5 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

He’s stacking it with a focus while getting double reposition actions in many turns with that charge upgrade.

That’s worse for generics than Fel ever was.

Double reposition... Twice in a game.

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Double reposition... Twice in a game.

Shields. Triple soft focus. It’d be a nightmare.

11 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Shields. Triple soft focus. It’d be a nightmare.

Luke has infinite soft focus for defense, and he has regen.

An evade (as I suggested) always stresses Vader, limiting his dial. It also requires him to barrel roll, which sometimes just isn't an option.

Not to mention that Evade was seriously nerfed, Vader at best can still only evade 3 hit results. Changing a single blank to an evade symbol for a stress isn't going to break him.

Plus, don't forget, he'd probably be even more expensive. Plus if Vader chains actions all the time, he won't have 3 force tokens most of the game. Using force talents also depletes his reserves. On average, I think the same +1 action is all he gets.

It really wouldn't be a nightmare.

9 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

3 [2] Attack

3 Agility

3 Hull

2 Shields

Focus --> Barrel roll

Lock [ --> E vade - I agree its safe as a red action ]

Barrel Roll [ --> Lock ]

Boost [I think this is OK, fluff wise its engines eventually became the interceptors, it also had a hyperdrive, balance wise, who knows. Definitely has to be red]

Ship ability:
Advanced Targeting Computer

While you perform a primary attack against a defender you have locked, change 1 (damage) result to a (critical) result. [Leave it as it is]

System Slot [tick]

2 Mod slots [tick]

Speed 1: Blue banks , white straight

Speed 2: White turns, blue banks, blue straight,

Speed 3: White turns, white banks, blue straight , Red trolls

Speed 4: White straight, Red K-turn

Speed 5: White straight

Design insights:

I added back the Evade, but tied to the barrel roll. I did this for several reasons.

A, The ship should roll better than an X-Wing. That's the thing it does [Agreed]

B, The ship is still bulkier and heavier than a TIE, so the evade shouldn't come naturally. [Agreed]

C, The TIE Aggressor has Barrel-roll into an Evade, so it helps building some identity with the sister ship. [Sure]

I also added a red boost. It's red because the ship is not as fast as an Interceptor or a Defender, but it shouldn't be outpaced by an X-Wing either. Vader can add Engine Upgrade to make it white, and if balance is an issue EU can always cost more on Vader. So Vader can do what Vader does, but it can be expensive. [Agreed - although as you said Engine Upgrade coupled with Vader's ability to take multiple actions could be troublesome - I think keeping the 2 atk balances this a bit]

I didn't change the dial, because with the added mobility from actions, it feels right. [Agreed]

I moved around the Attack dice granted by the Targeting computer to the ship. The special ability of the ship is no longer a drawback, but a benefit. You can attack without locks, but locks make it so much better. [I agree with the ethos, but I'd personally like the ATC to be at the forefront, rather than simply a bonus, having an additional option to lock would be my preferred option. I also think 2 atk is more balanced if it is to gain a boost action]

I don't think this would be broken, and it still has a solid identity amongst the other imperial ships, while being more similar to the related designs.

I'm kind of half way between you and Fickle with this ship. I like a few things you're talking about, but I also think this ship (in the movie) is way better with Vader behind the controls than it would be flown by anyone else. I think this is what needs to be displayed most in game, Vader is a beast compared to the other pilots, but I do agree that the ship can't be so bad that you never take anyone else but Vader.

I am generally quite happy with the 2.0 version. The dial is much improved and I quite like the new version of ATC with 2 attack dice. Vader will be great as is, which I'm happy about.

My opinion of what should change is gaining target locks. ATC is the ship's defining feature (in-game) and should be more ubiquitous in how its flown. I do agree with Fickle in that its a TIE/ln on steroids, and won't be as strong as a purpose built Interceptor or Defender. I do expect a significant point cost reduction from 1.0 to compensate for this fact though, since Vader will cop both the ace tax and the force user tax. These are also the reasons I feel 2 attack dice is fair.

