Hi All,

For the last couple of years X-wing has been dominated by lists that hold 2-3 powerful aces. Maybe you see a list like 4 Wookies, but the idea of just a few ships has been the dominate philosophy for the game. I have found that people have a hard time breaking out if that style of list building. When I helped run Assault on Greyskull at GenCon last year, I kept seeing lists with just a few ships loaded out, even when we highly encouraged not to (and built the missions that way). Those who were stuck in that mindset didn't do well. It seems hard for people to break out if that.

Note....the utter efficiency of all one type of ship was another strategy. It was pretty rock/paper/scissor, though. It either really worked well or didn't.

The game designers have stated that Imperials will be about strong leaders and affordable generics. They started it you like just a few high powered aces that First Order might be more up your alley. Not too sure on Rebels, but do know synergy is there. Might translate to mid sized lists or a few aces. Scum seems to have the "we have crazy tricks" that could probably translate into whatever you want.

I've been thinking about this and the fear of Luke Gunner. If you heard a 3 ship list, I think Fat Han is more of s terror. If you have a balanced list with different tools (like ion) then i think he's not as powerful. It seems to me that having a number of different ships with different tools is the way to go. When I think if Imps, I think of 3-4 Tie Fighters, a support ship (leader or tools), and some form of heavy hitter. Ace, mini ace, tough ship, or ordnance platform.

A toolbox list could have a lot of things to deal with the variety of enemy. Cheap blockers are good. Support to give synergy (or debuff enemy). Some sort of heavy hitter to bring the pain. The game seems really open to possibilities with this type of a list. I see things like one Tie Aggressor with Ion weapons as really effective. Or maybe a cheap Attack Shuttle for the Ion turret. Ships that normally don't see play could end up quite effective. Maybe Tie Punishers with different ordnance (ion and damage) become good multi purpose ships. I see flexibility as the key.

Am I the only one that sees things this way? I just saw a thread about Tie Phantoms in 2.0 and someone wanting to run 3 of them in a list. I feel like those types of lists won't do well in the new edition. For one thing, I think a list of all (or a lot) of generics will do well. So, more shots on a few aces will hurt the aces. You can't token stack or arc dodge like you used to and even the Y-wing can Barel Roll these days.

Anyone else have thoughts on this? People feel I'm wrong?

I'm optimistic that this strategy will be effective. The reduction of passive mods (if true in practice) makes blocking and firepower from 2 dice generics much more effective. Likewise, if people default to their 1.0 fat ships, the extra mass from the generics can dilute that firepower.

I think you might be overly optimistic about what will fit in a list, though. Miniswarm, Support Ship, and Ace seems too big for 100 points. At the least, I expect it will trend much more toward a 3 ship Miniswarm than 4.

I'm very interested in Ace/Miniswarm as an archetype, maybe Ace/Support, and definitely interested in massed mid-level generics.

I'd love to see an aces and mini swarm be good, but the swarm would prob have to be cheap ships points wise.

One thing i'm looking forward to in 2.0 is building lists with the same initiative. I did this all the time in 1.0 using VI and Adapt. and its going to be easy in 2.0. So something like three initiative 4 e-wings, one of them Darklighter, sounds super fun depending on if it fits points wise (the squad being competitive is another thing altogether).

What do people think about Alpha Strike squads with high initiative and missiles/torps. I think its harder to get 4 hits on ordnance is 2.0, but you still retain the possibility of killing something outright before it shoots - that's going to hurt lists with a few 3-4 mid-range ships.

11 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I think you might be overly optimistic about what will fit in a list, though. Miniswarm, Support Ship, and Ace seems too big for 100 points. At the least, I expect it will trend much more toward a 3 ship Miniswarm than 4.

I agree that a full blown ace, support ship, and swarm will be too much. I fully expect Ace and Mini Swarm to be effective. What I see more is a "heavy hitter" role, not ace. Maybe a mid PS "pocket ace" or a heavy hitter like a Tie Punisher or generic tough guy. I think you can get enough cheap ships, synergy, and firepower in a list that can do well. You most likely won't have the high Init over Aces, but I don't see that as required anymore.

Ace + 3 Strikers is something I think could fit and do some work depending on what Init they are and if the Ace ends up with room for a missile or can just be a defender.

As far as 3 ship Imp lists...I do think two missile aces and a reasonable 3rd ship thats not a pure support ship will be ok. It all depends on what has the force and has an ordinance slot. I plan to run Vader with Prockets and Grand Quiz with Prockets plus whatever the most flexible 3rd ship is that I can fit, maybe a named striker, a generic Gunboat, or Tie bomber.

Having 2 high int 5 dice force modified missiles and one bomb seems like it would at least have a chance against a swarm.

I think the changes to the Evade action will help keep Aces in check, thus allowing generics and swarms to be viable.

4+ ships in a list were always my favorites in 1.0, and from what I've seen I still think I'm going to be just fine.

2 minutes ago, JohnBoo said:

I think the changes to the Evade action will help keep Aces in check, thus allowing generics and swarms to be viable.

