoilers from the imperial cycle, and we've gotten some more of the pieces since then, the pieces just aren't all there yet, and frankly, it'll likely be a while before they are, because the monk deck is significantly closer, and given the themes of the elemental cycle I find it significantly more likely that that'll get support, whereas the kitsuki dishonor switch only got indirect support in the form of master alchemist, and even that is a broadly useful card in both the voltron and the monk builds. We'll need at least one more (preferably at least two more) in clan courtiers, preferably with decent abilities, a few in clan conflict cards that help towards the dishonor pressure, and probably other things too. Granted, I still contend we are closer to pulling that off than some other clans, like unicorn or lion, but even just one more decent courtier would go a long way to helping us keep up with dishonor switch.

I've reduced to drawing cards but the same applies to playing any cards that have honor cost like you can easily play 2 assassinations against uni, dragon or Lion, while against another decks this could cost you the game for sure..

Just now, L5RBr said:

I've reduced to drawing cards but the same applies to playing any cards that have honor cost like you can easily play 2 assassinations against uni, dragon or Lion, while against another decks this could cost you the game for sure..

With Banzai and Captive Audience, Unicorn playing more than 1 Assassination is suicide. Scorp can play all 3 no sweat.

Another problem for honor running clans is there are not as many equivalents to fuel it as there are for dishonoring. They also tend to be more expensive in multiple ways. Watch Commander is a 1 cost attachment that gives +1/+1 and can be used an unlimited number of times per turn. Honored Blade is a 1 cost attachment with +2/+0, the Restricted trait, and can only be used once per turn on winning a conflict. There is nothing really equivalent to Backhanded Compliment or Levy among the Crane and Lion. Guard Duty is 1 cost, Keeper only, and telegraphs itself. Test of Courage costs 1 and requires a lower bid, it is nice when it works can be hard to pull off.

Way of the Chrysanthemum does make a first conflict honor victory theoretically possible in Lion, and first turn for Crane (first conflict if splashing Lion). However it requires giving your opponent a lot of advantage over you and all of the stars to align. Mostly I like to use it as a threat, or to buffer card advantage. Personally I would rather have had more cards that give a small help towards conflict victory and a smaller honor gain.

Pride is a double edged sword. Generally a player needs to be bidding low for honor victories which makes conflicts harder to win.

Some future Crane and Lion characters I think will help with all of this, by locking bids low, allowing ignoring defense, ect.

4 minutes ago, GM81 Protocol Droid said:

Another problem for honor running clans is there are not as many equivalents to fuel it as there are for dishonoring. They also tend to be more expensive in multiple ways. Watch Commander is a 1 cost attachment that gives +1/+1 and can be used an unlimited number of times per turn. Honored Blade is a 1 cost attachment with +2/+0, the Restricted trait, and can only be used once per turn on winning a conflict. There is nothing really equivalent to Backhanded Compliment or Levy among the Crane and Lion. Guard Duty is 1 cost, Keeper only, and telegraphs itself. Test of Courage costs 1 and requires a lower bid, it is nice when it works can be hard to pull off.

Way of the Chrysanthemum does make a first conflict honor victory theoretically possible in Lion, and first turn for Crane (first conflict if splashing Lion). However it requires giving your opponent a lot of advantage over you and all of the stars to align. Mostly I like to use it as a threat, or to buffer card advantage. Personally I would rather have had more cards that give a small help towards conflict victory and a smaller honor gain.

Pride is a double edged sword. Generally a player needs to be bidding low for honor victories which makes conflicts harder to win.

Some future Crane and Lion characters I think will help with all of this, by locking bids low, allowing ignoring defense, ect.

Kage will go a long way to helping Lion there as his forced low opponent bid will help. Other than that yeah its rough.

The strength of Spirit Caller are sadly an anchor on Lion design as most characters end up slightly understated to compensate for the semi-free nature that he grants them.

Other than an injection of cards, which would be preferred by all, consider reducing the Honor Victory to 20. Strongholds start between 10-12 honor. Losing honor is relatively easier than gaining honor. In addition, just the presence of Way of Chrysanthemum would immediately reduce the first turn bid 5 strategy by all clans. This, in turn, would reduce the velocity of the dishonor victory. Just consider all options is all I'm suggesting.

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1 hour ago, Schmoozies said:

Kage will go a long way to helping Lion there as his forced low opponent bid will help. Other than that yeah its rough.

The strength of Spirit Caller are sadly an anchor on Lion design as most characters end up slightly understated to compensate for the semi-free nature that he grants them.