3 minutes ago, BVRCH said:

I'm kind of half way between you and Fickle with this ship. I like a few things you're talking about, but I also think this ship (in the movie) is way better with Vader behind the controls than it would be flown by anyone else. I think this is what needs to be displayed most in game, Vader is a beast compared to the other pilots, but I do agree that the ship can't be so bad that you never take anyone else but Vader.

I am generally quite happy with the 2.0 version. The dial is much improved and I quite like the new version of ATC with 2 attack dice. Vader will be great as is, which I'm happy about.

My opinion of what should change is gaining target locks. ATC is the ship's defining feature (in-game) and should be more ubiquitous in how its flown. I do agree with Fickle in that its a TIE/ln on steroids, and won't be as strong as a purpose built Interceptor or Defender. I do expect a significant point cost reduction from 1.0 to compensate for this fact though, since Vader will cop both the ace tax and the force user tax. These are also the reasons I feel 2 attack dice is fair.

To be fair, I can concede the 3 dice attack. The attack power realistically should be between a TIE and an Interceptor.

I just have this fear that the devs will treat the ship as if it has a 3 dice attack when pricing it. I could be wrong, but the ship already looks like they were being too careful with it. They already made this mistake with several Imperial ships in 1.0.

12 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

I just have this fear that the devs will treat the ship as if it has a 3 dice attack when pricing it. I could be wrong, but the ship already looks like they were being too careful with it. They already made this mistake with several Imperial ships in 1.0.

One of the best things about 2.0 is that this won't actually be the end of the world. If it turns out that the devs have been overly cautious with the Advanced (or any ship), they can just bump the cost down a touch in the next points update. The days of waiting 2 years for an ace pack are well and truly behind us.

6 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

One of the best things about 2.0 is that this won't actually be the end of the world. If it turns out that the devs have been overly cautious with the Advanced (or any ship), they can just bump the cost down a touch in the next points update. The days of waiting 2 years for an ace pack are well and truly behind us.

Yes, it sounds very nice.

I'll have to see it to believe it. We will see how eager they are to change costs once the game is out, and how much of that is increasing costs for broken cards, and how much of it is making bad cards cheaper.

And also their willingness to apply these changes to every faction within the same timeframe... or we will see 4 years of Biggs again

Maybe we will see some Dark Force powers that will make ppl want to play him.

ANything extra will come at a premium and might push Vader as a pilot into the realms of casual play.

44 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

To be fair, I can concede the 3 dice attack. The attack power realistically should be between a TIE and an Interceptor.

I just have this fear that the devs will treat the ship as if it has a 3 dice attack when pricing it. I could be wrong, but the ship already looks like they were being too careful with it. They already made this mistake with several Imperial ships in 1.0.

I totally agree. I think the 'ATC add a die' is that middle ground.

I tend to agree there. The beauty of 2.0 is that if they do indeed over cost it, its not a permanent drawback anymore. They can keep tweaking cost and upgrade slots to get that balance in check. They know it was over costed in 1.0 so I do expect a point reduction of some sort, however small it may be initially.

Edit: I see I've been ninja'd. I'll add that I don't believe we'll ever see the stretches between fixes of 1.0 ever again, the new system is easier and reversible. They would be stupid not to capitalise on that.

44 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

I'll  have to  see it to believe  i  t.

If you only believe it when you see it you’ll never make it through the night. ?

The devs really have been clear that they’ll adjust points if needed. IIRC they have said they’ll adjust points 3 to 4 times a year. I’d expect the first adjustment in January 2019 on that basis. Although you’re right to be concerned about the quality and consistency of these changes. They do seem sincere in wanting to make the game balanced and they particularly seem concerned that “iconic” ships and pilots are viable.

I’m hoping, in time, the 2.0 generic is going to be cheaper than the 1.0 equivalent. Getting a Target Lock with Initiative 2 to get that 3 attack could be troublesome. I’ve always took Accuracy Corrector on the 1.0 low PS generics for that reason.

8 hours ago, dsul413 said:

ATC adds the die and changes a result. That sounds like boosted power output, no?

This. Plus it gives interest to the TL action, which is gameplay-wise really interesting.

