16 hours ago, phillos said:

I mean how do you get behind the guy when he continues to lead the Crab after they sacrifice one son and nail him to a banner and then give the other son's name to an oni. Feels like he should have known better.

Kudos to you, sir. This has got to be one of the BEST understatements I've ever seen.

"Nails one son to an evil banner...gives the other son's name to a demonic monstrosity...seriously, he should have known better."

36 minutes ago, DGLaderoute said:

Kudos to you, sir. This has got to be one of the BEST understatements I've ever seen.

"Nails one son to an evil banner...gives the other son's name to a demonic monstrosity...seriously, he should have known better."

In Kisada's defense it seemed like a good idea at the time, and the emperor did give him a really nice sword for all his troubles.

1 hour ago, Schmoozies said:

In Kisada's defense it seemed like a good idea at the time, and the emperor did give him a really nice sword for all his troubles.

Joking aside, you figure Kisada of all people would have known better than to try and use the Shadowlands the way he did, thinking he'd topple the Emperor and then unite the Clans against his (now no longer necessary) esrtwhile allies. It's the kind of arrogant thinking that characterize the Phoenix at their worst, and unlike them, Kisada couldn't claim he lived on the opposite end of the Empire and thus had little practical idea what he was dabbling with.

1 hour ago, DGLaderoute said:

Kudos to you, sir. This has got to be one of the BEST understatements I've ever seen.

"Nails one son to an evil banner...gives the other son's name to a demonic monstrosity...seriously, he should have known better."

To be fair it's debatable how much Yori was keeping Kisada informed of all the stuff they were getting up to on the front lines.

I really like the write up of the interaction where Yori ask permission to do the Banner of Fu Leng. It basically goes...

Yori: So... we kind of need a big sacrifice to help us achieve victory.

Kisada: Alright. I will give up my life for the sake of the Clan.

Yori: Yeah... We sort of need you alive for a while yet. But it's great that you okayed the plan. Kthx Bye.

And then he earth shugenja tunnels away before Kisada can tell him no.

1 minute ago, Mangod said:

Joking aside, you figure Kisada, of all people, would have known better than to try and use the Shadowlands the way he did, thinking he'd topple the Emperor and then unite the Clans against his (now no longer necessary) esrtwhile allies. It's the kind of arrogant thinking that characterize the Phoenix at their worst, and unlike them, Kisada couldn't claim he lived on the opposite end of the Empire and thus had little practical idea what he was dabbling with.

Well Kisada had a weird kind of respect for the strength of the Shadowlands as the only enemy worthy of the Crab. And Yori kind of sugar coated how easy it would be to pull off.

Add in that both the Phoenix and Crab had a thousand years to forget the past and "know better than their ancestors", despite ancestral veneration.

2 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

Kudos to you, sir. This has got to be one of the BEST understatements I've ever seen.

"Nails one son to an evil banner...gives the other son's name to a demonic monstrosity...seriously, he should have known better."

You think you have a bad relationship with your father. Let me tell you about this Kisada guy.

Though seriously I know Kisada goes on a redemptive arc, but it's really impossible for me to forget that stuff in the old lore. Yori I feel like is a more understandable corruption. He studied the Shadowlands for so long that he became seduced by it. I like his arc. I never liked Kisada's arc. It only makes sense if Kisada is some sort of simpleton, which is definitely not the Kisada we've come to know over the years so it's jarring reading that old stuff.

8 minutes ago, phillos said:

You think you have a bad relationship with your father. Let me tell you about this Kisada guy.

Though seriously I know Kisada goes on a redemptive arc, but it's really impossible for me to forget that stuff in the old lore. Yori I feel like is a more understandable corruption. He studied the Shadowlands for so long that he became seduced by it. I like his arc. I never liked Kisada's arc. It only makes sense if Kisada is some sort of simpleton, which is definitely not the Kisada we've come to know over the years so it's jarring reading that old stuff.

