Also... I think we will get 6 pilots for the Defender

IN?? unnamed generic

IN3 Valen Rudor

IN4 Onxy Squadron Ace

IN4 Ryad

IN?? Unnamed Ace (Hoping for IN5 Marek Steele)

IN5 Rexler Brath

Have gotten the majority of my tournament wins with triple x7 defenders, and two close-ones with twin /D-ion defenders and Sabacc, I am very baffeled with the 2.0 changes to the TIE defender: There is NO need for it to have boost or the evade on the action bar. The ship is a heavy jouster, it is not an arc-dodging interceptor (boost) or a nimble TIE fighter (evade), it is difficult to hit because it flies FAST! But it is heavy and cumbersome. If the additional shield and those "fixes" makes it >67 and that keep me from flying 3 TIE defenders in 2.0, I am a very sad imperial pilot.

Also why not use the new configurations used for the x-wing for the TIE Defender? One configuration to add the x7 and another to add the /D.

I find it unfathomable the designers have taken something that worked very well in 1.0 (rewarding good flying and jousting) and killed it in the transition to 2.0 - it is like the designers don't really know what they are doing and completely out of touch with the playerbase.

1 hour ago, Ravncat said:

Did they though? if Tie D is gone, that's a nerf. Cost decrease from X/7 gone is a "nerf" Lack of PTL and lack of green k-turns seriously changes Ryad. Juke going to bullseye arc (is it bullseye?) would be a nerf to the x7 title. The increased action bar is a nerf*. A lot of the action economy cards that make defenders monsters in 1.0 just aren't there anymore... Predator, Expertise, PTL, Tie/D ... At least Rexlar's Ability isn't upgrade card dependent anymore.

--- *Hear me out on that one.... If we believe that the action bar actions have some kind of efficiency value, then values are not static per action per chassis. let's say for the sake of argument that each action costs 2 points to add to a ship - then a ship with 1 action, (and unhindered from using the action) gets to perform that action every turn, but a ship with 2 actions, is wasting 2 points per turn, since it can only use half of its actions. The defender, with 5 actions - is using 1/5th of its actions each turn - wasting the other 4. The burden to choose the correct action is much higher. The opportunity cost is higher on the Defender than on the X-wing. Full throttle (X7 ability) is almost required to mitigate this, we get 2/5ths of our actions used, but only when performing a three speed maneuver. Yes, i'll give you that there is value in having the ability to choose from more actions. Brath's ability requires the opponent have damage as well, it won't likely trigger immediately - esp at high pilot skill.

The game's overall re-balanced action economy (and pseudo action economy) is pushing the defender down hard. and make up for the cost and lost offensive output - since you're likely taking a single ship in its place. Action advantage is still a thing, and the Defender is going to have to work hard to keep up. if you can bring a defender and I can bring 3 tie fighters, what happens? I've got a slight numbers advantage - and if I can block you, my other 2 ties are likely to deal damage. This battle is heavily positioning dependent.

I agree with some of your points, especially about action and pseudo-action economy getting worse, although it did gets worse for everybody so, while the Defender might be worse, so are his targets.

I don't consider removing TIE/D a nerf as the x7 was the significantly better competitive option in 1.0.

I also think you greatly overstate the numbers advantage. Consider your Defender vs. 3 TIEs EXAMPLE. Let's say you block him. Your 2 2 dice attacks deal 2 or so damage to him, and he deals 1-2 damage in return to one of your TIEs. Next round, he K-turns behind you, gets his action and blows up the TIE he damaged before it can shoot again. You're now down to 2 TIEs vs. a pretty healthy Defender that's also behind you.

32 minutes ago, Sciencius said:

Have gotten the majority of my tournament wins with triple x7 defenders, and two close-ones with twin /D-ion defenders and Sabacc, I am very baffeled with the 2.0 changes to the TIE defender: There is NO need for it to have boost or the evade on the action bar. The ship is a heavy jouster, it is not an arc-dodging interceptor (boost) or a nimble TIE fighter (evade), it is difficult to hit because it flies FAST! But it is heavy and cumbersome. If the additional shield and those "fixes" makes it >67 and that keep me from flying 3 TIE defenders in 2.0, I am a very sad imperial pilot.

Also why not use the new configurations used for the x-wing for the TIE Defender? One configuration to add the x7 and another to add the /D.

I find it unfathomable the designers have taken something that worked very well in 1.0 (rewarding good flying and jousting) and killed it in the transition to 2.0 - it is like the designers don't really know what they are doing and completely out of touch with the playerbase.

No, boost and evade make sense. The ship was very agile in all of the old source material; The red 1 and 2 turns are due to the ship's incredible speed, not its bulk.

Losing Tie/D is frustrating, though. I guess we can hope that it's just getting more playtesting. Actually, my dream scenario would be a Tie/D configuration for the legends Defender, and a simple red die buff (Either bullseye-only or just all the time) for the Rebels Defender which just carried laser cannons.