8 hours ago, dsul413 said:

ATC adds the die and changes a result. That sounds like boosted power output, no?

This. Plus it gives interest to the TL action, which is gameplay-wise really interesting.

7 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

I mean, I saw it single handedly kill a Pelta in official canon..

Unless we want the B-wing Death Ray, lets assume a particularly horrific critical there. The TIE/x1 already hands out criticals reliably.

I don't mind Advanced Targeting Computer. It makes sense - especially with Fire Control System, it gives the ship firepower but makes it more focused to use.

I have two concerns - the same concerns that I have with the TIE/x1 in 1.0, to be honest:

• Needing to acquire a target lock to have meaningful firepower means your first action on entering engagement range will almost always be to lock.
  • This means the TIE/x1 has fundamental issues with being on the wrong end of the Pilot Skill (now Initiative) stick because the target lock rules haven't changed dramatically so far as we know, so a low initiative Tempest Squadron Pilot (or whatever) will have trouble locking on to Han, who's going to move into range after the TIE/x1's perform action step.
    • This is why TIE/x1 generics today tend to prefer Accuracy Corrector. Which so far as we know no longer exists.
  • It will also be very susceptible to anything which can destroy target locks. Now, so far, so good - Jam tokens no longer do this, and neither does Expert Handling. We've yet to see the Black One title, though, and that's currently the most common culprit of this effect.
  • Having to lock also means no focus token. Agility 3 is nice but no green tokens means it's not all that reliable. Since Push The Limit isn't a thing, and Target Lock doesn't link into anything, this is an issue for pretty much anyone who doesn't have another source of dice modifiers.
• In short, unless there's a big, big disparity in points costs, I suspect the TIE/x1 will be even more than it is today 'Darth Vader's TIE fighter' .

Two attack dice going to three with a lock is one of the most thematic and 'correct' mechanics in the game.

I can't really believe there's actually criticism of it. Every single shot makes in ANH is with his targeting computer, and his computer is obviously way more advanced than that of an X-Wings. The only time he doesn't appear to use the computer is when he happens to hit R2.

The x1 has two guns. Sure, they might be a bit more powerful than that of a TIE Fighters, but there's no arguing around the fact that an Interceptor has at least double the firepower. The attack dice range used simply isn't granular enough to reflect such degrees. Even with that in mind, I can't see the logic in saying a ship that has categorically half the firepower of another should have the same base attack value. Two dice makes sense as a base. Yes they're more powerful than a TIE Fighter's, but do we know that they're more powerful than an A-Wing's? Or the HWK's gun turret?

Vader's Advanced is as lethal as we see it in ANH because of two things. It's being flown by Darth ******* Vader, and he's always able to get his shots to land on weakpoints in the rear of his enemies ships thanks to both innate skill and a decent target computer.

The built in ability represents that perfectly, IMO.

I do agree that barrel roll into red evade would have been a nice touch. Vader can't just use his extreme action economy to token up (he has to take a stress to do it, and it only works if barrel rolling is the right move) but it at least gives him a it of a defensive boost.

I don't think more defence is a problem on Vader. Yes, tokening up led to some bad things in 1e but Vader is going to be approaching half your list much of the time. When he only has 5HP, I don't see a problem giving him a bit of help staying alive. Focus fire is still going to wreck him, even if he saves all those Force points for defence mods.

I also don't think it works for any other pair. You could have target lock into evade to give it that 1e TAP feel, for example, and on the face of it it's probably not too bad. But I think it would make Juke basically an auto-include on Vader for some insane action economy that would probably be good even in 1e.

16 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

It has the same cannons as the Interceptor

Yeah, same cannons, but the /In have 6 of them instead of 2 (4 on wings, 2 on chin). That seem quite different for me. At the end of the day, the emperor choose to mass produce the /In because it was more efficient for it cost, and he is wise. The advance is more of a "signature" ship for some high-ranked staff and officer who actuarly needed hyperdrive.

2/3/3/2 is good for me to protect the galaxy from those rebels and scums, andif Lord Vader is in the ship, they are doomed.