4 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

Hida Yakamo (Oni) was a core set card.

I wasn’t around for this, but my understanding is that this was a misprint (i.e. unintended) that was later written into the canon. I’m not sure on that timeline, though.

8 hours ago, Darksyde said:

Hmm, not sure I like crab getting the first maho for this edition. I realize it may fit with old story lines but it didn't make sense to me then and doesn't really now.?

The actual original Crab shown at day one in the game is that they were the low honor defensive military clan, as opposed to the honorable aggresive military clan which was the Lion; they were shady guys from day one. A few years down the road, The Way of the Crab was published for the RPG and they were retconned into always having been the anti-Shadowlands clan (with just this one little slip). The so important Wall was retconned into being the core of the clan, but had never even been mentioned until that point (no need for it, the Shadowlands was not meant to be a place in this world, but some kind of netherrworld, and only became a physical place bordering the Crab because of some copyright/trademark hijinks). However. it's reasonable that if you got later in the game, you learned the "history" the other way around, and I agree the retconned story is hard to reconcile ( I think the writers made a reasonabley good job with it, given the circunstances), but realize which was the original presentation, and which was the retcon.

Fortunately, FFG has the luxury of going into the story (of which I think they will be following the major signpost, if not the particulars) with full knowledge of how it will develop, which gives them time to set up twists in a more nuanced way. I like, for instance, how they are setting up Tadaka on a dark path... and path which crosses with Yori very soon and probably will turn darker. We didn't have that in the original story (that I remember, maybe at some time there was a throwaway line in some RPG book, or a reminiscence in a story; but in any case it would have been a retcon looong after the fact).

1 hour ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

I wasn’t around for this, but my understanding is that this was a misprint (i.e. unintended) that was later written into the canon. I’m not sure on that timeline, though.

No it was intentional for the Oni to have been gifted wth Yakamo's name, so much so that the art for the Oni was made to mimic the structure of the Yakamo hero art. Note how the oni's horns are reminiscent of Yakamo's helmet. The misprint is that the Oni was apparently supposed to be called Oni no Yakamo to match the naming pattern for other oni's that was established in later sets, which was why they had to add the Errata that the two were different cards ofr Uniqueness purposes.

13 hours ago, Mon no Oni said:

The actual original Crab shown at day one in the game is that they were the low honor defensive military clan, as opposed to the honorable aggresive military clan which was the Lion; they were shady guys from day one. A few years down the road, The Way of the Crab was published for the RPG and they were retconned into always having been the anti-Shadowlands clan (with just this one little slip). The so important Wall was retconned into being the core of the clan, but had never even been mentioned until that point (no need for it, the Shadowlands was not meant to be a place in this world, but some kind of netherrworld, and only became a physical place bordering the Crab because of some copyright/trademark hijinks). However. it's reasonable that if you got later in the game, you learned the "history" the other way around, and I agree the retconned story is hard to reconcile ( I think the writers made a reasonabley good job with it, given the circunstances), but realize which was the original presentation, and which was the retcon.

Fortunately, FFG has the luxury of going into the story (of which I think they will be following the major signpost, if not the particulars) with full knowledge of how it will develop, which gives them time to set up twists in a more nuanced way. I like, for instance, how they are setting up Tadaka on a dark path... and path which crosses with Yori very soon and probably will turn darker. We didn't have that in the original story (that I remember, maybe at some time there was a throwaway line in some RPG book, or a reminiscence in a story; but in any case it would have been a retcon looong after the fact).

Yeah my first introduction was Way of The Crab since I was an RPGer first and came into the card game that way. It wasn't long after the game was released. I was in high school so it was late 90s. I read that book then looked at the cards and thought well it sucks that this doesn't really make sense. It doesn't really matter what came first. The end result was awkward looking back, and it would be awkward now given everything we already know about the Crab from the FFG lore. In any event that was the past, they have a chance to write it so it all flows better this time around.

Ultimately I think all any fan of a particular clan wants is for their characters to feel like the heroes in their own stories. Even if my favorite clan looks like the villain to everyone else I should be able to sympathize with their actions, and somehow feel like they are justified. So far the FFG writing team has done a great job in this respect I think.

5 minutes ago, phillos said:

Yeah my first introduction was Way of The Crab since I was an RPGer first and came into the card game that way. It wasn't long after the game was released. I was in high school so it was late 90s. I read that book then looked at the cards and thought well it sucks that this doesn't really make sense. It doesn't really matter what came first. The end result was awkward looking back, and it would be awkward now given everything we already know about the Crab from the FFG lore. In any event that was the past, they have a chance to write it so it all flows better this time around.