As far as the point cost... Well, the x7 defender, even after counterplay was added via the nerf, is above the efficiency they seem to be going for in 2.0. Without any changes, it was going to lose the discount if not go higher to something like ~63. The buffs increase that even more, but... I don't think they're worth 9 points. Although... Given the limited number of pilots in the Rebel conversion kit and Rexler's reveal, I wonder if the Onyx Squadron Veteran is the only generic the defender has- That might actually fit the pricing. Although I do hope FFG has the decency to give us two onyx squadron baseplates if that's the case.

I would be very disappointed if you could not have like 3 Tie Defender grunts in a list

I just hope Vessery and Maarek are coming back at some point.
I don't remember anyone asking for Valen Rudor, one of the most meh characters out of Rebels. Another bumbling fool imperial trope replacing the star of the TIE Fighter game (Maarek), and the most popular Defender pilot in this game (Vessery).

16 hours ago, LordBlades said:

I don't consider removing TIE/D a nerf as the x7 was the significantly better competitive option in 1.0.

I also think you greatly overstate the numbers advantage.

Tie D can multiply action advantage in ways X-7 can't in 1.0. I'd say that the two titles are closer than you think in 1.0. Expertise Ion Tie D Vessery is a monster, with 5 equivalent actions per round, preventing bomb drops - can shut down miranda or nym for example. having the barrel and or focus for defense is nearly as good as having the evade for defense, if you spend the focus on offense anyway.

The 3 ties vs 1 defender situation, should see at range 2, a .299 expected average hits from the defender on a single tie (assuming no focus spend on attack) and something like .293 expected average hits from the combined 3 attacks, assuming 2 focus vs 1 focus/evade stack. (It's a little tricky to compress those attacks together though). That number doesn't change for the 1v2 + blocker scenario for the defender, but goes up to 1.22 expected damage or so for the ties... roll it out, you'll see variance become a big player in that match, spikes usually in the defenders favor, but average results slide the match towards the 3 ties the longer it takes to kill the first tie if they can maintain blocking. (But we are ignoring the tie abilities, and the rest of each list and assuming every roll stays at range 2.

You also assume that you can just k-turn out of the block and into shots on the ties, but the opponent knows you have that white k-turn. and could block it again, forcing you to fly straight and lose all shots. hence it really becomes a positioning battle.

(In 1.0, the above vessery expects to deal 2.6 damage to a tie, while taking .5, and procedes to wipe the ties out before taking more than 2 shields... 2.0 looks like you can actually have an interesting dogfight between 3 ties and a defender without just assigning victory to the defender)

edit, oops those numbers assume evade adds a result, technically the tie groups damage is a slight bit better

1 hour ago, Sciencius said:

I find it unfathomable the designers have taken something that worked very well in 1.0 (rewarding good flying and jousting) and killed it in the transition to 2.0 - it is like the designers don't really know what they are doing and completely out of touch with the playerbase.

I'm not sure I follow.

1 hour ago, Azrapse said:

I just hope Vessery and Maarek are coming back at some point.
I don't remember anyone asking for Valen Rudor, one of the most meh characters out of Rebels. Another bumbling fool imperial trope replacing the star of the TIE Fighter game (Maarek), and the most popular Defender pilot in this game (Vessery).

....I was hoping for Valen to make it

1 hour ago, Azrapse said:

I just hope Vessery and Maarek are coming back at some point.
I don't remember anyone asking for Valen Rudor, one of the most meh characters out of Rebels. Another bumbling fool imperial trope replacing the star of the TIE Fighter game (Maarek), and the most popular Defender pilot in this game (Vessery).

New content >>>>>>>> old content in the eyes of FFG (and justifiably so from a marketing perspective). I don't expect Marek or Vessery to come back, and I don't mind at all.

2.0 Defenders are going to be little more than two ship lists. Based on the testing I've done against them, they are absolute monsters now. Everything else got dialed back, but outside of PTL, the defenders have gotten better in every single way. More shields, a better dial, can now (likely) equip both cannons and missiles, afterburners, multiple mod slots, and a general doing away with or getting rid of all of the things that they don't like such as TLT, Bombs, and Harpoons means that the new defenders are forces to be reckoned with; even if you can only fly just the two ships in a list. The named pilots are just icing on the cake given how the generics can eat multiple attacks and not suffer any damage whatsoever. Even multiple munitions shots will only barely scratch the shields when the defender is focus evading. This is good, as it feels proper for the defender to be the most deadly and fear inducing ship that the imperials can field.

19 minutes ago, Ravncat said:

Tie D can multiply action advantage in ways X-7 can't in 1.0. I'd say that the two titles are closer than you think in 1.0.

My assessment is based on the meta-wing data, where x7 is placed significantly higher than /d.

9 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I'm not sure I follow.

Tripple defender list is a jouster list you know ?

18 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I'm not sure I follow.

Hey, my rolling three dice 4 times with prema-focus takes SKILL.