I really dont see kage as an answer to any Lion issues, for 4 cost he has 2 cost stats and his ability is something maybe I would like to see in a holding. The only way I see him as a good 4 cost character is If they launch some really strong duels, but I have the impression devs were thinking something like "If Lion could keep 1-1 bid they will be in a good advantage" With the actual cardpool I would not run It even without the "more honorable" restriction.

But back on topic Im not claiming honor victory to be easier, but at least honor techs need to be usefull and punish opponents for having less honor, like a card that gives you +2pol or +4 If you have higher honor, or like I've said stealing honor instead of gaining 1 honor or drawing a card.

29 minutes ago, L5RBr said:

I really dont see kage as an answer to any Lion issues, for 4 cost he has 2 cost stats and his ability is something maybe I would like to see in a holding. The only way I see him as a good 4 cost character is If they launch some really strong duels, but I have the impression devs were thinking something like "If Lion could keep 1-1 bid they will be in a good advantage" With the actual cardpool I would not run It even without the "more honorable" restriction.

But back on topic Im not claiming honor victory to be easier, but at least honor techs need to be usefull and punish opponents for having less honor, like a card that gives you +2pol or +4 If you have higher honor, or like I've said stealing honor instead of gaining 1 honor or drawing a card.

He is stated exactly the same as Miya Satoshi is and has an arguably better ability than Miya Satoshi. Definitely not 2 cost in stats, the best 4 cost currently have 7 stats so far and I doubt they will go any higher than that. So 4 cost for 6 stats may not be the highest yet, but it is still up there (and frankly is probably the average 4 cost stats). Whether or not you think his ability is good, he is a definite replacement for Miya Satoshi for Lions who play him.

Personally I feel that, even though we are almost a year into the game, we still have not explored all the ways to leverage our honor bids in a way that is based on a long term strategy which is geared towards an honor win.

Most people seem to think that low bidding is the only way to win by honor and this is simply not true. This is compounded by the fact that forcing your opponent out on dishonor natuarally occurs first when you consider that the majority of decks are packing cards that cause a minimum of 8 points of honor loss.

Oops double post.

Yes, but that is exactly the point, the mechanics of dishonor are more interactive because the opponent will have to make choices between using or not cards that causes honor loss, which are normally great cards and so they're present in almost every deck, such as assassination , banzai, captive audience, etc.
Meanwhile, the honor mechanics are tied to bid and cards like Honored Blade or card draw (again tying honor gains with low-bidding), with little interactivity between players.
Of course, a card like assassination that instead of losing 3 honor causes your opponent to win 3 honor might sound strange, but this is an example of how interactive cards would be for the honor system.
Another example would be to compare (not saying that one is better than another, just analyzing the value within the honor / dishonor strategy) the Gifted Tactician with the Blackmail Artist. At first look they may seem to be mirrors, after all buying an extra card is the same as exchanging 1 honor in the draw phase. However there is a relevant difference about strategy: With Blackmail Artist you choose whether you want to trade the honor for one more draw or not. If your opponent has been abusing cards like Banzai and Assassination and has 2 honor you certainly will not trade this honor for an extra draw.
So I advocate the theory that to make victory by honor more relevant or interactive, honor-stealing mechanics need to be thinked for all clans, rather than indirect supports such as buying or discarding cards or unilateral gain / loss of honor.

I see what you're getting at, my concern is that you end up with games where two players simply trade honor back and forth for an hour and then go to tie breakers, or you have some clans with conquest options that are capable of out-racing honor/dishonor and others clans that do not......and now we have effectively reset the clock to exactly what we were getting in the CCG, and personally, as much as I loved the CCG, I did not enjoy the amount of non-interactive play that this type design approach tends to breed.

17 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I see what you're getting at, my concern is that you end up with games where two players simply trade honor back and forth for an hour and then go to tie breakers, or you have some clans with conquest options that are capable of out-racing honor/dishonor and others clans that do not......and now we have effectively reset the clock to exactly what we were getting in the CCG, and personally, as much as I loved the CCG, I did not enjoy the amount of non-interactive play that this type design approach tends to breed.

Yes this could happen but this is why Conquest was designed to be the main path to victory in n5r.

And what do we have now? A system that have synergy and interactivity and this is proved with now what? 10 koteis all won by the same clans?

If the game gets stucked on honor racing, then the clans go to Conquest, I think ALL clans need and have ways to do it, in old5R It was Very diferent since honor/dishonor were very focused and non interactive decks with 0 probability of winning by Conquest.