I mean from the get go with Imperial edition box text they were setting the stage:

Clan Crab

For Generations the Crab have held back the horrors of the Shadowlands, but times have changed. Now they have embraced that which they have fought against for so long, turning their mastery of warfare against the Empire they swore to protect.

“You are always blind to your truest enemy, for he is behind your eyes.”

-The Tao of Shinsei

They were running with the whole stare too long into the void idea. It was a necessary story beat as you need an antagonist and conflict for any story to work and Crab were given the role of the primary antagonist for the launch of the game. Players ran with it and you had a solid divide between honorable and dishonorable players for quite a while.

Story-wise I never felt it was successful if you want the Crab clan to be a sympathetic player faction. Ultimately that's where I always was with it. Maybe if all you want the Crab to be is your fallen antagonist faction. I liked Crab in spite of that era in their history not because of it. Again, it's not a bad concept. I just was never a fan of the execution. I'm not opposed to corrupted segments of the Crab. That's gotta be happening sitting so close to the Shadowlands for so long. Just don't tell me that exact story again. I'm not sure how I was suppose to like any of those guys at the time or feel sympathetic to them. I wasn't digging it then and it would only be more disappointing now. Tell me a story where Yori and corrupted forces inside the clan fights a civil war against the loyalist. Tell me a story where the Crab and Mantis team up and rebel against the empire. Tell me a story where the wall gets overrun because they are busy fighting the other clans. Tell me any story other than the Crab as a clan voluntarily let the Shadowland forces cross the wall and fight side by side with them against the empire.

@phillos - Honestly, I am expecting this to be laying the groundwork for Kuni Yori's corruption, and not to expect to see the Crab Clan actually take any assistance from the Shadowlands knowingly until it is basically a "life or death" choice for Kisada. If I am correct, this will occur after the Scorpion Clan Coup, in which Kisada will side with Shoju due to the Hantei being seemingly dead (are you going to NOT believe the Master of Secrets when he says he's killed the Hantei?). After Shoju is killed by Toturi, and Hantei XXXIX is revealed to be alive, you wind up with the situation of the Crab Clan stuck in a state of potential war with the rest of the Empire, especially after the Imperial Legions devastate the Scorpion Clan lands to the north.

Oh yeah, and his son and heir, Yakamo, had his hand chopped off during the Coup by a revenge-driven Hitomi and is dying.

So, what is your choice, Kisada? Let the Crab Clan die? Or let Kuni Yori save your son's life, and save the Empire from a weak, impetuous Emperor who intends to destroy you, your Clan, and your family?

yeah still don't like it, but that's me. Like it less now. It feels incorrect for the Kisada we know now to make that choice. Sure try and save the clan, sure go punch the emperor in the face. Do it by completely negating your clan's whole purpose? Maybe before Way Of The Crab that made sense.

Before anyone gets TOO wrapped around the axle about the Crab or anyone doing this or not doing that or whatever, keep in mind that this is a NEW STORY. For example, this:

Quote

If I am correct, this will occur after the Scorpion Clan Coup, in which Kisada will side with Shoju due to the Hantei being seemingly dead (are you going to NOT believe the Master of Secrets when he says he's killed the Hantei?). After Shoju is killed by Toturi, and Hantei XXXIX is revealed to be alive, you wind up with the situation of the Crab Clan stuck in a state of potential war with the rest of the Empire, especially after the Imperial Legions devastate the Scorpion Clan lands to the north.

...is based on stuff that comes from the old canon. There is an EXCELLENT chance that things won't play out this way at all. I'm not in a position to say one way or the other; the only reason I'm saying anything at all is to avoid having some folks read this and think that is what is "going to occur" in the story. It might be...but it might also be entirely different!

5 minutes ago, DGLaderoute said:

Before anyone gets TOO wrapped around the axle about the Crab or anyone doing this or not doing that or whatever, keep in mind that this is a NEW STORY. For example, this:

...is based on stuff that comes from the old canon. There is an EXCELLENT chance that things won't play out this way at all. I'm not in a position to say one way or the other; the only reason I'm saying anything at all is to avoid having some folks read this and think that is what is "going to occur" in the story. It might be...but it might also be entirely different!

We know you aren't making these decisions, DG, but I have seen nothing at this point in the lore to suggest we are not pointing in this direction, and significant story evidence to suggest we ARE heading in a similar direction. It is fully possible that FFG will completely abandon the entire Clan War and Second Day of Thunder entirely. It is also completely possible that FFG will write Toturi to abandon his name and identity and become Toku.

However, until evidence is provided to the contrary, I will continue to suspect that we are looking at the Clan War starting with the Scorpion Clan Coup (for different reasons and causes, sure, but to the same results) in about a year's time, and then a state of bellum omnium contre omnes in the next two years after that, with a focusing of the Second Day of Thunder in year five.