Part of the issue with Kisada is that much of his backstory was filled in after the fact. On release Crab were a low honor defensive military force, versus Lion as the high honor aggressive military army. The anti Shadowlands sentiment was built up over time as the game released and by the time we got to the Second Day of Thunder and they were starting to release the RPG stuff is when the Crab being totally anti-Shadowlands at all times really came out. His wasn't even really a redemption arc it was more a hubris arc. Yakamo had the redemption arc seeing how far he could fall before realizing that the pragmatic ends justify the means mentality wasn't working rejecting the easy path to reclaim his, and his clans, honor.

I'd argue they both go down a redemptive arc with Kisada not committing seppuku for his actions and instead helping Yakamo repair the clan, but fair enough. I agree mostly what I'm complaining about is the original portrayal of the dude doesn't line up with how he was eventually characterized.

How about Taka goes Kolat and has Kisada back Yoritomo. Then double crosses the Crab by swapping the real jade with fake stuff that gets Kisada killed. Yakamo tries to avenge his father's death but isn't up to the task. Yori propositions Yakamo with a way to bring his father back. Kisada comes back and is able to resist the taint for awhile, at least long enough to figure out it wasnt Yoritomo that betrayed them. Kisada commits seppuku to avoid turning fully but isn't aware of how big a bargain was made to bring him back so when he dies there is further corruption within the clan......Yakamo, Sukune, maybe more.

This leaves O-ushi now tasked with taking care of the fallout

52 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

How about Taka goes Kolat and has Kisada back Yoritomo. Then double crosses the Crab by swapping the real jade with fake stuff that gets Kisada killed. Yakamo tries to avenge his father's death but isn't up to the task. Yori propositions Yakamo with a way to bring his father back. Kisada comes back and is able to resist the taint for awhile, at least long enough to figure out it wasnt Yoritomo that betrayed them. Kisada commits seppuku to avoid turning fully but isn't aware of how big a bargain was made to bring him back so when he dies there is further corruption within the clan......Yakamo, Sukune, maybe more.

This leaves O-ushi now tasked with taking care of the fallout

I like the Kolat angle but unless their is a huge shift in their modus operandi they should be as opposed (if not more so than most) to the Shadowlands as everyone else. They are all about the rise of man and freeing them from the yoke of control that the founding Kami put the empire under.

A far more likely plot for them to be behind is the spread of the perfect land sect, along with possibly having done something to interfere with the Shugenja's ability to interact with the elemental kami (and perhaps even aggravate them to turn the people against them). If they could further manipulate Shoju (or more likely Kachicko) and the rest of the Scorpion into a realization that the Emperor has "lost" the favor of the Heavens and that maybe it is time for a new dynasty to begin. It could easily lead to a period of protracted civil war as the various clans are jockeying for position to take an empty throne following the death of the Emperor.

If you don't want to go full coup you could go the route of the two heirs story line with the clans divided on which of the sons of the Emperor is more worthy to rule. You tell the story of the elder heir traumatized by the sudden death of his father having to come to terms with the true responsibility of what it means to be Emperor and not have the fates of his subjects rest on his shoulders. To counter that you have his younger more "capable" brother that is maneuvering from the shadows to undermine him and step into his place (whether that is influenced by a certain bloody cult or my preferred Kolat instigation to further destabilize the perception of the Imperial order could go either way). I know AEG tried that story but I think if you strip out the Spider association you could make it a far more interesting story than the AEG one was.

Oh yeah I get that. I wouldn't expect Yori and Taka to be working together. Taka would just be trying to get a foothold for the Kolat and Kisada's death would be an unexpected consequence. As would Yakamo getting aid from Yori.

Taka would likely try to influence the remaining children and then come to find out O-ushi doesn't mess around. Yakamo's dealings out a wrench in Taka's plans so he has to slow up while O-ushi deals with things. Maybe Taka goes to "investigate the Kolat" while he's really building up his network for the next strike.

Maybe Kolat just ends up being perfect land sect. Jade doesn't arrive because it was hijacked by PLS Crab posses because Mantis "allowed it to happen" and Kisada does because of their failure. When really Take was trying to make a power play for the PLS?

11 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

I like the Kolat angle but unless their is a huge shift in their modus operandi they should be as opposed (if not more so than most) to the Shadowlands as everyone else. They are all about the rise of man and freeing them from the yolk of control that the founding Kami put the empire under.