I agree! Lots of people focus on 2 attack die ships, but you can mix 2 and 3 ship lists. Or....thinking about X-wings. It would take probably take all 3 shots to kill 1 T-65. The retaliatory strike can kill one Ace. It's not a good exchange.

I think ordnance will be useful, but not sure about a full alpha strike list. It will depend. The fewer enemy ships the stronger an alpha strike list is.

Having one ordnance ship in a toolbox list would help cut the numbers down fast. You can take out one key ship in their list....or even just whittle the numbers down against you pretty fast.

35 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I agree that a full blown ace, support ship, and swarm will be too much. I fully expect Ace and Mini Swarm to be effective. What I see more is a "heavy hitter" role, not ace. Maybe a mid PS "pocket ace" or a heavy hitter like a Tie Punisher or generic tough guy. I think you can get enough cheap ships, synergy, and firepower in a list that can do well. You most likely won't have the high Init over Aces, but I don't see that as required anymore.

I agree. Once points are balanced, we should see an interaction if Mid PS>Low PS, Low PS> High PS, and High PS > Mid PS. The idea being that having a small PS advantage (Initiative in 2.0) means you didn't pay much for the advantage, so can leverage that advantage to overcome slight jousting inefficiencies. Whereas a large PS advantage is a lot of inefficiencies to overcome.

Things have to be priced accurately to reach this equilibrium, though, so it might not get this way right out of the gate.

Anyway, if balance there is reached, you probably want 2 of the three legs. Ace/Miniswarm, for example, helps you have a lo of efficiency, but with a powerful piece that overcomes the Initiative advantage of Mid level ships.

18 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I think ordnance will be useful, but not sure about a full alpha strike list. It will depend. The fewer enemy ships the stronger an alpha strike list is.

I disagree. I think alpha strike's low point is versus an average number of average health ships.

If you're running a few strong ships, alpha strike is obviously good if it removes one.

If you're running a swarm of weak ships, the alpha is still good if you can remove a bunch of ships. If you shoot let's say 3 heavily modded torps and a TIE swarm and can reliably remove 3 Ties, then the alpha is still good.

IMO the low point of alpha strike lists is versus ships that are beefy enough so they need multiple shots, but aren't expensive enough so spending 2-3 torps to remove one is worth it. Stuff like X-wing and B-wing generics for example.

@Biophysical I think the power of high PS aces has been reduced. Not gone, but reduced. The lack of double repositioning means they can't dodge all the arcs of someone who successfully guesses where you go. Blocking is also going to happen more often with more cheap ships on the table. The lack of token stacking and super poweredness of Aces will also mean their firepower will not be as hellacious. I still think aces will be good, but not as.... apex predator as they used to be.

@LordBlades you could be right. I think some of it depends on reliably killing a Tie Fighter with one ordnance. Is that still reliably possible now? If not, then the Swarm is better. I think 2.0 is going to be fun!

My favorite sort of list is a 4/5 ship "Toolbox" - 1 ace to make plays, 1 utility ship to lend a control/flanking/support function, 2-3 efficient generics for raw firepower/health/board footprint - I'm hoping this archetype will be viable again. Paul Heaver's Worlds 2015 list is a good example of what I mean:

Poe Dameron w/ VI, R2-D2, AutoThrusters - ace
Gold w/ R3-A2, TLT, BTL-A4 - utility
Gold w/ TLT - efficiency
Bandit - efficiency

4 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

My favorite sort of list is a 4/5 ship "Toolbox" - 1 ace to make plays, 1 utility ship to lend a control/flanking/support function, 2-3 efficient generics for raw firepower/health/board footprint - I'm hoping this archetype will be viable again. Paul Heaver's Worlds 2015 list is a good example of what I mean:

Poe Dameron w/ VI, R2-D2, AutoThrusters - ace
Gold w/ R3-A2, TLT, BTL-A4 - utility
Gold w/ TLT - efficiency
Bandit - efficiency

I was thinking of Paul H's Rebel lists as an example of a Toolbox, but my brain is more wired to Imperials.

I do think Rebels could do more of the "support" role mixed in with their regular ships. They can do more synergy with abilities and such on their regular ships. They might not require a dedicated support ship. Things like Garven Dreis or other mid PS guys can fill that role.

@Biophysical Oh, forgot to mention that the mid PS guys can be more than just their PS. Their special abilities might make them more of a heavy hitter or give synergy (with regular abilities or Talents). I think there is more room for these guys for what abilities they have since PS isn't required anymore.

I’m looking forward to flying Ace+Ordnance+Support. I always tried to make it work in 1e, but support was never good enough and the ordnance ship always blew up before it could bring pain, leaving way more than the Ace could handle. Maybe it’ll actually be a good build in 2.0

3 hours ago, LordBlades said:

If you're running a swarm of weak ships, the alpha is still good if you can remove a bunch of ships. If you shoot let's say 3 heavily modded torps and a TIE swarm and can reliably remove 3 Ties, then the alpha is still good. 

That’s a pretty big if, though. Four hits max against three agility and likely a focus...