I will state, however, for the OBVIOUS RECORD, that I have in no way any insight, evidence, or backdoor chatter as a journalist regarding this. I just have my theories and what I would do as a writer and storyteller. If FFG surprises me? Awesome. If not? I still expect it to be a good story.

46 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

We know you aren't making these decisions, DG, but I have seen nothing at this point in the lore to suggest we are not pointing in this direction, and significant story evidence to suggest we ARE heading in a similar direction. It is fully possible that FFG will completely abandon the entire Clan War and Second Day of Thunder entirely. It is also completely possible that FFG will write Toturi to abandon his name and identity and become Toku.

However, until evidence is provided to the contrary, I will continue to suspect that we are looking at the Clan War starting with the Scorpion Clan Coup (for different reasons and causes, sure, but to the same results) in about a year's time, and then a state of bellum omnium contre omnes in the next two years after that, with a focusing of the Second Day of Thunder in year five.

I will state, however, for the OBVIOUS RECORD, that I have in no way any insight, evidence, or backdoor chatter as a journalist regarding this. I just have my theories and what I would do as a writer and storyteller. If FFG surprises me? Awesome. If not? I still expect it to be a good story.

But there are hints that story could go in other directions as well. We obviously have the simmering conflict with the Lion/Crane and Lion/Unicorn which is starting to boil over (possibly with outside help from a to be named source). Tadaka in this version seems far more inclined to be experimenting in areas of Magic that are best left undisturbed than he was in the O5R (the whole Maho/Shadowlands arc for Phoenix didn't really kick off until the Forbidden Knowledge arc (the Imperial version of their stronghold didn't have the economy bonus for giving Shugenja the Shadowlands trait, that showed up in the Emerald edition reprint).

They could very easily go with an alternate monster faction with corrupt Unicorn being driven by the spirits of Meishido (yes I'm sure that is misspelled) talismans or the Elemental imbalance so weakening the empire that a resurgent Shadowlands overrun the Crab.

I still hope that they use the Kolat as a primary villain as they were sadly underused in the previous version and were relegated to mustache twirling from the shadow in far too many cases in the previous version of the game. Their philosophy of the ascension of man over the kami would play well into the concepts of the Perfect Land Sect and the conflict of a weak emperor who has lost the link to the heavens that was the core of his mandate.

35 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

We know you aren't making these decisions, DG, but I have seen nothing at this point in the lore to suggest we are not pointing in this direction, and significant story evidence to suggest we ARE heading in a similar direction. It is fully possible that FFG will completely abandon the entire Clan War and Second Day of Thunder entirely. It is also completely possible that FFG will write Toturi to abandon his name and identity and become Toku.

However, until evidence is provided to the contrary, I will continue to suspect that we are looking at the Clan War starting with the Scorpion Clan Coup (for different reasons and causes, sure, but to the same results) in about a year's time, and then a state of bellum omnium contre omnes in the next two years after that, with a focusing of the Second Day of Thunder in year five.

I will state, however, for the OBVIOUS RECORD, that I have in no way any insight, evidence, or backdoor chatter as a journalist regarding this. I just have my theories and what I would do as a writer and storyteller. If FFG surprises me? Awesome. If not? I still expect it to be a good story.

Not disagreeing at all. I only piped up because your previous post sounded pretty "authoritative", and I wanted to make sure everyone reading it understood it was your prognostication as to how the story was going to unfold, not hard info. I'm not even saying you're wrong--you may be 100% on the money! But no one should ASSUME much of anything that can't be reasonably extrapolated from what's been published so far, which offers a LOT of different ways the story could go!

1 hour ago, DGLaderoute said:

Before anyone gets TOO wrapped around the axle about the Crab or anyone doing this or not doing that or whatever, keep in mind that this is a NEW STORY.

The Tainted Lands preview tries to make that very clear. I found the insistence that the Phoenix would never sink to using maho pretty funny-- methinks the lady doth protest too much!

Yeah I guess there's nothing really more for me to say on the subject. The Last Province Podcast had this fun exercise where they talked about how the clans were better defined by what they wouldn't give up. The Crab clan will give up their honor, give up their dignity, give up their loyalty, give up their lives, but I just feel like the Crab as a clan would never give up the fight. It seems so ingrained in their identity. Maybe individual characters will falter, but the gestalt of the Crab clan should hold true. To me that was the problem with the old story in the context of modern day Crab. Maybe Yori falls, maybe Yakamo falls, maybe Kisada falls, but the Crab clan keeps fighting.

22 minutes ago, phillos said:

Maybe Yori falls, maybe Yakamo falls, maybe Kisada falls, but the Crab clan keeps fighting.