Personally I think they have done well at keeping Honor and Dishonor interactive. I don't want to see that go away. The honor dial does feel like a very interactive design for it. At the least, your opponent is always making a choice with it. Honored Blade being tied to winning conflicts seems right to me as well, I just felt like it should have been a Once Per Conflict ability to work with the various ready and movement tech options. But maybe that was too strong.

We do have some tech that benefit being high honor among the Lion (Obstinate Recruit, Venerable Historian and Steadfast Samurai) and I feel like we will see more among at least some of the clans. Maybe some neutral characters too. I think what we need are some events to trigger off of it. Just as we will see Scorpion cards that trigger off of 6- honor, I want to see some cards that trigger off of 19+ honor. They probably would not be as powerful since that is a bit of a win more situation. The new Earth role only attachment seems sort of meh to me.

10 minutes ago, GM81 Protocol Droid said:

Personally I think they have done well at keeping Honor and Dishonor interactive. I don't want to see that go away. The honor dial does feel like a very interactive design for it. At the least, your opponent is always making a choice with it. Honored Blade being tied to winning conflicts seems right to me as well, I just felt like it should have been a Once Per Conflict ability to work with the various ready and movement tech options. But maybe that was too strong.

We do have some tech that benefit being high honor among the Lion (Obstinate Recruit, Venerable Historian and Steadfast Samurai) and I feel like we will see more among at least some of the clans. Maybe some neutral characters too. I think what we need are some events to trigger off of it. Just as we will see Scorpion cards that trigger off of 6- honor, I want to see some cards that trigger off of 19+ honor. They probably would not be as powerful since that is a bit of a win more situation. The new Earth role only attachment seems sort of meh to me.

The issue is the game set out as now is geared around the slow drag on your honor rather than a steady climb with all the incidentals dishonor effects (failed to defend a conflict, card costs etc) and not enough consistent honor effects to offset with out specifically building a deck around it. You can argue that the bid mechanic serves that purpose but game results are showing that the decks that do well are those that have card advantage (who'd have thought having access to more of your cards makes winning easier) and if you try and leverage the honor bids for victory you hit the stall point and don't have enough ways to get over the hump to victory while opponents are leveraging their card advantage to victory (again who'd have thought being able to play cards would make your deck stronger).

Fully agreed! My opinion was that I like the bid mechanic and feel it is interactive, but I agree we need more steady honor gain capabilities to keep up with the steady honor loss capabilities.

1 hour ago, L5RBr said:

Yes this could happen but this is why Conquest was designed to be the main path to victory in n5r.

And what do we have now? A system that have synergy and interactivity and this is proved with now what? 10 koteis all won by the same clans?

If the game gets stucked on honor racing, then the clans go to Conquest, I think ALL clans need and have ways to do it, in old5R It was Very diferent since honor/dishonor were very focused and non interactive decks with 0 probability of winning by Conquest.

The design mechanics have little to do with Scorpion being so dominant. They just happen to have the largest pool of strong cards.

Everyone already has a way to drain or gain honor.... Its the Air ring. From what I am seeing in the previews FFG is building upon what is existing by making cards that increase the importance of winning and controlling air. I think that is a better solution to going full on Oprah with the access to honor/dishonor cards. Because then you are going to have a clan that falls behind on military and now they want what Lion has....and so on until the game is completely homogenized and reduced to a true best deck that plays only the best cards.

After hearing from the designers that the purposely throttled honor back at the onset, and their reasons why. I agree with the decision, and I am eager to see what develops within the next couple expansions. Not only in terms of cards, but, the strategies that evolve around them and how people approach honor bids.

I would be okay with steady Honor gain capacity ONLY if it came paired with a requirement on your Honor dial or with Honoring Characters in play. We are presently in the right direction for Honor pressure, with Honored Blades and Kakita Blades getting some Honor, Kakita Asami and Blackmail Artist stealing some Honor, and Way of the Chrysanthemum letting you get a bunch of Honor due to an opponent's challenging play.

If we had a neutral Event like Good Omen, which Honored a character if you have a lower bid on your Honor dial, I think we would be where we should be for Honor gaining. Yes, it is possible to win through Honor, but it is difficult.

I feel that Honor and Dishonor have switched roles in the LCG compared to the CCG. In the CCG, Honor was a viable strategy for victory which put pressure on your opponent, while Dishonor was only viable in a sudden "bomb" strategy which required combos and opponents to not have optimal choices to stop it. In the LCG, Dishonor is how you pressure your opponent while Honor requires a Way of the Chrysanthemum or shenanigans using Rebuild and Wandering Yurts to pull off.