10 hours ago, Aircraft Terrier said:

My good friend who's expressed interest in getting back into X-wing for 2.0 has a love affair with the Defender, so I imagine no matter what I play, I'll find out how good the Defender is either way. Like DR4CO said, the amount of buff they've gotten is impressive, so I imagine they'll be pretty scary. I'm curious to see what those lists look like though, since you can't just default to 3 of 'em, and I'm not sure if just 2 loaded up defenders will be enough.

Two loaded up defenders will absolutely be enough. They can take HLC, probably missiles too, and they simply do not die when you shoot at them because of 3/4 dice and focus evade stacking. They are easily the best new imperial ships by a wide margin. One defender can easily solo multiple enemy ships; the other one is there to just take care of the leftovers.

imo the only "nerf" the defender got at all is loss of Vessery and Ryad isnt virtually impossible to stress out.

Vessery in this new meta of a lot less multiple mods would be brutal.
I actually dont want Maarek in the defender tbh, w/o the TIE/D dualshot or mangler it simply wont be able to force crits to abuse his ability.

TIE/D was niche but 99/100 of the time it was overcosted. x7 was mandatory to use defenders since it not only made them cheap enough to bother but they didnt die to 2 freaking shots (due to lack of repositioning and stress really, really hurts nonryad defenders). However i still didnt like x7 because it stagnated builds...running anything other than x7 + Mk2 engines + Juke was laughably bad.

They’re the meta release valve for the meta if 2-dice swarms are too good.

I don't get the complaining. Defenders aren't supposed to be cheap. They're supposed to be the absolute best starfighter in the galaxy with basically no weakness. They hit like a ton of bricks and can take multiple shots without a scratch, yet they're also stupid fast and quite nimble. They should be far and away the most expensive small-base ship, and having no more than 2 to a list just makes sense thematically. I'd love to fly 2 built-up aces or two naked generics with support.

Also I for one am seriously hoping we still get a I1 defender to ensure that 4k doesn't get blocked. I absolutely loved the Delta Squads. Here's hoping.

One of my most effective lists is two defenders and a tie shuttle buffing them, only taking two won't really hit me too hard.

5 hours ago, LordBlades said:

Now, between defenders and Vader, it looks like I might give them another go.

I think Vader+Defender+TIE/ln blocker could definitely work.

Sorta reminding me of the 'ol Rebel salad days...

Why not Vult Skarris ? Or may be we will have the defender elite version ?

9 minutes ago, Arkanta974 said:

Why not Vult Skarris ? Or may be we will have the defender elite version ?

Still crossing my fingers for Skerris as a 5 and Syndulla in an X-Wing, A-Wing, or B-Wing (I'm not picky) as a 6.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I don't get the complaining. Defenders aren't supposed to be cheap. They're supposed to be the absolute best starfighter in the galaxy with basically no weakness. They hit like a ton of bricks and can take multiple shots without a scratch, yet they're also stupid fast and quite nimble. They should be far and away the most expensive small-base ship, and having no more than 2 to a list just makes sense thematically. I'd love to fly 2 built-up aces or two naked generics with support.

Also I for one am seriously hoping we still get a I1 defender to ensure that 4k doesn't get blocked. I absolutely loved the Delta Squads. Here's hoping.

My complaint is exactly that. I want it to be true to itself, by having a doubletap and system slot.

I've flown 1E Defenders, a LOT - both X7 and D versions. I love the changes they've made for 2E, since the Defender is supposed to be a true space superiority craft. It can do everything the best Rebel fighter can do and more. There are plenty of variables we don't know about yet, but the baseline ship is a beast - more than it ever was in 1E. Two per list is almost overkill - it should really be a centerpiece the rest of the list is built around (as depicted in Rebels - one Defender flanked by a pair of Squints).

I can't remember if they kept the Optimized Prototype limitation of only being available to ships with 3 or fewer shields, but that could be one of several reasons the Defender got an extra shield. Another major factor is the nerf on Evades, which I love - now Evade maximizes a ship's agility instead of unnaturally increasing it. It's likely the Defender will still have a cannon slot and they may surprise us with some new cannon ability that permits Defenders to fire similarly to the D model, but that's as much speculation as the thought that it can't fire primaries and cannons (it could be a specific cannon for Defenders alone - a special Ion cannon that fire in conjunction with the primaries - maybe +1 die, but a minimum of one hit must be converted to an Ion Token).

It's ALL speculation at this point. Here's my big speculation - we will no longer have a low Initiative Defender. Minimum will be Init3. I'd be perfectly happy with this, as I feel Initiative still represents a pilot's skill to an extent and only the best pilots would ever be given a premier fighter. I'm looking forward to anything and everything they give me in the Imperial Conversion Kit and I know the new Defender will feature prominently in my 2E lists, along with Squints which I've always loved. I think they will fit together now better than ever, which might be yet another reason why Defenders have gained Boost. It's gonna be fun shooting up Rebs with my shiny new Imps!

Seen people post that Valen Rudor is confirmed as a defender pilot, I missed it so wondering if true, do we know his ability and initiative?