A far more likely plot for them to be behind is the spread of the perfect land sect, along with possibly having done something to interfere with the Shugenja's ability to interact with the elemental kami (and perhaps even aggravate them to turn the people against them). If they could further manipulate Shoju (or more likely Kachicko) and the rest of the Scorpion into a realization that the Emperor has "lost" the favor of the Heavens and that maybe it is time for a new dynasty to begin. It could easily lead to a period of protracted civil war as the various clans are jockeying for position to take an empty throne following the death of the Emperor.

If you don't want to go full coup you could go the route of the two heirs story line with the clans divided on which of the sons of the Emperor is more worthy to rule. You tell the story of the elder heir traumatized by the sudden death of his father having to come to terms with the true responsibility of what it means to be Emperor and not have the fates of his subjects rest on his shoulders. To counter that you have his younger more "capable" brother that is maneuvering from the shadows to undermine him and step into his place (whether that is influenced by a certain bloody cult or my preferred Kolat instigation to further destabilize the perception of the Imperial order could go either way). I know AEG tried that story but I think if you strip out the Spider association you could make it a far more interesting story than the AEG one was.

Hehehe... "[...]yolk of control that the founding Kami put the empire under." Now I'm imagining Hantei, Doji and the rest walking around and pouring eggs on peoples heads.

I'm wondering if the Emperor'll die when they Unleash the Djinn. That'd certainly set the stage for a succession crisis, especially if Sotorii and/or Daisetsu blame the Clans that voted in favor of Meishodo being allowed (Crab, Crane, Dragon, Scorpion, Unicorn) for Hantei XXXVIII dying. Even if it's spoken in the heat of the moment, it'd essentially amount to accusing the Clans of conspiring to assassinate the Emperor.

9 minutes ago, Mangod said:

I'm wondering if the Emperor'll die when they Unleash the Djinn. That'd certainly set the stage for a succession crisis, especially if Sotorii and/or Daisetsu blame the Clans that voted in favor of Meishodo being allowed (Crab, Crane, Dragon, Scorpion, Unicorn) for Hantei XXXVIII dying. Even if it's spoken in the heat of the moment, it'd essentially amount to accusing the Clans of conspiring to assassinate the Emperor.

Well...I guess that would really make for the Toturi/Kaede marriage a real thing for the inevitable Lion/Phoenix alliance to support the...whoever is going to need support against the other clans being blamed for the Emperor's death.

3 minutes ago, Mangod said:

Hehehe... "[...]yolk of control that the founding Kamu put the empire under." Now I'm imagining Hantei, Doji and the rest walking around and pouring eggs on peoples heads.

I'm wondering if the Emperor'll die when they Unleash the Djinn. That'd certainly set the stage for a succession crisis, especially if Sotorii and/or Daisetsu blame the Clans that voted in favor of Meishodo being allowed (Crab, Crane, Dragon, Scorpion, Unicorn) for Hantei XXXVIII dying. Even if it's spoken in the heat of the moment, it'd essentially amount to accusing the Clans of conspiring to assassinate the Emperor.

Would definitely present some interesting story possibilities, although I was hoping for a bit more of a slow burn on the whole Meishido story.

5 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Oh yeah I get that. I wouldn't expect Yori and Taka to be working together. Taka would just be trying to get a foothold for the Kolat and Kisada's death would be an unexpected consequence. As would Yakamo getting aid from Yori.

Taka would likely try to influence the remaining children and then come to find out O-ushi doesn't mess around. Yakamo's dealings out a wrench in Taka's plans so he has to slow up while O-ushi deals with things. Maybe Taka goes to "investigate the Kolat" while he's really building up his network for the next strike.

In my mind Sukune would be the better child for Taka to try and influence, overlooked by the rest of his family for his physical failings he's ripe for Kolat grooming. Shown a path where his strengths can be put to better use he starts slowly being inducted into the Kolat and using the limited influence he does have over his father and siblings to steer them towards the Kolat agenda (the Emperor is weak and is failing to support us, the clans squabble while we suffer and only our clans strong arm can truly guide them on the true path). Couple that with a resurgent threat from the shadowlands and say proof that corruption has run rampant through the Kuni and reached the heights of say the Daimyo and you get a purge that leaves the clan reeling and ready for a shift in priorities.