Exactly..... they do keep fighting. They are just changing who they fight for. There is no shame in coming to your senses and switching to the right side.

Looks like Yori is rocking that jade bling though. Three big chunks (could be emeralds, I guess). Not saying that's proof he won't fall, but at least in this initial version of him he's being careful. (Hey, we can always hope for a different outcome, right?)

I'm okay with him falling. I kinda expect it. I guess my concern is kind of a nuanced one on preserving what the Crab clan identity is fundamentally. I'm okay with some of the Crab falling. If they are low on jade then that's certainly gonna happen. Also I mean we gotta give our Shadowlands fans something. Though it would be interesting to see a change that different from the old Crab history.

I think the biggest difference is that in the old game, the coup had already happened, and we were dealing with the fallout. Shoju made his move and attempted to gain the Crab as an ally, which ultimately Kisada told him to pound sand. And so after Kisada essentially crushes any hope that the coup would succeed, those in change after the coup, continue to ignore Kisada's pleas for help at the wall. He gets pissed, and desperate, about being ignored and turns to the dark side.

Where we are now is that we haven't even seen the coup occur, if it ever does, nor have we seen the aftermath.

This time around, we could see a whole new angle, in which the corruption of the Crab isn't as widespread and maybe only a small group of Crab turn bad. Maybe the failure of the Crab this time is that Kisada goes all in on supporting the Mantis to get the aid he needs, that he loses focus on what's going on within the clan and a small faction break off from the clan that turn to darker means of protecting themselves, not realizing the full cost, or thinking they are strong enough to resist the taint.

Maybe this time Kisada doesn't sacrifice his youngest son and Fu Leng doesn't nail him to a war banner. I've got the hammer and nails waiting in my toolbag, but, I'll take the corruption anyway I can get it.

I'm just an RPGer and not published writer but IMO the most interesting thing you could do with Crab right now is kill Kisada. He's shown to be an experienced and competent leader in their intro fiction with everyone in the clan totally supporting him. If he goes down you introduce a power vacuum. Then you set the stage for all sorts of bad stuff at the wall including an certain family daimyo perhaps gaining more influence than he might have otherwise, and Yakamo feels more likely to make really bad decisions than Kisada. Flip the script on that one. Make whatever shady thing Yakamo and Yori end up doing a very unpopular and divisive event for the clan, which drastically and violently splits the clan. Do those things I think it all makes much more sense.

1 hour ago, phillos said:

Flip the script on that one. Make whatever shady thing Yakamo and Yori end up doing a very unpopular and divisive event for the clan, which drastically and violently splits the clan. Do those things I think it all makes much more sense.

So the Yasuki become a Family of the Mantis?

?

Coyote Approved!

19 hours ago, Coyote Walks said:

So the Yasuki become a Family of the Mantis?

?

Coyote Approved!

Well, they do like to shop around for Clan membership...

Also, if Taka's still a Kolat (and Kolat are still a thing), Yoritomo's drive to be recognised as worthwhile without the influence of a Kami may be seen as a good thing.

On 6/18/2018 at 2:55 AM, phillos said:

I'm just an RPGer and not published writer but IMO the most interesting thing you could do with Crab right now is kill Kisada. He's shown to be an experienced and competent leader in their intro fiction with everyone in the clan totally supporting him. If he goes down you introduce a power vacuum. Then you set the stage for all sorts of bad stuff at the wall including an certain family daimyo perhaps gaining more influence than he might have otherwise, and Yakamo feels more likely to make really bad decisions than Kisada. Flip the script on that one. Make whatever shady thing Yakamo and Yori end up doing a very unpopular and divisive event for the clan, which drastically and violently splits the clan. Do those things I think it all makes much more sense.

I would not want my precious clan to go down that dark route and kill away my beloved leader...

Every clan has to fail sometimes (actually most of the time if history is any indicator). If we gotta fail I just want to make sure we fail in a way that doesn't destroy what Crab fans love about the Crab, and also still allows us to feel like we are heroes in our own story. Besides if Kisada dies he certainly will become an blessed ancestor or maybe a Fortune again depending on the circumstances. Can't really complain when your favorite character dies and becomes a deity.

I think the Kisada's old story was more problematic to the character anyway. I'd take a heroic death over the alternative. I mean how do you get behind the guy when he continues to lead the Crab after they sacrifice one son and nail him to a banner and then give the other son's name to an oni. Feels like he should have known better.

55 minutes ago, phillos said:

I mean how do you get behind the guy when he continues to lead the Crab after they sacrifice one son and nail him to a banner and then give the other son's name to an oni. Feels like he should have known better.

It's all a matter of perspective

I always thought he did what he did because he did know better.

He certainly was an amazing Shadowlands personality. Along with almost all the other prominent Crab personalities at the time.