Cluster Missiles could probably do the trick, come to think of it, if you have a bunch of mods. It’ll definitely be interesting building out an alpha strike list with more of a toolbox of missiles to choose from; generally, there’s always been a missile that was just “best.” Plasmas>protons, or concs were most efficient, then homing because of x7, then cruise, then poons...I like the idea of kitting out different ships with different ordnance as part of a “toolbox” approach.

Cluster Missiles are not good. Any optimistic appraisal of alpha striking a swarm has to accept the fact that it's best die roll on the opening turn will be negated by Iden Versio. That's one Torp that is just not happening.

4 hours ago, heychadwick said:

@Biophysical Oh, forgot to mention that the mid PS guys can be more than just their PS. Their special abilities might make them more of a heavy hitter or give synergy (with regular abilities or Talents). I think there is more room for these guys for what abilities they have since PS isn't required anymore.

I agree, but generally those abilities will have an impact on the squad to increase its efficiency, which is why I was approaching it in very general terms.

18 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Cluster Missiles are not good. Any optimistic appraisal of alpha striking a swarm has to accept the fact that it's best die roll on the opening turn will be negated by Iden Versio. That's one Torp that is just not happening.

I've been trying to figure out in what context Cluster Missiles are intended to even be good? I guess they boost Attack 2 ships to 3 dice at range 2 and have a lot of charges? The bonus attack against another target seems like a throwaway most of the time since most ships that would be flying in formation have enough native defenses to shrug off a 3 dice unmodified shot most of the time. Burning the generous charge total on Saturation Salvo might be ok, but that seems like throwing good money after bad? Using it as fodder for Chopper crew shield regen seems to be the best use I've thought of so far...

2 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

I've been trying to figure out in what context Cluster Missiles are intended to even be good? I guess they boost Attack 2 ships to 3 dice at range 2 and have a lot of charges? The bonus attack against another target seems like a throwaway most of the time since most ships that would be flying in formation have enough native defenses to shrug off a 3 dice unmodified shot most of the time. Burning the generous charge total on Saturation Salvo might be ok, but that seems like throwing good money after bad? Using it as fodder for Chopper crew shield regen seems to be the best use I've though of so far...

Honestly Saturation Salvo seems like the primary use. The secondary ability is bad, unless Y-wing swarms are a thing.

24 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Cluster Missiles are not good. Any optimistic appraisal of alpha striking a swarm has to accept the fact that it's best die roll on the opening turn will be negated by Iden Versio. That's one Torp that is just not happening.

Oh god, I've been reading Iden's ability as blocking 1 damage this whole time. Tie Swarm hype.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

Cluster Missiles are not good. Any optimistic appraisal of alpha striking a swarm has to accept the fact that it's best die roll on the opening turn will be negated by Iden Versio. That's one Torp that is just not happening.

Yeah, with Iden in play alpha striking a swarm won't happen, unless you can get some 5+ z95s shooting at it.

9 hours ago, heychadwick said:

Hi All,

The game designers have stated that Imperials will be about strong leaders and affordable generics. They started it you like just a few high powered aces that First Order might be more up your alley. Not too sure on Rebels, but do know synergy is there. Might translate to mid sized lists or a few aces. Scum seems to have the "we have crazy tricks" that could probably translate into whatever you want.

Am I the only one that sees things this way? I just saw a thread about Tie Phantoms in 2.0 and someone wanting to run 3 of them in a list. I feel like those types of lists won't do well in the new edition. For one thing, I think a list of all (or a lot) of generics will do well. So, more shots on a few aces will hurt the aces. You can't token stack or arc dodge like you used to and even the Y-wing can Barel Roll these days.

Anyone else have thoughts on this? People feel I'm wrong?

I’ll chime in since I made the Phantom thread your referring to. That particular scenario is strictly using Echo, Whisper and some other Ace as previously it was impossible. Much like using them in a similar fashion to Triple Xwing’s in 1.0 for the cost. Remember in 1.0 Echo and Whisper fully kitted out is upwards of 85-90 points. With the Price reduction the thought is can you put someone else that is a bigger threat with them to minimize the focus on them that had previously not been available.

In my Imperials in 2.0 thread, I was talking similarly about options your bringing up here with swarms and mini-swarms returning to prevalence. What we still need to learn about 2.0 is; what does a name get me/cost me compared to mr. generic on the bench over there? Remember the shift to Aces for Imperials came about for a few reasons. One was keeping them around was easier in part due to their extra skills and EPT access. The other being in a competitive format flying a swarm was draining both mentally and physically. Swarms also didn’t hold up well against bigger fortresses and multiple TLT’s. Which, now with some of those nasty items removed, it gives Swarms the space they lost back.

I mean seriously if I can get Echo, Whisper and 3 Strikers on the table at once due to cost I may salivate. Heck Echo with a loaded up reaper and Strikers could be a ton of fun. We just have to wait and see what happens. However, everything is theory and conjecture until we get not only point cost, but slots available as well. So seeing what others want of ideas should be encouraged from all plausible angles.