31 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

I would be okay with steady Honor gain capacity ONLY if it came paired with a requirement on your Honor dial or with Honoring Characters in play. We are presently in the right direction for Honor pressure, with Honored Blades and Kakita Blades getting some Honor, Kakita Asami and Blackmail Artist stealing some Honor, and Way of the Chrysanthemum letting you get a bunch of Honor due to an opponent's challenging play.

If we had a neutral Event like Good Omen, which Honored a character if you have a lower bid on your Honor dial, I think we would be where we should be for Honor gaining. Yes, it is possible to win through Honor, but it is difficult.

I feel that Honor and Dishonor have switched roles in the LCG compared to the CCG. In the CCG, Honor was a viable strategy for victory which put pressure on your opponent, while Dishonor was only viable in a sudden "bomb" strategy which required combos and opponents to not have optimal choices to stop it. In the LCG, Dishonor is how you pressure your opponent while Honor requires a Way of the Chrysanthemum or shenanigans using Rebuild and Wandering Yurts to pull off.

Totally agree, the Honor victory now is really hard and depends on some combos. I dont like that, and fully agree with the devs that dont want to see steady honor gain capacity and uninteractive gameplay.

I dont even matter seeing decks winning by honor anyway...

I just think the dishonor is undeniable a big deal, and the mechanic is great, it is a great part of the game, the only think that really bothers me is if the game bring some above the curve cards that have the drawback of loosing honor like assassination, banzai or the new spreading the darkness, cards that will see a lot of play, it is okay that just some clans could take a good advantage of it? Treathening opponents just with the rings and unopposed conflicts is something really hard and uncomparable to having dynasty/conflict native support for it.

I think setting honor win to 20 is a legitimate idea. There is no reason it takes this more honor gain to win then honor loss to lose. The interactivity is frankly a bull argument, dishonoring your enemy is not in any way more interactive then honoring yourself. Its you doing the same action on yourself, instead of doing it on someone else. Considering its easier to dishonor and the fact it requires more of it on top of it is a ridiculous idea.

Consider this, the only clan doing well against Crab and Scorpion often enough is Crane, not because they honor win. Simply because destroying their honor is harder. Lion, unicorn and even Pheonix needs better way to either honor or just be like crane and not be totally helpless against dishonored mechanics. As a pheonix player, i am rather peeved at the fact we have an awesome lore Clan champion, one that you decided to make the first clan book about, one that we simply dont get to play because dishonor destroys her more then anybody else in the game and dishonoring clans are all the strongest by design, because you think dishonor victory are more interactive for some reason. I dont know how interactive it can be to flip your stronghold every turn to take one honor from someone so that they can never reverse pressure, but im guessing NOT A LOT.

Lowering the honor win condition to 20 is not a good idea. Leads to a lot of potential turn 1 wins. WotC can mean lion win turn 1 with a 5 and 1 bid. Other clans can also just use guardian kami or kami unleashed to get that two or three extra honor to win. It would mean no one could ever bid 5, people would not be able to play their deck. I would be garbage.

I used to think the better solution would be to increase the win to condition for honour to 30 and the starting honor of each clan by 5. I am less sure now with duty being a thing.

At the moment honour is possible. Its just not easy and not entirely viable against dishonour, but it shouldn't be. Honour shouldn't be any easier than conquest or dishonor. It shouldn't just beat dishonor. In the dishonor honor match up both players should end up having to go for conquest. The problem is that is too easy for scorpion to switch and in crabs case, go for conflict while applying enough dishonor pressure ser to prevent honor. There just needs to be more conflict honor hybrid cards. Like "met condition X is met, ready a character and honor them" . "+2 glory (may pol or mil instead?) on a character you control in this conflict, If you win gain honor equal to your current honor dial value".

Alternatively if you are adiment on rewriting the rules just have it that successfully defending gives you 1 honor.

or maybe grant one honor to the Victor of a conflict.

27 minutes ago, Nitenman said:

or maybe grant one honor to the Victor of a conflict.

Swing for Air ring, you can get that.

I do think gaining an honor for winning on defense would be helpful, even if it's a neutral card effect instead of a revised rules effect. Right now winning the conflict is almost strictly in the attacker's benefit, unless you play Crab. Defender basically just denies the attacker the ring to trigger (doesn't get to trigger themselves) and stops a province break (if the attacker was even attempting to break). In phoenix, we definitely had some early signs of a strong defense theme, but since we didn't get anything out of it (Even Display of Power only fires on Unopposed losses) there little point to defense.